List Mgmt. 2023 List Management and Trading

[George CantStandYa]

Jeez Kramer, you are usually less pot-shotty than this!

I’m saying “We are in the middle of a rebuild” … we are not polishing up, we are not putting on the icing, we are are not even close to that - and yet you are upset about us trying a player at the very bottom of our playing list that has potential upside.

You are upset that this spot wasn’t given to a potential KPD … a potential KPD that is still available at the end of January. ALL of the players taken at this stage are low percentage choices.

Which player would you have offered the spot to? For reference.

If you want to stay angry that “we let it get this way” by losing Billy and Fish - I’m confused again. Billy was not what we needed, Fish was a write off.

I think you are putting way way too much weight into this decision.

Do you really think we are pushing out the end of our rebuild because of Brown? Really? You must have some awesome foresight to see that chain of events.

I’m happy that the guy we are giving a shot looks different to what we have, good evasion - good disposal - good pedigree.

Our backline looks fine to me. It is impossible to create a perfect list, but surely you can look no further than the last successful rebuild of Richmond (Richmond premiership teams - Wikipedia) to see that?

Because I don’t agree with the decision and responded to your post agreeing criticising those who share my view and that means I’m upset? Think you need to revisit the definition of upset.

Murray came to us when? I don’t follow the lower leagues and junior football so it’s not up to me to come up with names.

This is the same blokes who brought in Turner which turned out to be a dumb decision. Sorry I think adding a reject mid to our large list of mids is another dumb one when we have a shortage of key position defenders. We need elite top end mids not rejects.

 

[1970crow]

Because I don’t agree with the decision and responded to your post agreeing criticising those who share my view and that means I’m upset? Think you need to revisit the definition of upset.

Murray came to us when? I don’t follow the lower leagues and junior football so it’s not up to me to come up with names.

This is the same blokes who brought in Turner which turned out to be a dumb decision. Sorry I think adding a reject mid to our large list of mids is another dumb one when we have a shortage of key position defenders. We need elite top end mids not rejects.

At the end of the day, I reckon they've simply grabbed the player they reckon is most likely to be a functional AFL player. Come mid season draft, if we've a position to protect or our KPD stocks are depleted/found out, then they might settle for a big body with no upside to support that group. But we're going to go a dozen games with 2 obvious (butts/Murray), 1 undersized that we might as well try before delisting (Borlase), 2 not quite tall/strong enough (Worrell/Dood) and 1 experimental (Berg). In the space of a dozen games in a rebuild, I don't see an issue with this. Plus we deliberately played 1 KPD against 2 KPF sides last year anyway. It didn't work, but you can see why they didn't scramble for a solid SANFL type support act.

 

[George CantStandYa]

At the end of the day, I reckon they've simply grabbed the player they reckon is most likely to be a functional AFL player. Come mid season draft, if we've a position to protect or our KPD stocks are depleted/found out, then they might settle for a big body with no upside to support that group. But we're going to go a dozen games with 2 obvious (butts/Murray), 1 undersized that we might as well try before delisting (Borlase), 2 not quite tall/strong enough (Worrell/Dood) and 1 experimental (Berg). In the space of a dozen games in a rebuild, I don't see an issue with this. Plus we deliberately played 1 KPD against 2 KPF sides last year anyway. It didn't work, but you can see why they didn't scramble for a solid SANFL type support act.

I agree that’s what we’ve done with Brown which is dumb. We don’t need his type when we’ve go so many on the list already needing games.

It’s not just for this year we are light on KPD, it’s a rebuild and we don’t have any developing, not counting Borlase as I don’t reckon he will be on the list at the end of the year. There must be one young KPD they can take a punt on now rather than compete with other teams in the MSD

 

[1970crow]

I agree that’s what we’ve done with Brown which is dumb. We don’t need his type when we’ve go so many on the list already needing games.

