2022-Where’s the improvement coming from?

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Art Vandelay_

TheBrownDog
Oct 28, 2012
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No surprises here. The eeyore's of the board turn up and nary a remark about how we improve in 2022.

- SDK just must play games this season. Need to blood a KPD. Does he make us get better than 2021 though. Probably not.
- Midfield showing up in finals. Won't hold my breath that they will but to improve on last campaign they simply must.
- More games together, and the synergy that goes with that from Hawkins, Cameron and Rohan.
 

Partridge

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2002
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No surprises here. The eeyore's of the board turn up and nary a remark about how we improve in 2022.

- SDK just must play games this season. Need to blood a KPD. Does he make us get better than 2021 though. Probably not.
- Midfield showing up in finals. Won't hold my breath that they will but to improve on last campaign they simply must.
- More games together, and the synergy that goes with that from Hawkins, Cameron and Rohan.

Won't mean anything unless they turn up in September. That's almost a lost cause for Rohan, and Cameron isn't much better.
 

Art Vandelay_

TheBrownDog
Oct 28, 2012
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Won't mean anything unless they turn up in September. That's almost a lost cause for Rohan, and Cameron isn't much better.
And there’s where this board has its main problem. An inability to correctly and properly analyse cause and effect.

Nearly every major finals loss since 2016 can be attributed to a midfield/ruck massacre. Either for a whole game or as we get overrun.

The effects are that the defence cannot cope with the sheer weight of entries, more critically the quality of entries, as well as then being unable to transition the ball out/through a well set up zone.

Also, then the forwards are either confronted with low volume and/or quality of entries making their task of kicking a competent score and contributing much harder.

So when the likes of Bews, Henderson, Taylor, Kolodjashnij, Henry, O’Connor, Rohan, Hawkins, Miers (and many less recently past or present players) are the targets of the most vociferous abuse, critique, scorn and analysis I do sit back bemused that once more the men who are most at fault for defeat get away with it with little said. Dangerfield, Duncan, Menegola, Stanley (Smith), Parfitt. And to a lesser extent Guthrie, and lastly Selwood (far less culpable over the years). These men are the smoking gun, and have been for 6 seasons at least.

The Richmond losses to me, are different. We’ve generally been competitive right up until Martin goes up a gear, and we simply have no one who can stop him when he does. Won them the 2017 QF in the second half. Went up a gear in 2019 PF and is the reason why 2020 was not our 10th premiership.
 

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Warhorse

Premiership Player
Sep 23, 2017
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How do you know this ...or should I say how good is the information. To me as soon as they could not get him as a FA I'd have walked, but to have Wells want to walk away but not allowed to.... is it any wonder what has followed this year.
He told me himself. He was particularly keen to head to the draft more
No surprises here. The eeyore's of the board turn up and nary a remark about how we improve in 2022.

- SDK just must play games this season. Need to blood a KPD. Does he make us get better than 2021 though. Probably not.
- Midfield showing up in finals. Won't hold my breath that they will but to improve on last campaign they simply must.
- More games together, and the synergy that goes with that from Hawkins, Cameron and Rohan.
Midfield improves or we go backwards
 

Down at K Park

Brownlow Medallist
May 18, 2016
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And there’s where this board has its main problem. An inability to correctly and properly analyse cause and effect.

Nearly every major finals loss since 2016 can be attributed to a midfield/ruck massacre. Either for a whole game or as we get overrun.

The effects are that the defence cannot cope with the sheer weight of entries, more critically the quality of entries, as well as then being unable to transition the ball out/through a well set up zone.

Also, then the forwards are either confronted with low volume and/or quality of entries making their task of kicking a competent score and contributing much harder.

So when the likes of Bews, Henderson, Taylor, Kolodjashnij, Henry, O’Connor, Rohan, Hawkins, Miers (and many less recently past or present players) are the targets of the most vociferous abuse, critique, scorn and analysis I do sit back bemused that once more the men who are most at fault for defeat get away with it with little said. Dangerfield, Duncan, Menegola, Stanley (Smith), Parfitt. And to a lesser extent Guthrie, and lastly Selwood (far less culpable over the years). These men are the smoking gun, and have been for 6 seasons at least.

