2022-Where’s the improvement coming from?

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Pure_Ownage

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Then you get the Lachie Weller type deals where most sit there and scratch their heads going "WTF" as its not a great deal value wise...but then it shows the metric that you can actually trade players for pick2 - it gives validity to the "it can be done" crowd.
But they dont often happen and GCS was blasted pretty hard for giving up pick 2 if my memory serves me correctly.

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I mean to be fair that deal was a cock up (not least their trading for wces future 1st without checking if freo would take it then bending over and giving up pick 2 anyway) because gc had a player exodus and were so desperate to get anyone that they decided to overpay and weller wanted to go there (in a way that a lot of players dont with bottom clubs) because he was an academy player there and had ties there. Its more an outlier than anything because there arent many other deals like it for top 5 picks.
 

Partridge

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How do you think the midfield goes missing in finals, when it looks so strong during the season?

It’s a complete mystery to me why this happens.

One word. Pressure.

We've built a midfield of aging stars - who are either clearly in decline, or poor defensively - a patchwork of recruits from other leagues, mature agers, with only a handful of genuine draftees that have been developed and in what you could call their 'prime'. That probably only covers Guthrie and Duncan and they're getting on as well. Like the team itself, it's good enough to get the job done during home and away, especially at Geelong or against lower quality opposition (and those two factors provide a lot of wins). They get found wanting when the temperature goes up in September. No one wants to admit they've become brittle and frontrunners, especially the stars, so it's easier to invent or exaggerate excuses.

It's much simpler. They aren't as good as we want to believe. That goes for Selwood and Dangerfield as much as Parfitt and O'Connor.
 

Mad_Hatter

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One word. Pressure.

We've built a midfield of aging stars - who are either clearly in decline, or poor defensively - a patchwork of recruits from other leagues, mature agers, with only a handful of genuine draftees that have been developed and in what you could call their 'prime'. That probably only covers Guthrie and Duncan and they're getting on as well. Like the team itself, it's good enough to get the job done during home and away, especially at Geelong or against lower quality opposition (and those two factors provide a lot of wins). They get found wanting when the temperature goes up in September. No one wants to admit they've become brittle and frontrunners, especially the stars, so it's easier to invent or exaggerate excuses.

It's much simpler. They aren't as good as we want to believe. That goes for Selwood and Dangerfield as much as Parfitt and O'Connor.

All true, my issue comes when the same people who say the above (which again, is accurate), also sook and whinge when the cats bow out in finals.
People can't have it both ways, they aren't that good and overachieve due to the above, AND should have won the flag and anything short is abysmal failure.
It's one or the other, which ironically I think have switched a few times over the last 10 years.
 

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Vdubs

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One word. Pressure.

We've built a midfield of aging stars - who are either clearly in decline, or poor defensively - a patchwork of recruits from other leagues, mature agers, with only a handful of genuine draftees that have been developed and in what you could call their 'prime'. That probably only covers Guthrie and Duncan and they're getting on as well. Like the team itself, it's good enough to get the job done during home and away, especially at Geelong or against lower quality opposition (and those two factors provide a lot of wins). They get found wanting when the temperature goes up in September. No one wants to admit they've become brittle and frontrunners, especially the stars, so it's easier to invent or exaggerate excuses.

It's much simpler. They aren't as good as we want to believe. That goes for Selwood and Dangerfield as much as Parfitt and O'Connor.
that nails it from everything we've seen over the last 4-5 seasons
 

Partridge

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All true, my issue comes when the same people who say the above (which again, is accurate), also sook and whinge when the cats bow out in finals.
People can't have it both ways, they aren't that good and overachieve due to the above, AND should have won the flag and anything short is abysmal failure.
It's one or the other, which ironically I think have switched a few times over the last 10 years.

Yep, and that's why my personal blowtorch gets applied extra hard to mature recruits. The whole reason they were brought to the club was to assist in winning premierships. And we've been endlessly told that it's better than drafting because a) they're ready made and seasoned, and b) there are no guarantees in recruiting. Free agency has also changed the landscape. Apparently.

So when any name recruit fails in finals the heat should be turned on them big time. Absolutely no excuses.
 

you pick one

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One word. Pressure.

We've built a midfield of aging stars - who are either clearly in decline, or poor defensively - a patchwork of recruits from other leagues, mature agers, with only a handful of genuine draftees that have been developed and in what you could call their 'prime'. That probably only covers Guthrie and Duncan and they're getting on as well. Like the team itself, it's good enough to get the job done during home and away, especially at Geelong or against lower quality opposition (and those two factors provide a lot of wins). They get found wanting when the temperature goes up in September. No one wants to admit they've become brittle and frontrunners, especially the stars, so it's easier to invent or exaggerate excuses.