It’s not just for this year we are light on KPD, it’s a rebuild and we don’t have any developing, not counting Borlase as I don’t reckon he will be on the list at the end of the year. There must be one young KPD they can take a punt on now rather than compete with other teams in the MSD

I'm in 2 minds on why we went with him. There's also a fair chance they're building their depth too. We've got some young mids not in our last 22, but none have 3-4 years of regular footy and full preseasons under their belts. I think they are geared at depth and there wasn't any RTG KPDs around. Mid season is probably better for that given the exposed form. We'd probably have re-grabbed Turner if he didn't can the footy dept guys.

 

[baldandbroke]

Because I don’t agree with the decision and responded to your post agreeing criticising those who share my view and that means I’m upset? Think you need to revisit the definition of upset.

Murray came to us when? I don’t follow the lower leagues and junior football so it’s not up to me to come up with names.

This is the same blokes who brought in Turner which turned out to be a dumb decision. Sorry I think adding a reject mid to our large list of mids is another dumb one when we have a shortage of key position defenders. We need elite top end mids not rejects.

Ok - you aren't upset? Cool. Me neither.

I don't think we have the glut of proven midfield options - lots of maybes in that list. No problems imo adding another possible ONCE the spot became available - even if the chances of Tyler coming through are small, he has shown some good signs at AFL level:

Heroic Pie's mighty minute

Damian Barrett and Nathan Brown praise Tyler Brown for his match-defining efforts against Carlton on Access All Areas

www.afl.com.au

I don't think the shortage in the key defenders is a problem at all, not at the moment.

My point is that we aren't making decisions at this time of year that will shift the needle for our rebuild. Adding a "reject" mid or a "reject" key position player, is neither here nor there.

Saying we need "elite top end mids not rejects" is about as weird a thing as you could have posted on this particular topic. There aren't too many elite mids floating around for pre-season supplemental selection!

I'm just glad no-one is upset - and we can look ahead to our squad taking another step forward in 2023

 

[George CantStandYa]

Ok - you aren't upset? Cool. Me neither.

I don't think we have the glut of proven midfield options - lots of maybes in that list. No problems imo adding another possible ONCE the spot became available - even if the chances of Tyler coming through are small, he has shown some good signs at AFL level:

Heroic Pie's mighty minute

Damian Barrett and Nathan Brown praise Tyler Brown for his match-defining efforts against Carlton on Access All Areas

www.afl.com.au

I don't think the shortage in the key defenders is a problem at all, not at the moment.

My point is that we aren't making decisions at this time of year that will shift the needle for our rebuild. Adding a "reject" mid or a "reject" key position player, is neither here nor there.

Saying we need "elite top end mids not rejects" is about as weird a thing as you could have posted on this particular topic. There aren't too many elite mids floating around for pre-season supplemental selection!

I'm just glad no-one is upset - and we can look ahead to our squad taking another step forward in 2023

We have a bunch of maybes on the list, agreed, how about we play them to find out before adding a reject mid from another club.

As for my comment about elite mids, it’s only weird if you interpreted that as me saying we add one of those now. I’ve said we should be adding to our key defenders in this period. At the draft and trade period we should try to find an elite mid, we’ve had plenty of high picks to try and do so.

 

[Mutineer]

I'm in 2 minds on why we went with him. There's also a fair chance they're building their depth too. We've got some young mids not in our last 22, but none have 3-4 years of regular footy and full preseasons under their belts. I think they are geared at depth and there wasn't any RTG KPDs around. Mid season is probably better for that given the exposed form. We'd probably have re-grabbed Turner if he didn't can the footy dept guys.

I agree with this, about the only mature aged KPD that was talked about as being a serious draft chance by the pundits was Port Melbourne's VFL Ethan Phillips and he was overlooked in both the National Draft and Rookie Draft by all AFL clubs even as a depth option so obviously the recruiters weren't sure if he makes the transition to AFL level...from my limited viewing of him he's more a mobile interceptor than a genuine body on body KPD. That only left 18/19 year old KPD prospects to choose from, IMO it might have been worth having a look at a couple of the SA lads without making any promises, the Rooster's Shaun Bennier who did quite well at the Nationals and/or Central's Brodie Tuck, both already quite strongly built lads with good talent to my eye.