The Richmond losses to me, are different. We’ve generally been competitive right up until Martin goes up a gear, and we simply have no one who can stop him when he does. Won them the 2017 QF in the second half. Went up a gear in 2019 PF and is the reason why 2020 was not our 10th premiership.
How do you think the midfield goes missing in finals, when it looks so strong during the season?

It’s a complete mystery to me why this happens.
 

Seeds

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Sep 15, 2007
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Top 5 picks are only traded for players who were originally very high picks and young and talented (see cerra this year) or for absolute A grade players in their mid 20s. If you put someone like duncan up youd get a late R1 from a contending team sure but the clubs who have top 5 picks wont trade for a 30yo as it doesnt fit their age profile while rebuilding they would only trade it for an A grade player around 25yo and we dont have anyone of note in that age bracket. Which is why those picks are unattainable for us. Is duncan + pick 15 for say pick 4 a fair trade? Yes. Is a club holding pick 4 going to do that trade for a player that age? No basically never imo. Thats before you get to the fact that said player is rarely going to want to agree to a trade to a bottom 4 club they will want to go to a finals club instead which is why you will get a later pick.
That is a good point about the goals of team with top 5 picks. there have been exceptions though. Teams who have already had lots of draft picks often want experience. Gws and gold coast for one have been willing to trade.

there have also been other opportunities. Didnt melbourne offer us a top 3 pick a few years ago for duncan and cockatoo? In hindsight we probably should of done that deal.
 

bulletproof

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Because it's a copout used to excuse yet another pathetic finals performance, if anything the worst yet. Rather than face the reality that their decade-long strategy has not worked, it's easier to rationalise it with an endless list of reasons why losing is not only acceptable but admirable. You can include mystery illnesses, heavy training loads, and Dangerfield injuries (always after poor finals games) in that for starters.

In any case, the Port loss was arguably worse. Thumped by a team who was subsequently shown to be not at the level. We were absolutely miles off this year.
 

Turbocat

TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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Top 5 picks are only traded for players who were originally very high picks and young and talented (see cerra this year) or for absolute A grade players in their mid 20s. If you put someone like duncan up youd get a late R1 from a contending team sure but the clubs who have top 5 picks wont trade for a 30yo as it doesnt fit their age profile while rebuilding they would only trade it for an A grade player around 25yo and we dont have anyone of note in that age bracket. Which is why those picks are unattainable for us. Is duncan + pick 15 for say pick 4 a fair trade? Yes. Is a club holding pick 4 going to do that trade for a player that age? No basically never imo. Thats before you get to the fact that said player is rarely going to want to agree to a trade to a bottom 4 club they will want to go to a finals club instead which is why you will get a later pick.

Why I agree that those picks are so rare that they are hard to access, I think clubs like Gold Coast have almost reached a saturation point. They really do not need extra high end kids.... who could be denied chances to play and as such , they may struggle to keep them. Id be interested in how Hollands is going up there for example.


Where as , if a player like Duncan, who could offer them 3 to 4 years of a mature secure player .... id say they would trade 5 for Duncan and 14 with a smile on the face. Basically in the draft just gone.... Mac Andrew for Duncan and Chesser


As I said, thats OK in theory... Duncan would be unlikely to agree..so it would not happen. Id imagine if GC were allowed to add a few players outside the cap, some huge offers might see players consider Ablett like dollars too good to refuse.

Till the AFL allow push trades....I maintain our best chance is when a club that has a top 10 pick, also has a Father Son coming up.... or we may actually have to slide to get a pick that early.
 

Turbocat

TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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He told me himself. He was particularly keen to head to the draft more

Be an interesting discussion , and who he would have taken with our pick. I don't think Wells has been denied access to the draft...has there been a year where we have had less than three picks? Its the quality end of the draft he has been denied
 

Seeds

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Very good question. Can not answer. Only quoted what I was told.Maybe there were so many involved that they hoped match day treatment may have got them over the line. Gastrostop, etc.
There's only 2 logical answers.

