2022 Victorian State Election-November 26

[The Punter]

Here's a helpful tip for folks;

If you think Dan Andrews' government is "far-left", or even just firmly "left-wing", you're operating on an outdated political compass.

Just out of morbid curiosity, what is the Andrews Government not doing that they could be doing that would be described as "firmly left-wing"?

There haven't been many governments in Australia to the left of where Andrews is now, and the only one in Victorian post-war history that would come close would be the Cain/Kirner governments (who also had the dubious honour of caring about transparency and integrity, unlike the current government).

And perhaps I just don't agree with you. It's a problem for many around here, being so used to this being a safe space for fellow travellers to harmlessly compete on how much they can agree with each other.

That and being selectively quoted by the boss.

 

[PJays]

You can put your head in the sand as much as you want, but you clearly have a skewed perspective. As Gralin said, you definitely come across as a person who thinks of themself as a "centrist" but is actually conservative and you're in denial about it.

Well, since my political views are of such interest...

My views on the "big issues" - economics, national security, tax policy, energy policy, climate change- generally centrist with occasionally some left (anti Stage 3 tax cuts) and others right (In favour of a national discussion on SMR's in the energy mix, they might be a good complement to Labor's necessary investment in renewables)

Social views- mostly right on matters of free speech, freedom of religion, family values, transgender issues, with notable exceptions on the left

• Both major parties have shirked Australia's commitment to 0.7% foreign aid. Liberal much worse- as foreign aid as a % of GDP has declined and is at one of the lowest levels in 40 years.

• Humanitarian refugees - Labor increased following the recommendations of a report from 2012, before Liberal decreased to original levels upon taking government in 2013. The standard intake remains too low- although Liberal have, to their credit, occasionally instigated one-off intakes - eg Syria (2015-16 ish) and Afghanistan (this year).

• Housing- neither major party doing enough about housing affordability. It's a massive issue for those under 40. Capping negative gearing to $10,000 per tax return, adjusting the CGT discount to 25% instead of 50% on real estate might be two starting points on tax policy but realistically they'll achieve little. There needs to be more urgent focus and energy on this topic from both majors.

 

[Millky95]

Fun reminder: Left and Right refers to economics on the political compass. Authoritarian and Libertarian is the social scale.

You can be left economically and still love dictators.

Do the test, let's not be ignorant

 

[PJays]

Here's a helpful tip for folks;

If you think Dan Andrews' government is "far-left", or even just firmly "left-wing", you're operating on an outdated political compass.

I get the sense you're playing semantics again, because you think "centre-left" is not "left-wing".

But Andrews is not a "centrist". What indicates Andrews is "left" of centre:

• High spending, resulting in Victoria having a debt projected to be larger than NSW, QLD and Tas combined by 2026 according to official budget papers ($167.5 billion vs $159.2 billion). Public service wages up to $32 billion, from $18 billion in 2014. Government expenditure grown by 10% a year since 2014 compared to average 6% amongst other states.

• The covid approach that was most firmly in favour of extended lockdowns. (Possible exception WA who kept their borders locked until about March this year). Kept covid vaccine mandates for non-health/aged care workers going longer than other states. Some states didn't even have mandates for office workers at all, eg South Australia.

• The most socially "progressive" laws in Australia. Conversion therapy laws that extended the definition of conversion therapy beyond the definition used in other Australian states where similar laws were introduced. Euthanasia laws. Bans on protestors outside abortion clinics. Rules that dictate the job requirements of religious schools (a position not shared by Federal Labor).

 

[The Punter]

Well, since my political views are of such interest...

My views on the "big issues" - economics, national security, tax policy, energy policy, climate change- generally centrist with occasionally some left (anti Stage 3 tax cuts) and others right (In favour of a national discussion on SMR's in the energy mix, they might be a good complement to Labor's necessary investment in renewables)

Social views- mostly right on matters of free speech, freedom of religion, family values, transgender issues, with notable exceptions on the left

• Both major parties have shirked Australia's commitment to 0.7% foreign aid. Liberal much worse- as foreign aid as a % of GDP has declined and is at one of the lowest levels in 40 years.

• Humanitarian refugees - Labor increased following the recommendations of a report from 2012, before Liberal decreased to original levels upon taking government in 2013. The standard intake remains too low- although Liberal have, to their credit, occasionally instigated one-off intakes - eg Syria (2015-16 ish) and Afghanistan (this year).

• Housing- neither major party doing enough about housing affordability. It's a massive issue for those under 40. Capping negative gearing to $10,000 per tax return, adjusting the CGT discount to 25% instead of 50% on real estate might be two starting points on tax policy but realistically they'll achieve little. There needs to be more urgent focus and energy on this topic from both majors.

You're about to get told you are not a centrist.

 

[PJays]

Fun reminder: Left and Right refers to economics on the political compass. Authoritarian and Libertarian is the social scale.