 

[1970crow]

I agree with this, about the only mature aged KPD that was talked about as being a serious draft chance by the pundits was Port Melbourne's VFL Ethan Phillips and he was overlooked in both the National Draft and Rookie Draft by all AFL clubs even as a depth option so obviously the recruiters weren't sure if he makes the transition to AFL level...from my limited viewing of him he's more a mobile interceptor than a genuine body on body KPD. That only left 18/19 year old KPD prospects to choose from, IMO it might have been worth having a look at a couple of the SA lads without making any promises, the Rooster's Shaun Bennier who did quite well at the Nationals and/or Central's Brodie Tuck, both already quite strongly built lads with good talent to my eye.

I’d imagine though, in terms of ceiling projection, that if you’re already a strongly built KPP and slip through 2 drafts then you’re probably not rated in any way.

Overall though, I don’t agree that we should in any way be geared at depth. I’d be looking at ‘not perfect’ talent, late converts, proportionally challenged. We’re not winning a final this year and missing out on a couple of wins won’t make us the Carlton/Melbourne of old. They were clubs with crap cultures from the top.

 

[Mostyn]

If we're talking a year contract on the rookie list, I'd rather we took the best high upside player taller than 195cm - no matter his position - and we have a bit of a look.

We have too many mids we need to give time to, I don't think that makes sense.

 

[baldandbroke]

We have a bunch of maybes on the list, agreed, how about we play them to find out before adding a reject mid from another club.

As for my comment about elite mids, it’s only weird if you interpreted that as me saying we add one of those now. I’ve said we should be adding to our key defenders in this period. At the draft and trade period we should try to find an elite mid, we’ve had plenty of high picks to try and do so.

Last few trade and draft periods we have added:

Keays
Dawson
Rankine
Rachelle
Soligo
Berry
Taylor
Dowling
Bond

Nicks also moved Laird to the mids - which has resulted in him being considered an elite mid by the entire competition.

I think we are having a crack at trying to improve the talent in our midfield.

I think the bit we are disagreeing on on is that this is a decision that we should be smashing the club about. I've seen plenty on here talk about how stupid we are to try Brown, how crazy it is. To me it is not important enough to anything we are doing to be above a mild interest. I think Brown has potential, more than Turner - worth a look at a new club where he will no longer have the weight of the Brown name hanging over him.

 

[George CantStandYa]

Last few trade and draft periods we have added:

Keays
Dawson
Rankine
Rachelle
Soligo
Berry
Taylor
Dowling
Bond

Nicks also moved Laird to the mids - which has resulted in him being considered an elite mid by the entire competition.

I think we are having a crack at trying to improve the talent in our midfield.

I think the bit we are disagreeing on on is that this is a decision that we should be smashing the club about. I've seen plenty on here talk about how stupid we are to try Brown, how crazy it is. To me it is not important enough to anything we are doing to be above a mild interest. I think Brown has potential, more than Turner - worth a look at a new club where he will no longer have the weight of the Brown name hanging over him.

The decision to draft Brown is a dumb unnecessary one and that’s what’s being discussed, that’s not “smashing” the club merely pointing out the obvious.

 

[Mostyn]

Maybe we see Brown taking the old Brown role in defense?

That'll help keep things simple ...

 

[maxlilly]

Instead of picking both Bond and Dowling in the draft, one should have been Kyle Marshall as a KPD
At least try and find some depth in that position, and he may even surprise and become a good defender in a couple of years and still worthy of a spot on the list in the future

 

[1970crow]

Last few trade and draft periods we have added:

Keays
Dawson
Rankine
Rachelle
Soligo
Berry
Taylor
Dowling
Bond

Nicks also moved Laird to the mids - which has resulted in him being considered an elite mid by the entire competition.

I think we are having a crack at trying to improve the talent in our midfield.

I think the bit we are disagreeing on on is that this is a decision that we should be smashing the club about. I've seen plenty on here talk about how stupid we are to try Brown, how crazy it is. To me it is not important enough to anything we are doing to be above a mild interest. I think Brown has potential, more than Turner - worth a look at a new club where he will no longer have the weight of the Brown name hanging over him.