The players were ill and they were worried they wouldn't be able to play but they all recovered before the game making it a minor to non-existent issue by game time.

The story about mass illness and demands for extra emergencies or a delayed game is false.

I believe it was probably one.
 

FredLeDeux

Hall of Famer
Aug 2, 2012
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There's only 2 logical answers.

The players were ill and they were worried they wouldn't be able to play but they all recovered before the game making it a minor to non-existent issue by game time.

The story about mass illness and demands for extra emergencies or a delayed game is false.

I believe it was probably one.
There's a third possible answer, of course - some or all of the emergencies were among those who were ill.
 

Partridge

Hall of Famer
Nov 12, 2002
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And there’s where this board has its main problem. An inability to correctly and properly analyse cause and effect.

Nearly every major finals loss since 2016 can be attributed to a midfield/ruck massacre. Either for a whole game or as we get overrun.

The effects are that the defence cannot cope with the sheer weight of entries, more critically the quality of entries, as well as then being unable to transition the ball out/through a well set up zone.

Also, then the forwards are either confronted with low volume and/or quality of entries making their task of kicking a competent score and contributing much harder.

So when the likes of Bews, Henderson, Taylor, Kolodjashnij, Henry, O’Connor, Rohan, Hawkins, Miers (and many less recently past or present players) are the targets of the most vociferous abuse, critique, scorn and analysis I do sit back bemused that once more the men who are most at fault for defeat get away with it with little said. Dangerfield, Duncan, Menegola, Stanley (Smith), Parfitt. And to a lesser extent Guthrie, and lastly Selwood (far less culpable over the years). These men are the smoking gun, and have been for 6 seasons at least.

The Richmond losses to me, are different. We’ve generally been competitive right up until Martin goes up a gear, and we simply have no one who can stop him when he does. Won them the 2017 QF in the second half. Went up a gear in 2019 PF and is the reason why 2020 was not our 10th premiership.

More than one thing can be true at once though. You won't get an argument from me about the midfield, and there isn't one midfielder we have who emerges with credit from our finals performances. But that still doesn't excuse guys like Rohan though. He's in that large bucket of players who were mature and seasoned, and so the argument runs, ready to perform and don't need development. But his abysmal finals record for Sydney has repeated and should not surprise anyone. Yes the ball has to get to him. But his repeated appalling efforts can't be excused by midfield delivery. He just isn't good enough when the pressure is on. Unfortunately that covers many players in the team all over the field.
 

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standupand

Club Legend
Sep 27, 2019
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More than one thing can be true at once though. You won't get an argument from me about the midfield, and there isn't one midfielder we have who emerges with credit from our finals performances. But that still doesn't excuse guys like Rohan though. He's in that large bucket of players who were mature and seasoned, and so the argument runs, ready to perform and don't need development. But his abysmal finals record for Sydney has repeated and should not surprise anyone. Yes the ball has to get to him. But his repeated appalling efforts can't be excused by midfield delivery. He just isn't good enough when the pressure is on. Unfortunately that covers many players in the team all over the field.
On Rohan - his whole second half of the year wasn't flash. I suspect he was hampered by injury. I don't think it's got much to do with pressure. He has performed in big finals in the past - 2020 pf, 2016 pf against us. Just this year nailed a set-shot to win a huge game against the dogs. Can't get any higher pressure than that. I just feel like there is a lot of myth surrounding his poor finals performances. It wasn't a surprise to me this year. He was performing just as poorly in the later games of the h&a - total contrast to the first half of the season where he was a shining light.
 

Seeds

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Sep 15, 2007
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And there’s where this board has its main problem. An inability to correctly and properly analyse cause and effect.

Nearly every major finals loss since 2016 can be attributed to a midfield/ruck massacre. Either for a whole game or as we get overrun.

The effects are that the defence cannot cope with the sheer weight of entries, more critically the quality of entries, as well as then being unable to transition the ball out/through a well set up zone.