You can be left economically and still love dictators.

Do the test, let's not be ignorant

Yes, thanks for the reminder.

I prefer nuanced takes but I'm just catering to the common parlance, which is that social conservatism means "right" and social progressivism means "left"

 

[PJays]

You're about to get told you are not a centrist.

Surely not. I haven't heard that one before

 

[Saint]

Just out of morbid curiosity, what is the Andrews Government not doing that they could be doing that would be described as "firmly left-wing"?

There haven't been many governments in Australia to the left of where Andrews is now, and the only one in Victorian post-war history that would come close would be the Cain/Kirner governments (who also had the dubious honour of caring about transparency and integrity, unlike the current government).

And perhaps I just don't agree with you. It's a problem for many around here, being so used to this being a safe space for fellow travellers to harmlessly compete on how much they can agree with each other.

That and being selectively quoted by the boss.

I think you're overlooking or deliberately ignoring the fact that the population has shifted to the left on many issues.

This ALP might be more left wing than previous ALP Govts, but let's not forget how backwards the ALP was, anti-immigration, anti-gay marriage, anti-euthanasia. All of these things are supported by a majority of people (greater than 50%, which is greater than ALP first preferences).

Maybe the Age hasn't moved at all, but the population has moved so that it's now right of centre.

That's the thing about progressives, they track progress of the people which arcs toward justice.

Worth remembering that much of the Liberal Party is further left than the old Liberal Party on things like xenophobia and homophobia.

Both parties have lurched to the right economically, since the 70's and 80's. But socially, all have moved to the left.

 

[Dave]

Which places?

and which people? What are their names? Where do they live?

 

[The Punter]

I think you're overlooking or deliberately ignoring the fact that the population has shifted to the left on many issues.

This ALP might be more left wing than previous ALP Govts, but let's not forget how backwards the ALP was, anti-immigration, anti-gay marriage, anti-euthanasia. All of these things are supported by a majority of people (greater than 50%, which is greater than ALP first preferences).

Maybe the Age hasn't moved at all, but the population has moved so that it's now right of centre.

That's the thing about progressives, they track progress of the people which arcs toward justice.

Worth remembering that much of the Liberal Party is further left than the old Liberal Party on things like xenophobia and homophobia.

Both parties have lurched to the right economically, since the 70's and 80's. But socially, all have moved to the left.

I don't ascribe political tendencies to media outlets such as The Age or the ABC. I think on the main, they report the news.

I'm not going to get into an argument about what constitutes justice, but I'm sure there are as many views on what that means as there are bums pointing to the ground.

If the population has moved left, then the population is left. The Cain/Kirner and Bracks/Brumby governments weren't anti-immigration. IMO Andrews leads a comfortably left-of-centre government.

And I'm getting in before someone suggests having any sort of tolerance for capitalism precludes one from being left-of-centre. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Just wanna circle back to the bolded. Bringing unvaxxed health workers back in could have even more disastrous effects as they will likely spread covid more and put immunocompromised patients at risk. And there's not hundreds of workers that left due to the mandates. It's likely less than 2 or 3% of the workforce. What a stupid suggestion.


Come at us you rat dog Adem.

2-3% may well be hundreds though; Northern Hospital alone has 7500 staff (from the website), the other metro hospitals would be similar (at least 10)
I think the rate is less than 2-3%
and the other unconsidered is how many of those who left, have found employment outside of health care and have no intent to return (both out of necessity and out of choice, I know of one nurse who left nursing pre covid to become a road digger)

 

[Crankyhawk]

Fun reminder: Left and Right refers to economics on the political compass. Authoritarian and Libertarian is the social scale.

You can be left economically and still love dictators.

Do the test, let's not be ignorant

Though where does the trans/ LGBT rights come into it? Traditionally being pro trans/LGBT is seen as "left" (as per the mediafactcheckbias site) though I would argue it is also libertarian (freedom to have consensual sex with whomever you want, or to identify as whoever you want)

 

[Crankyhawk]

You're about to get told you are not a centrist.

heh even as a centrist I get told that my position doesn't exist... (see the woke parody thread)

 

[Millky95]

Though where does the trans/ LGBT rights come into it? Traditionally being pro trans/LGBT is seen as "left" (as per the mediafactcheckbias site) though I would argue it is also libertarian (freedom to have consensual sex with whomever you want, or to identify as whoever you want)

LGBT/Trans rights are a social issue not economic so it would be on the libertarian/down/south side of the compass

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

Surely not. I haven't heard that one before

The ol rightwing crank claims they are a "centrist" trick?

How antiquated.

 

[Chadwiko]

LGBT/Trans rights are a social issue not economic so it would be on the libertarian/down/south side of the compass

Only in theory.

In reality, modern "libertarians" are the loudest voices in the anti-trans hysteria crowds.

 

[Millky95]

Only in theory.

