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List Mgmt. 2023 AFL Draft

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Yup all well and good. As I asked, can you name the players we should have drafted and didn’t?

The concept is a good one. Draft the talented talls early - I’m on board with this. Problem is there aren’t many of them. We chose Mitch over De Koning, so a tall over a tall. And we took Rozee over King, so a star mid over a star tall. Any other times we haven’t taken a KPP when available?

As for not being able to bring in players - where is the evidence? Alir left Sydney in contract. Dixon left his home state. Rioli left west coast. Burton, Polec, Raz and JHF came to port. Sav wanted to come but Geelong said no a second round pick. We have a good history of trading in players. Melbourne traded in their premiership defence.

Cal Wilkie is arguably the best performed defender this year. Plucked from the SANFL, is 190cm and playing in the best team defence system.

Zerk-Thatcher who everyone seems keen on had a bag kicked on him. Cameron has regularly kicked big bags this year. Dixon beat Harris Andrews this year. Curnow kicked 9. Ben McKay, who we are apparently into and was an earyish pick, conceded more goals than anyone this season.
 
Long live PAFC said:
Yup all well and good. As I asked, can you name the players we should have drafted and didn’t?

The concept is a good one. Draft the talented talls early - I’m on board with this. Problem is there aren’t many of them. We chose Mitch over De Koning, so a tall over a tall. And we took Rozee over King, so a star mid over a star tall. Any other times we haven’t taken a KPP when available?

As for not being able to bring in players - where is the evidence? Alir left Sydney in contract. Dixon left his home state. Rioli left west coast. Burton, Polec, Raz and JHF came to port. Sav wanted to come but Geelong said no a second round pick. We have a good history of trading in players. Melbourne traded in their premiership defence.

Cal Wilkie is arguably the best performed defender this year. Plucked from the SANFL, is 190cm and playing in the best team defence system.

Zerk-Thatcher who everyone seems keen on had a bag kicked on him. Cameron has regularly kicked big bags this year. Dixon beat Harris Andrews this year. Curnow kicked 9. Ben McKay, who we are apparently into and was an earyish pick, conceded more goals than anyone this season.
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There’s been a number key defenders/tall backs we’ve over looked in the draft the last number of years.

Only talking key defenders here so Dixon, Rioli etc don’t have anything to do with the discussion.

2016: took atley and drew, few picks later goes Brennan Cox (conveniently also an SA lad).

2017: we basically traded out of this draft but still took Farrell over Payne whose now locked into the lions backline.

2018: Was a good midfield haul and absolutely Rozee was the correct option here.

2019: Bergman and Goergiades when SDK was there. Williams and Mead when Gould and Worrell were there. 3 options we took none.

2020: Nothing year for kpd

2021: Sinn over Aleer, think we also threw in an extra second rounder and could have also had access to Bazzo. Yes Sinn will potentially be the better player but Aleer would complement our list and address our structure much better.

So there has been a number of KPD we’ve chosen to over look over the years. No a revisionist view of the draft isnt perfect but there’s some there we certainly should have taken the chance on. Cox is the big one that stands out that if we had in our side now, would completely change our backline. Also SDK, we knew how light we were down back by the end of 2019 and had 2 picks in his range. Still chose not to address the issue. Bergman should have been SDK.

List management is about future foresight and planning for 3-4 years down the track. It was so obvious we would reach this point years ago but instead of addressing it through the draft, we have gone with the approach of well we can trade for it when we need it. Jonas is finished. Mckenzie is on his last legs and then we have no one in that 22-25 bracket ready to take the lead and is 50+ games into their career.

It takes years to develop these key defenders so you have to draft them before you actually need to rely on them. Not the other way around that you are reliant on getting a key defender to fill a current hole so need to go hunting for one.
 
On Gettable, Cal Twomey said that Ben McKay, Denver Grainger-Barras and Jordon Sweet are gettable in the off season.
 
powerrrrrrrrrrrr said:
There’s been a number key defenders/tall backs we’ve over looked in the draft the last number of years.