Also, then the forwards are either confronted with low volume and/or quality of entries making their task of kicking a competent score and contributing much harder.

So when the likes of Bews, Henderson, Taylor, Kolodjashnij, Henry, O’Connor, Rohan, Hawkins, Miers (and many less recently past or present players) are the targets of the most vociferous abuse, critique, scorn and analysis I do sit back bemused that once more the men who are most at fault for defeat get away with it with little said. Dangerfield, Duncan, Menegola, Stanley (Smith), Parfitt. And to a lesser extent Guthrie, and lastly Selwood (far less culpable over the years). These men are the smoking gun, and have been for 6 seasons at least.

The Richmond losses to me, are different. We’ve generally been competitive right up until Martin goes up a gear, and we simply have no one who can stop him when he does. Won them the 2017 QF in the second half. Went up a gear in 2019 PF and is the reason why 2020 was not our 10th premiership.
We have been saying for yonks that is a major problem. but unlike you we actually try to think of the solution rather then just hope.

The solution was a more attacking strategy of pushing the ball foward More quickly rather then trying to grab and hold on to it which became way too predictable. Having a decent tap ruckman would of also helped the mids out.

The only solution now, however, is a rebuild. And Whats your solution? Players to just magically become younger and better? You state cause and effect but then provide none of it. Whats your cause and effect.
 

Turbocat

TheBrownDog
Dec 10, 2003
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Screen Shot 2021-12-23 at 11.06.56 am.png
 

Partridge

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On Rohan - his whole second half of the year wasn't flash. I suspect he was hampered by injury. I don't think it's got much to do with pressure. He has performed in big finals in the past - 2020 pf, 2016 pf against us. Just this year nailed a set-shot to win a huge game against the dogs. Can't get any higher pressure than that. I just feel like there is a lot of myth surrounding his poor finals performances. It wasn't a surprise to me this year. He was performing just as poorly in the later games of the h&a - total contrast to the first half of the season where he was a shining light.

I think it's everything to do with pressure. There's nothing surer than him filling his boots either a) against crap opposition, or b) when the game is effectively over.

In the 2016 Prelim Sydney were 37 points up at quarter time, and 49 points up at half time (11 goals to 2). Accordingly, he got 18 touches. I wouldn't rave too much about the 2020 Prelim, what you might term "performed" was a whopping 11 touches for 3 goals. Hardly superstar material, it just stands out against the consistently putrid displays he's put out all around it.
 

standupand

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Sep 27, 2019
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I think it's everything to do with pressure. There's nothing surer than him filling his boots either a) against crap opposition, or b) when the game is effectively over.

In the 2016 Prelim Sydney were 37 points up at quarter time, and 49 points up at half time (11 goals to 2). Accordingly, he got 18 touches. I wouldn't rave too much about the 2020 Prelim, what you might term "performed" was a whopping 11 touches for 3 goals. Hardly superstar material, it just stands out against the consistently putrid displays he's put out all around it.
Fair enough. In both those games I thought he was among the best on ground. Brought the pressure himself and finished exquisitely. At an individual level it's just a shame the consistency isn't there or that he can't always keep his body in good nick. Really adds something to our forwardline when he's going. But in terms of the improvement of the team itself - I've never looked at individual players to make a real meaningful difference.
 

Partridge

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Fair enough. In both those games I thought he was among the best on ground. Brought the pressure himself and finished exquisitely. At an individual level it's just a shame the consistency isn't there or that he can't always keep his body in good nick. Really adds something to our forwardline when he's going. But in terms of the improvement of the team itself - I've never looked at individual players to make a real meaningful difference.