It's much simpler. They aren't as good as we want to believe. That goes for Selwood and Dangerfield as much as Parfitt and O'Connor.
And we just signed Guthrie until the end of 2025.
 

dazbroncos

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I mean to be fair that deal was a cock up (not least their trading for wces future 1st without checking if freo would take it then bending over and giving up pick 2 anyway) because gc had a player exodus and were so desperate to get anyone that they decided to overpay and weller wanted to go there (in a way that a lot of players dont with bottom clubs) because he was an academy player there and had ties there. Its more an outlier than anything because there arent many other deals like it for top 5 picks.
agreed... its the exception at best.

GO Catters
 

Turbocat

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All true, my issue comes when the same people who say the above (which again, is accurate), also sook and whinge when the cats bow out in finals.
People can't have it both ways, they aren't that good and overachieve due to the above, AND should have won the flag and anything short is abysmal failure.
It's one or the other, which ironically I think have switched a few times over the last 10 years.


Its really hard to gauge with the structure of our side. Partridge says..They aren't as good as we want to believe.


Id say that maybe They aren't as good as they want to believe.


You cant go from Melb yoyo from PF to bottom to top ..without showing that there is a fine line between success and abismal.


What works thru the season against sides that rarely go as hard as they do in finals, when mentally you can temper your nerves with the knowledge they can have a bad day and still have next week, but when its finals ... we seem to find out that we have a few Tank Murdochs are not as good as they think they are, or not as good as they once were.

Players or style?


The alternative is that the style that we play has hidden the truth or allowed them to slip away from what works under that extreme finals heat.


I believe we have had a side capable of winning it. Under performance when it counts is reflection not on if you are good enough, it whether we have been truly ready to perform. I'll give one or two years of bad luck and injuries, and plague and team disruption and our biorhythms not being in their ultimate zen ... but our finals numbers tells the story.

Bottom line... What we have done to get to the finals is not good enough when we get there.
 

Turbocat

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IMO Freo robbed GCS for pick 2... id suggest getting the sucker born every minute is a little harder these days.

GO Catters

Arhh. yesss ..WC Lets inject the oranges The man who never drank water cause it rusted pipes.


Whats the price of any product in a moment of desperation. Whats a glass of water worth in the middle of a desert, whats a rope worth when you're flaying around about to go down for the third time..
 
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Mad_Hatter

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Its really hard to gauge with the structure of our side. Partridge says..They aren't as good as we want to believe.


Id say that maybe They aren't as good as they want to believe.


You cant go from Melb yoyo from PF to bottom to top ..without showing that there is a fine line between success and abismal.


What works thru the season against sides that rarely go as hard as they do in finals, when mentally you can temper your nerves with the knowledge they can have a bad day and still have next week, but when its finals ... we seem to find out that we have a few Tank Murdochs are not as good as they think they are, or not as good as they once were.

Players or style?


The alternative is that the style that we play has hidden the truth or allowed them to slip away from what works under that extreme finals heat.


I believe we have had a side capable of winning it. Under performance when it counts is reflection not on if you are good enough, it whether we have been truly ready to perform. I'll give one or two years of bad luck and injuries, and plague and team disruption and our biorhythms not being in their ultimate zen ... but our finals numbers tells the story.

Bottom line... What we have done to get to the finals is not good enough when we get there.

This here HAS to be the biggest question at the club.
It's probably too simple to say we rely on the top handful of players and that's good enough to win home and away games, but in finals you need the rest of the team to take the step up. Too simple because we no longer rely on a small handful like we did when it was genuinely ONLY a Selwood midfield, nor do you really need the whole team to take a step up, Melbourne replied on their stars to win the flag last year. I think that's the biggest issue, to me it seems our best players are either inconsistent, too easily taken out of games, or don't have that next gear to succeed in finals, but even then that's a really simplistic point of view.
We might not ever know the answer, but the question has to be constantly asked.

This is why it's such a frustrating decade of football, we've had a team that's shown to be really really good through the minor rounds, then turn to water almost every single time they faced finals.
 

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Partridge

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This here HAS to be the biggest question at the club.
It's probably too simple to say we rely on the top handful of players and that's good enough to win home and away games, but in finals you need the rest of the team to take the step up. Too simple because we no longer rely on a small handful like we did when it was genuinely ONLY a Selwood midfield, nor do you really need the whole team to take a step up, Melbourne replied on their stars to win the flag last year. I think that's the biggest issue, to me it seems our best players are either inconsistent, too easily taken out of games, or don't have that next gear to succeed in finals, but even then that's a really simplistic point of view.
We might not ever know the answer, but the question has to be constantly asked.

I don't think it was ever just a Selwood midfield. Very easy simplification but overlooks a lot of other midfielders who were all there before and during.
 

Art Vandelay_

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How do you think the midfield goes missing in finals, when it looks so strong during the season?