Only talking key defenders here so Dixon, Rioli etc don’t have anything to do with the discussion.

2016: took atley and drew, few picks later goes Brennan Cox (conveniently also an SA lad).

2017: we basically traded out of this draft but still took Farrell over Payne whose now locked into the lions backline.

2018: Was a good midfield haul and absolutely Rozee was the correct option here.

2019: Bergman and Goergiades when SDK was there. Williams and Mead when Gould and Worrell were there. 3 options we took none.

2020: Nothing year for kpd

2021: Sinn over Aleer, think we also threw in an extra second rounder and could have also had access to Bazzo. Yes Sinn will potentially be the better player but Aleer would complement our list and address our structure much better.

So there has been a number of KPD we’ve chosen to over look over the years. No a revisionist view of the draft isnt perfect but there’s some there we certainly should have taken the chance on. Cox is the big one that stands out that if we had in our side now, would completely change our backline. Also SDK, we knew how light we were down back by the end of 2019 and had 2 picks in his range. Still chose not to address the issue. Bergman should have been SDK.

List management is about future foresight and planning for 3-4 years down the track. It was so obvious we would reach this point years ago but instead of addressing it through the draft, we have gone with the approach of well we can trade for it when we need it. Jonas is finished. Mckenzie is on his last legs and then we have no one in that 22-25 bracket ready to take the lead and is 50+ games into their career.

It takes years to develop these key defenders so you have to draft them before you actually need to rely on them. Not the other way around that you are reliant on getting a key defender to fill a current hole so need to go hunting for one.
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Hang on, you’ve said first round KPDs. All those you’ve named, bar SDK, were later round picks.

Mitch, a KPF, we took ahead of SDK and we were hoping Sam would get to our next pick.

Cox was a ruck/KPF in junior years. Aleer would have been a reach at our pick. Payne is getting games because the lions have no one else.

If we are just talking ‘we should have taken KPDs full stop’, well - Skinner, Grundy, Lienert, Austin, Pasini and we’ve trialled Lord and Teakle back there. You have to rinse and repeat with Talls. It’s challenging to let them all develop within the limitations of the SANFL set up (ie letting Hayes, Teakle and Visentini develop their ruck craft in the one team). But the idea that we haven’t drafted enough or appropriately is false and same for the fail to develop talls BS.

Don’t get me wrong, we should draft a high quality KPD, but hard to do if they aren’t there. And I’m still not sure why we should trade them in?
 

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Long live PAFC said:
Hang on, you’ve said first round KPDs. All those you’ve named, bar SDK, were later round picks.

Mitch, a KPF, we took ahead of SDK and we were hoping Sam would get to our next pick.

Cox was a ruck/KPF in junior years. Aleer would have been a reach at our pick. Payne is getting games because the lions have no one else.

If we are just talking ‘we should have taken KPDs full stop’, well - Skinner, Grundy, Lienert, Austin, Pasini and we’ve trialled Lord and Teakle back there. You have to rinse and repeat with Talls. It’s challenging to let them all develop within the limitations of the SANFL set up (ie letting Hayes, Teakle and Visentini develop their ruck craft in the one team). But the idea that we haven’t drafted enough or appropriately is false and same for the fail to develop talls BS.

Don’t get me wrong, we should draft a high quality KPD, but hard to do if they aren’t there. And I’m still not sure why we should trade them in?
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From what I remember after or during the draft it was said we were hard hard into Sam dekoning and wanted him, but we went with Mitch. Our plan was to take Sam if Mitch wasn’t there.

Ironically geelong were the rumoured team into mitch, we didn’t think he would get past geelongs pick so that’s why we traded our future first for brisbanes pick (which we used on Mitch)

Having said that I’m 100% positive in a sliding doors moment we take Sam in that draft that he’s still playing sanfl.
 
Long live PAFC said:
But the idea that we haven’t drafted enough or appropriately is false and same for the fail to develop talls BS
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We’ve used 1 first round pick in 20 years on a key defender. You don’t think across a 20 year period only using 1 high draft pick in such a key area isn’t failing to draft appropriately?