In reality, modern "libertarians" are the loudest voices in the anti-trans hysteria crowds.

In my experience modern libertarians only care about money and love the authority of big business

 

[PJays]

Do the test, let's not be ignorant

Your Political Compass​

Economic Left/Right: -3.88​

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.64​

Even I don't believe this though- it's saying I'm left/libertarian (in the same direction as the Reason Party).

I call BS. It's a very conservative test if I'm that far to the left.

Last time I did a test like this was the Federal election 2022 ABC test, and I was very slightly to the right and very slightly below the centre vertical axis. If anyone remembers that, Liberal was on the right and Labor in the middle. I was basically halfway between the Labor dot and the Liberal dot.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Your Political Compass​

Economic Left/Right: -3.88​

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.64​

Even I don't believe this though- it's saying I'm left/libertarian (in the same direction as the Reason Party).

I call BS. It's a very conservative test if I'm that far to the left.

Last time I did a test like this was the Federal election 2022 ABC test, and I was very slightly to the right and very slightly below the centre vertical axis. If anyone remembers that, Liberal was on the right and Labor in the middle. I was basically halfway between the Labor dot and the Liberal dot.

I think if I recall correctly the compass one you did has the Australian greens as centre centre.

 

[Millky95]

Your Political Compass​

Economic Left/Right: -3.88​

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.64​

Even I don't believe this though- it's saying I'm left/libertarian (in the same direction as the Reason Party).

I call BS. It's a very conservative test if I'm that far to the left.

Last time I did a test like this was the Federal election 2022 ABC test, and I was very slightly to the right and very slightly below the centre vertical axis. If anyone remembers that, Liberal was on the right and Labor in the middle. I was basically halfway between the Labor dot and the Liberal dot.

Do you have the photo for reference?

The ABC test felt a bit weird to me, iirc. Didn't have the parties remotely where I feel like they are

 

[Gralin]

You're about to get told you are not a centrist.

I'm trying to work out what a centrist position on the "big issues" actually means
they listed
economics, national security, tax policy, energy policy, climate change

wtf is a centrist position on those unless its I don't have any opinion or interest at all

Only in theory.

In reality, modern "libertarians" are the loudest voices in the anti-trans hysteria crowds.

Plenty of pro trans Anarchists out there

 

[Gralin]

Your Political Compass​

Economic Left/Right: -3.88​

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.64​

Even I don't believe this though- it's saying I'm left/libertarian (in the same direction as the Reason Party).

I call BS. It's a very conservative test if I'm that far to the left.

Last time I did a test like this was the Federal election 2022 ABC test, and I was very slightly to the right and very slightly below the centre vertical axis. If anyone remembers that, Liberal was on the right and Labor in the middle. I was basically halfway between the Labor dot and the Liberal dot.

the ABC vote compass was not an accurate picture of left/right or authoritarian/libertarian, you can see the Political Compass view of ALP



ABC had the greens as the extreme left which they aren't even close to btw and they only talk about progressive and conservative not liberty/authority

its a completely s**t compas


try this one

8values

8values.github.io

 

[PJays]

the ABC vote compass was not an accurate picture of left/right or authoritarian/libertarian, you can see the Political Compass view of ALP

View attachment 1569547

ABC had the greens as the extreme left which they aren't even close to btw and they only talk about progressive and conservative not liberty/authority

its a completely s**t compas


try this one

8values

8values.github.io

Absolutely- according to that I'm right where the Greens are! Complete nonsense, Greens would be much further left and much more libertarian

Thanks I'll try the other one later

Just looked up the photo of my ABC pol compass this year

They had Conservative/Progressive. ALP was centre on economics and very fractionally socially conservative. Lib was centre right and moderately socially conservative. Greens were almost off their chart- basically in the top left corner- far left and extremely progressive

I was slightly closer to Lab- about 5/8 socially conservative with Lib 6/8 and Lab 4.5/8

Economics I was about 5.2/8 to the right while lib were just over 6. Labor 4

8 is just the number of squares on the axis they used

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Absolutely- according to that I'm right where the Greens are! Complete nonsense, Greens would be much further left and much more libertarian

Thanks I'll try the other one later

Just looked up the photo of my ABC pol compass this year

They had Conservative/Progressive. ALP was centre on economics and very fractionally socially conservative. Lib was centre right and moderately socially conservative. Greens were almost off their chart- basically in the top left corner- far left and extremely progressive

I was slightly closer to Lab- about 5/8 socially conservative with Lib 6/8 and Lab 4.5/8

Economics I was about 5.2/8 to the right while lib were just over 6. Labor 4

8 is just the number of squares on the axis they used

 

[sandeano]

The ABC has called Pakenham for Labor.



This is my neck of the woods and I am genuinely surprised. There appeared to be a lot of anti-Dan sentiment out here but, once again, just because the voices are loud, does not mean they are the majority.