2022-Where’s the improvement coming from?

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Down at K Park

Brownlow Medallist
May 18, 2016
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Question on the draft,how hard are you going in you draft year knowing if your fair dinkum flat out you will dead set finish at a sh*t club.
Probably depends on how good you are. For middling players just getting drafted is the goal. For the best players they could possibly tank a little.
 

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Partridge

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I doubt anyone deny the importance of that group.

One can be lucky and find players that other clubs have passed over that develop into AA level players, but there has to be a high level of luck. Players picked at the sharp end of the draft are known commodities. Not certanties but imo, you juts can not suceed without at least one, probably more than one. Would Rich have beaten us without Martin? Does Melb look as good without Petrrica.Sooner or later, we will need to add kids from that spot in the draft.

Could also mention the ruckman who violated us in the Prelim. Except that he was taken at pick 34 which doesn't suit the argument.
 

Pure_Ownage

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You can upgrade those picks 14 to pick 5s by trading good players who wont be around for the next permiership tilt. I.e. a mitch duncan or cam guthrie or jeremy cameron.

Top 5 picks very rarely change hands..even if you offer players like that once they are at or over 30 almost no one will include a top 5 pick for you in the trade. So the top 5 picks people want are almost impossible for us to get. Picks in the late teens sure we can get those but are we honestly better off with picks in that range than the players we have? I reckon not.
 

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TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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Could also mention the ruckman who violated us in the Prelim. Except that he was taken at pick 34 which doesn't suit the argument.

The young kid looked good though. Where was he taken..P3 ?


I would place the recruiting of rucks in a different catagory. There has been so many good late developers, good on Melb having the nous to draft and develop him. Hope in about 10 years , the kid we just draft is staring in a PF.


My argument, or discussion point or opinion ... is that a side must have at least one early pick that you have drafted so really its doesnt preclude finding kids late, only that you need more than them to succeed.
 

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TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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Top 5 picks very rarely change hands..even if you offer players like that once they are at or over 30 almost no one will include a top 5 pick for you in the trade. So the top 5 picks people want are almost impossible for us to get. Picks in the late teens sure we can get those but are we honestly better off with picks in that range than the players we have? I reckon not.

Almost impossible to trade for. The only chance is to fluke it or have an arrangement with a FSon side like GWS and Collingwood.
 

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TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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We tried to move the game to Sunday from what I heard, and tried to helicopter in emergencies- NO GO.
We were hamstrung.
Life is not always black and white.

Do hospitals encourage sick workers to still come to work? If they were legit not up to playing then Geelong should have pulled the pin.
 

Vdubs

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Our 3 emergencies were at the ground and none of them played. Why do you think that is if we actually had players too sick to play?
Very good question. Can not answer. Only quoted what I was told.Maybe there were so many involved that they hoped match day treatment may have got them over the line. Gastrostop, etc.
 

Vdubs

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Do hospitals encourage sick workers to still come to work? If they were legit not up to playing then Geelong should have pulled the pin.
As I said in a previous post, spare a thought for CS who in the space of 7 days could foresee the whole season plummeting without a meaningful contingency plan.
 
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Down at K Park

Brownlow Medallist
May 18, 2016
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As I said in a previous post, spare a thought for CS who in the space of 7 days could foresee the whole season plummeting downhill without a meaningful contingency plan.
To be fair, i’m sure he’s used it to after a decade of finals failure.
 

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TheBrownDog
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As I said in a previous post, spare a thought for CS who in the space of 7 days could foresee the whole season plummeting downhill without a meaningful contingency plan.

Sure. Hearts bleeding for him.. but he has made it clear he doesn't care what the ignorant masses think anyway ...
 

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TheBrownDog
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Our 3 emergencies were at the ground and none of them played. Why do you think that is if we actually had players too sick to play?

who were the emergencies ... and who were the players the sniffles? If Stanley was crook and we had 3 guys 185cm... etc ... probably he got told to just do what you could do
 

Ricky Vaughn

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I actually think the lesser draft picks are just as important as the high ones. Obviously early draft picks help if you have them, but every single one of those premiership teams had (and in Melbourne's case right now, have) a stack of very, very good footballers taken anywhere from picks 20 to 60 (and sometimes even later - Dylan Grimes going in the pre-season draft has to be one of the great 'wtf' decisions in modern recruiting).

To me it's gorging yourself at the draft table that matters. Take as many picks as possible, develop them, and be patient. It seems to work very very well. No other method works. At all.

But that method, by itself, does not work either.

The core of every successful team comes from the draft, but that gets supplemented by targeted recruiting. Richmond (Nankervis, Lynch, Caddy, Prestia), Melbourne (Langdon, Brown, May, Lever) Hawthorn (Gibson, Lake, Burgoyne) even the Bulldogs (Biggs, Boyd).

The balance is the issue. We haven’t got it right.
 

Partridge

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Our 3 emergencies were at the ground and none of them played. Why do you think that is if we actually had players too sick to play?

Because it's a copout used to excuse yet another pathetic finals performance, if anything the worst yet. Rather than face the reality that their decade-long strategy has not worked, it's easier to rationalise it with an endless list of reasons why losing is not only acceptable but admirable. You can include mystery illnesses, heavy training loads, and Dangerfield injuries (always after poor finals games) in that for starters.
 