Aleer and SDK both first rounders recently we had access to. Worrell, Gould, Cox all second rounders. Worrell has had his injury issues but he’s a good size and Gould has had a number of very strong years in the reserves but just can’t break in at the swans.

We don’t even target key defenders often with second round picks. Outside of McCullum and Clurey, that’s again only 2 second rounders in about 15 years.

Long live PAFC said:
If we are just talking ‘we should have taken KPDs full stop’, well - Skinner, Grundy, Lienert, Austin, Pasini and we’ve trialled Lord and Teakle back there. You have to rinse and repeat with Talls.
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Then look at these names all takes very late/rookies and there’s a reason they haven’t made it. The success rate that late in the draft is minimal.

We need to use the draft better with 1st and 2nd round picks targeting key defenders.

Imagine if we took this approach with our key forwards and just decided over 20 years to never select one early… wouldn’t happen.
 
Peninsula Boy said:
On Gettable, Cal Twomey said that Ben McKay, Denver Grainger-Barras and Jordon Sweet are gettable in the off season.
Click to expand...
Jordan Sweet would be ironic given my understanding is that he had very similar off field issues to Ladhams and they were good mates..

On SM-G975F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
powerrrrrrrrrrrr said:
We’ve used 1 first round pick in 20 years on a key defender. You don’t think across a 20 year period only using 1 high draft pick in such a key area isn’t failing to draft appropriately?

Aleer and SDK both first rounders recently we had access to. Worrell, Gould, Cox all second rounders. Worrell has had his injury issues but he’s a good size and Gould has had a number of very strong years in the reserves but just can’t break in at the swans.

We don’t even target key defenders often with second round picks. Outside of McCullum and Clurey, that’s again only 2 second rounders in about 15 years.



Then look at these names all takes very late/rookies and there’s a reason they haven’t made it. The success rate that late in the draft is minimal.

We need to use the draft better with 1st and 2nd round picks targeting key defenders.

Imagine if we took this approach with our key forwards and just decided over 20 years to never select one early… wouldn’t happen.
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Yup don’t disagree but it’s not that easy. We haven’t had the opportunities.

Carlton have been terrible for 20 years - as a result they’ve been able to get 3 high end KPPs in McKay, Curnow and Weitering. No guarantee though - look at DGB at Hawthorn or Durdin at North. Moore was a father son. Stewart a mature ager at Geelong. Jones was borderline delist as a forward before being moved back. McCartin never got a shot as a forward and was a mature pick at Sydney. Andrews was an academy pick.

All well and good to look at drafts in hindsight but you can only go on what info you have at the time. We’ve also done very well from late picks and trades.

Just about every club wants KPDs and rucks right now. Great time to be 190-200cm tall, almost guarantees you a run on a list.

As to being able to predict this - we have Pasini developing, Clurey/McKenzie ready to step in and Jonas/Alir front line. They’ve been a solid unit for years. Many defenders play after 29 and are solid performers. I Thought McKenzie was done but he has been arguably our best performed defender. Clurey and Jonas have lost all ability and aren’t AFL quality anymore. Pasini is still recovering from his ACL injury and his development has been very stop start. We tried to get Sav. We’ve also tried Lord and Teakle back there - like Carlton did with Jones or Sydney with the McCartin’s. I reckon the club has done what it can to solve the KPD issues.
 
If we had dropped Jonas last year, or any one of the other underperforming defenders, snd played pasini last year, then added 2 more in the draft as we did, people would be feeling a lot better about our key defender stocks.


Hinkleys reluctance to ditch his favourites when they’re well past it, and reluctance to blood key defenders early makes things worse than they should be.

We could have gone into this year with pasini about 10 afl games under his belt, Alir and the best in form player out of clurey Jonas and McKenzie fighting for a spot (which has easily been Trent)

And we would look a fair bit better and we would all feel more comfortable with where our stocks are at.
 

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philthy05 said:
If we had dropped Jonas last year, or any one of the other underperforming defenders, snd played pasini last year, then added 2 more in the draft as we did, people would be feeling a lot better about our key defender stocks.