Agree with that, and players can turn it around. Fail in finals early on and then thrive later in their career. For an extreme example look at Cotchin. Went from one of the most insipid finals games I've ever seen in 2015 to becoming an intimidating physical presence in his next one (2017 Qualifying Final). So it can be done.
 

dazbroncos

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Top 5 picks are only traded for players who were originally very high picks and young and talented (see cerra this year) or for absolute A grade players in their mid 20s. If you put someone like duncan up youd get a late R1 from a contending team sure but the clubs who have top 5 picks wont trade for a 30yo as it doesnt fit their age profile while rebuilding they would only trade it for an A grade player around 25yo and we dont have anyone of note in that age bracket. Which is why those picks are unattainable for us. Is duncan + pick 15 for say pick 4 a fair trade? Yes. Is a club holding pick 4 going to do that trade for a player that age? No basically never imo. Thats before you get to the fact that said player is rarely going to want to agree to a trade to a bottom 4 club they will want to go to a finals club instead which is why you will get a later pick.
Then you get the Lachie Weller type deals where most sit there and scratch their heads going "WTF" as its not a great deal value wise...but then it shows the metric that you can actually trade players for pick2 - it gives validity to the "it can be done" crowd.
But they dont often happen and GCS was blasted pretty hard for giving up pick 2 if my memory serves me correctly.

Go Catters
 

Turbocat

TheBrownDog
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Then you get the Lachie Weller type deals where most sit there and scratch their heads going "WTF" as its not a great deal value wise...but then it shows the metric that you can actually trade players for pick2 - it gives validity to the "it can be done" crowd.
But they dont often happen and GCS was blasted pretty hard for giving up pick 2 if my memory serves me correctly.

Go Catters

Amazing things happen when someone finally wants to dance with you...
 

Hamingja

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You can't expect team changing improvement to come from guys like Holmes, SDK, Stephens. Be great if they can hold their spot and play 15+ games next year but you are not going to get premiership winning improvement from players like that. They need the 30-50 games under their belt before they are going to have a proper impact on the team, they are not Joel Selwood or Tim Kelly. That's where wasting 40+ games on Steven 2020, Higgins and Dahl 2021 when they gave us 2/5ths of fu** all hurts.
 

Seeds

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Then you get the Lachie Weller type deals where most sit there and scratch their heads going "WTF" as its not a great deal value wise...but then it shows the metric that you can actually trade players for pick2 - it gives validity to the "it can be done" crowd.
But they dont often happen and GCS was blasted pretty hard for giving up pick 2 if my memory serves me correctly.

Go Catters
So it is done. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Pure_Ownage

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That is a good point about the goals of team with top 5 picks. there have been exceptions though. Teams who have already had lots of draft picks often want experience. Gws and gold coast for one have been willing to trade.

there have also been other opportunities. Didnt melbourne offer us a top 3 pick a few years ago for duncan and cockatoo? In hindsight we probably should of done that deal.

Its more the fact that rebuilding clubs (they are the ones with top 5 picks) wont spend a lot of capital on anyone over 28 as it doesnt fit with their age profile and isnt something they can sell to their members so they wont trade picks like that unless its a younger player they can still potentially get 8-10 years out of. Yes a player like duncan for 3-4 years of elite play is worth a top 10 pick but bottom clubs just wont trade top 5 picks for a player that age (for the reasons above) and most of those players dont want to go to bottom 5 clubs anyway. Gws and gc distorted things as they were given so many picks they could afford to 'burn' top 5 picks, they needed 'names' for marketing purposes in non football states and so were prepared to trade for short term older players for that reason (see why gws traded boyd for griffen a year in) and because at the start they had like 30 kids taking up bugger all cap they were able to overpay in $ (plus the afl ambassador payments for expansion clubs) for the experienced players they brought in (players wont go to bottom clubs for decent $ but for massive massive $they will). The first 2 reasons dont apply to normal rebuilding clubs and the last one doesnt apply fully so thats why top 5 picks rarely get traded imo.

So really its hard for us to get top 5 picks unless our list is so bad that we finish bottom 5 (which its unlikely to be) as we dont have players in the right age bracket to trade for those picks.

I dont remember if melbourne made that offer..its possible they did but it would have been when he was younger (which fits with the above).if a side was bottom 5 now (say north or adelaide etc) they wouldnt offer such a pick for a 30 + player.
 

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