It’s a complete mystery to me why this happens.
Pressure.
Game plan.
Lack of ruck dominance.

Combination thereof
More than one thing can be true at once though. You won't get an argument from me about the midfield, and there isn't one midfielder we have who emerges with credit from our finals performances.
IMO it is the primary problem. All other finals related reasons being solved likely don't change many of the results if this isn't rectified.
Hence why I am so disenchanted about the next crop.

The Parfitt, Narkle and Constable grouping. Don't rate two of them at all and Narkle probably has this season to show his worth.
Here's hoping the Stephens, Holmes, Knevitt and Simpson bracket does better.

As an aside if we look at the 2016-21 period for finals among midfielders then Selwood emerges with a pass. I don't really think that's a controversial opinion.
But that still doesn't excuse guys like Rohan though. He's in that large bucket of players who were mature and seasoned, and so the argument runs, ready to perform and don't need development.
IMV you are overly harsh on Rohan. In anyone's language his trade has been successful.
Has done more than what can be expected from the pick used to get him, handsomely too.

Okay, he falls over in finals. He's 16th-22nd in the team and our 3rd forward. These guys should be aiming to help us win finals, but our fortunes are hardly decided by whether or not a 1.3 goal a game 3rd forward plays well. Recent seasons show that the reason for defeat goes far far deeper.


We have been saying for yonks that is a major problem. but unlike you we actually try to think of the solution rather then just hope.

The solution was a more attacking strategy of pushing the ball foward More quickly rather then trying to grab and hold on to it which became way too predictable. Having a decent tap ruckman would of also helped the mids out.

The only solution now, however, is a rebuild. And Whats your solution? Players to just magically become younger and better? You state cause and effect but then provide none of it. Whats your cause and effect.
Not sure why you bother. Not like I'll engage you in debate.
 

MacStradbroke

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More than one thing can be true at once though. You won't get an argument from me about the midfield, and there isn't one midfielder we have who emerges with credit from our finals performances. But that still doesn't excuse guys like Rohan though. He's in that large bucket of players who were mature and seasoned, and so the argument runs, ready to perform and don't need development. But his abysmal finals record for Sydney has repeated and should not surprise anyone. Yes the ball has to get to him. But his repeated appalling efforts can't be excused by midfield delivery. He just isn't good enough when the pressure is on. Unfortunately that covers many players in the team all over the field.
You talking this year or overall in general? Harsh on Selwood if the latter as they were showing stats throughout the finals with Joel sitting at 3rd or 4th on Champion Data’s best statistical finals players since they started taking stats. Saw it a few times, dusty was 1, I think Goodes was high on the list but a couple of others surprised me.
 

The rabbi

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2022-Where’s the improvement coming from?

If it does not come from the 25 and under group, then I don't think that any improvement is coming in 2022.
 

Drunkcat

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2022-Where’s the improvement coming from?

If it does not come from the 25 and under group, then I don't think that any improvement is coming in 2022.
Only my opinion i don't think we can win the flag this year, Unless like you say players under 25 are in our best 22 everyweek....and i am only interested in new good new players...And i think N Stevens should get games on the wing this year would be in our 10 ten best field kickers, looked better on the wing in the VFl player to watch this year
 

Drunkcat

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2 more i am looking forward to watching, Frank the tank will need to show something this year as he only got 1 more year contract, and Stengle don't think i have seen him play but like Frank he needs to show something, I see this year the start of the re-build best 22.. and i am excited to watch who will put their hand up..bring it on
 

The rabbi

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Only my opinion i don't think we can win the flag this year, Unless like you say players under 25 are in our best 22 everyweek....and i am only interested in new good new players...And i think N Stevens should get games on the wing this year would be in our 10 ten best field kickers, looked better on the wing in the VFl player to watch this year

I don't think that they can win it either.
I just think that we will go backwards considerably unless improvement comes through the circa 25 group. I am also mainly interested in the new/er recruits.
 

catscollector

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I don't think that they can win it either.
I just think that we will go backwards considerably unless improvement comes through the circa 25 group. I am also mainly interested in the new/er recruits.

We will be struggling to make the finals but that is a great sign as it means we are playing the next crop of future stars. It's much better than making up the numbers and giving ourselves a pat on the back for achieving finals for a record time.
 

CatRiot

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Max Holmes had a better first year at the club than Dangerfield's first year at the Crows. For some minor context. Holmes also played his first year at same Height/Weight as Dangerfield @ 189cn and 83kgs. Let's hope he can put on the same size and not lose speed.

Let's see if Holmes can get to a 1 goal a game average in year 2 like Dangerfield did. Though Dangerfield did start his career mainly as a forward. Dangerfield was a best 22 player and a decent one at year 2, but it wasn't until probably his 5th season that he elevated to gun status.
 

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