Hinkleys reluctance to ditch his favourites when they’re well past it, and reluctance to blood key defenders early makes things worse than they should be.

We could have gone into this year with pasini about 10 afl games under his belt, Alir and the best in form player out of clurey Jonas and McKenzie fighting for a spot (which has easily been Trent)

And we would look a fair bit better and we would all feel more comfortable with where our stocks are at.
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Come on Philthy - no team drops their captain. Ditching his favourites is a bit much when it’s the team’s captain, a captain he himself didn’t chose.

Besides Pasini did his knee. And you even said Pasini wasn’t ready when I raised concerns about Jake’s future on the list after he was overlooked for a one legged Jonas and one legged McKenzie. How’s Jake been this year by the way, was keen to see if he had kept that athleticism he had developed prior to the knee?

As to not blooding them, what about Skinner? Or Howard? Or Austin? Or Marshall and Ladhams, albeit in the forward line or ruck? Clurey was made to wait but Jonas was given 20 odd games when Hinkley first came to the club in just his third season and with just 10 ish games under his belt.
 
powerrrrrrrrrrrr said:
We’ve used 1 first round pick in 20 years on a key defender. You don’t think across a 20 year period only using 1 high draft pick in such a key area isn’t failing to draft appropriately?

Aleer and SDK both first rounders recently we had access to. Worrell, Gould, Cox all second rounders. Worrell has had his injury issues but he’s a good size and Gould has had a number of very strong years in the reserves but just can’t break in at the swans.

We don’t even target key defenders often with second round picks. Outside of McCullum and Clurey, that’s again only 2 second rounders in about 15 years.



Then look at these names all takes very late/rookies and there’s a reason they haven’t made it. The success rate that late in the draft is minimal.

We need to use the draft better with 1st and 2nd round picks targeting key defenders.

Imagine if we took this approach with our key forwards and just decided over 20 years to never select one early… wouldn’t happen.
Click to expand...

West Coast, in the same period, have also only used 1 first rounder on a KPD. They are a club who in that time period have won multiple flags from multiple other grand final appearances and have had a very good backline for much of that period.

The last time Sydney used a first rounder on a KPD was in 1997 with Jason Saddington. Another club that has won multiple premierships from multiple other grand final appearances in the last 20 years, who have also had a very good backline for most of that period.

Hawthorn is another club who have only used 1 first rounder on a KPD in the last 20 years, arguably the most successful club in that period.

Key defenders are routinely considered more bargain pickups than a necessary high end pick.
 
Macca19 said:
West Coast, in the same period, have also only used 1 first rounder on a KPD. They are a club who in that time period have won multiple flags from multiple other grand final appearances and have had a very good backline for much of that period.

The last time Sydney used a first rounder on a KPD was in 1997 with Jason Saddington. Another club that has won multiple premierships from multiple other grand final appearances in the last 20 years, who have also had a very good backline for most of that period.

Hawthorn is another club who have only used 1 first rounder on a KPD in the last 20 years, arguably the most successful club in that period.

Key defenders are routinely considered more bargain pickups than a necessary high end pick.
Click to expand...

Crows used pick 4 on 1 and now he's not on there list only a few seasons after
 
Long live PAFC said:
Come on Philthy - no team drops their captain.
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Generally no team picks a guy as captain who's clearly not in their best 22 either, but here we are.
 
Bevoman said:
Be carefull what you wish for.
In the last five years, Fanta has played more games than Ben McKay.
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Yeah, I have slowed down on Ben McKay. I don't know if it is just the Kangaroos bad facilities or if he is just injury prone. I think his twin has played plenty. I just checked it up 94 games so pretty good.

We just have to get the intel whether his injuries are problematic or if comes in and our medical guys can help him.

I don't want another Fanta especially at a position of huge need.
 

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We have really not done so well with key backs.

I am really hoping we get the luck of the Melbourne Demons and find our version of Jake Lever and Steven May in the off season.
 

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List Mgmt. 2023 AFL Draft

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