Warhorse

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It's interesting the politics in regards to list management. I know that when geelong raised the financial offer to Cameron and GWS matched, Wells wanted to walk away but was overruled by others at the club. Wells is keen for a more balanced approach with a mix of drafting, trading and free agency. I'm curious to see what Mackie does from here
 

Vdubs

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It's interesting the politics in regards to list management. I know that when geelong raised the financial offer to Cameron and GWS matched, Wells wanted to walk away but was overruled by others at the club. Wells is keen for a more balanced approach with a mix of drafting, trading and free agency. I'm curious to see what Mackie does from here
I get the impression that Mackie is a little like SHocking- fairly strong, and ruthless. Could be wrong, but he impresses me every time he speaks.
 

Vdubs

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Because it's a copout used to excuse yet another pathetic finals performance, if anything the worst yet. Rather than face the reality that their decade-long strategy has not worked, it's easier to rationalise it with an endless list of reasons why losing is not only acceptable but admirable. You can include mystery illnesses, heavy training loads, and Dangerfield injuries (always after poor finals games) in that for starters.
What did you think of Geelong in 04-06, and in the late 80's -90's?

Our successful era:-
I honestly think everything came together as a result of a combination of factors-
-great draft picks- some luck,
-great F-S's- very lucky, GAJ, Scarlett, Hawkins- all 3 once in a generation type player.
-opportunistic pick of OTTENS and Mooney- shrewd,
-Costa/Cook/ Bomber- right time, really set us up fiscally and on field
-a perfectly selected captain in Harley who set the scene for the standards the best team in the comp would need to adhere to
-2 sets of core players maturing at the right time, with very few injuries- some luck
-Milburn, Chappy, Ling, Corey, Wojo, Hunt, Rooke,
-Ablett, Bartel, Kelly, SJ, Mackie, Lonegan
-And a sprinkling of peripheral brilliance in Varcoe, Stokes, Byrnes.
-It has not been without luck and opportunism.
-We lost 08 after a totally DOMINANT season.
-We won 09 by capitalising on opportunities.
-And in 2011, it all came together perfectly.
-In every GF we won, injuries were minimal
This is without a mention of recruiting a freak for 2007 , one who would captain our team a record number of times, and we will miss him soon enough when he retires- Selwood's input to our successes has been pivotal.
 

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TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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It's interesting the politics in regards to list management. I know that when geelong raised the financial offer to Cameron and GWS matched, Wells wanted to walk away but was overruled by others at the club. Wells is keen for a more balanced approach with a mix of drafting, trading and free agency. I'm curious to see what Mackie does from here

How do you know this ...or should I say how good is the information. To me as soon as they could not get him as a FA I'd have walked, but to have Wells want to walk away but not allowed to.... is it any wonder what has followed this year.
 

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TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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What did you think of Geelong in 04-06, and in the late 80's -90's?

Our successful era:-
I honestly think everything came together as a result of a combination of factors-
-great draft picks- some luck,
-great F-S's- very lucky, GAJ, Scarlett, Hawkins- all 3 once in a generation type player.
-opportunistic pick of OTTENS and Mooney- shrewd,
-Costa/Cook/ Bomber- right time, really set us up fiscally and on field
-a perfectly selected captain in Harley who set the scene for the standards the best team in the comp would need to adhere to
-2 sets of core players maturing at the right time, with very few injuries- some luck
-Milburn, Chappy, Ling, Corey, Wojo, Hunt, Rooke,
-Ablett, Bartel, Kelly, SJ, Mackie, Lonegan
-And a sprinkling of peripheral brilliance in Varcoe, Stokes, Byrnes.
-It has not been without luck and opportunism.
-We lost 08 after a totally DOMINANT season.
-We won 09 by capitalising on opportunities.
-And in 2011, it all came together perfectly.
-In every GF we won, injuries were minimal
This is without a mention of recruiting a freak for 2007 , one who would captain our team a record number of times, and we will miss him soon enough when he retires- Selwood's input to our successes has been pivotal.

06


All of what you say is true, some is repeatable as has been shown in the last ten years, some we have not tried to repeat, some things are just luck
 

Seeds

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Top 5 picks very rarely change hands..even if you offer players like that once they are at or over 30 almost no one will include a top 5 pick for you in the trade. So the top 5 picks people want are almost impossible for us to get. Picks in the late teens sure we can get those but are we honestly better off with picks in that range than the players we have? I reckon not.
so you think if we offered up pick 14 and say a mitch duncan together the best we would get was pick 16-19?


the reason Its rare to get those top 10 picks is teams rarely offer up something that is worthy of them.
 

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TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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so you think if we offered up pick 14 and say a mitch duncan together the best we would get was pick 16-19?


the reason Its rare to get those top 10 picks is teams rarely offer up something that is worthy of them.

The trouble is the player has to want it... remember back toe th SJ trade that never happened. If we offered Duncan and 14 for Gold Coast pick this year ... id say Gold coast would be interested..but would Duncan?
 

Pure_Ownage

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so you think if we offered up pick 14 and say a mitch duncan together the best we would get was pick 16-19?


the reason Its rare to get those top 10 picks is teams rarely offer up something that is worthy of them.

Top 5 picks are only traded for players who were originally very high picks and young and talented (see cerra this year) or for absolute A grade players in their mid 20s. If you put someone like duncan up youd get a late R1 from a contending team sure but the clubs who have top 5 picks wont trade for a 30yo as it doesnt fit their age profile while rebuilding they would only trade it for an A grade player around 25yo and we dont have anyone of note in that age bracket. Which is why those picks are unattainable for us. Is duncan + pick 15 for say pick 4 a fair trade? Yes. Is a club holding pick 4 going to do that trade for a player that age? No basically never imo. Thats before you get to the fact that said player is rarely going to want to agree to a trade to a bottom 4 club they will want to go to a finals club instead which is why you will get a later pick.
 

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