Disagree that Laird is an elite mid of the comp. He’s a great accumulator, but has little hurt factor. He’d be a foot soldier in a top end midfield. Elite in ours though.

 

[Mutineer]

Maybe we see Brown taking the old Brown role in defense?

That'll help keep things simple ...

I think that's more likely the reason why we drafted Hugh Bond, his shut down jobs on the dangerous small/medium forwards at the Nationals Carnival were unbelievably good for a lad that had played midfield all year for the Rebels.

 

[Mostyn]

I think that's more likely the reason why we drafted Hugh Bond, his shut down jobs on the dangerous small/medium forwards at the Nationals Carnival were unbelievably good for a lad that had played midfield all year for the Rebels.

I agree. I was thinking about what our gaps were, and I was mostly making a joke ...

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Problem is every time we push Dawson into defence his opponent instantly drags him back to the goal square

Exactly … coaches aren’t stupid

 

[baldandbroke]

The decision to draft Brown is a dumb unnecessary one and that’s what’s being discussed, that’s not “smashing” the club merely pointing out the obvious.

What is being discussed between you and me is that you believe adding a mid from the talent available is ******* madness, but adding a KPD from the available talent is good list management.

You are talking about our list like we are at the point that we need to mind the finest details or we risk screwing up the whole shebang.

I don't see that at all.

If we somehow sneak into finals in 2023, we will be making up the numbers because some other team has fallen in a hole. We are not competing for the premiership yet, surely no-one expects these decisions to bite us in a prelim or alike at the end of the year?

If we have gaping holes in the list going into the 2025 season, I'll join in the chorus.

 

[Mutineer]

Instead of picking both Bond and Dowling in the draft, one should have been Kyle Marshall as a KPD
At least try and find some depth in that position, and he may even surprise and become a good defender in a couple of years and still worthy of a spot on the list in the future

I was just about the only one on here from early on that saw Kyle Marshall as a possible later pick for us but let's not kid ourselves he's a good 2 or 3 years away from being truly AFL ready bodywise so he's really not an immediate answer to our KPD depth.


Edit*
I suspect Himmelberg might get a shot if we really get desperate through injury....what I don't quite understand is why he hasn't been tried down back in all the time he's been with us without ever locking in a forward role. History shows failed KPF's often get another crack at AFL as defenders and make a real good fist of it. i.e Liam Jones and Paddy MsCartin in recent times.

 

[George CantStandYa]

What is being discussed between you and me is that you believe adding a mid from the talent available is ******* madness, but adding a KPD from the available talent is good list management.

You are talking about our list like we are at the point that we need to mind the finest details or we risk screwing up the whole shebang.

I don't see that at all.

If we somehow sneak into finals in 2023, we will be making up the numbers because some other team has fallen in a hole. We are not competing for the premiership yet, surely no-one expects these decisions to bite us in a prelim or alike at the end of the year?

If we have gaping holes in the list going into the 2025 season, I'll join in the chorus.

You’ve got a habit of making stuff up, where has anyone said we are risk at screwing up the whole shabang by not drafting a KPD now?

It makes sense to given our lack of them when we have a shit load of mids we need to develop and adding a guy whose has just been dumped

 

[baldandbroke]

Disagree that Laird is an elite mid of the comp. He’s a great accumulator, but has little hurt factor. He’d be a foot soldier in a top end midfield. Elite in ours though.

Is that you Kane

Tell me who you are comparing him with so I can understand how Laird is not in the gang. Who are the Elite midfielders for each team going into 2023 ...

Adelaide Football Club - None?
Brisbane Lions - Neale
Carlton Football Club - Cripps / Walsh
Collingwood Football Club - Crisp?
Essendon Football Club - Merrett
Fremantle Football Club - Brayshaw
Geelong Football Club - Dangerfield
Gold Coast Suns - Miller
Greater Western Sydney Giants - Kelly?
Hawthorn Football Club - None?
Melbourne Football Club - Oliver / Petracca
North Melbourne Football Club - None?
Port Adelaide Football Club - Wines
Richmond Football Club - Bolton?
St Kilda Football Club - Steele
Sydney Swans - Parker? / Mills
West Coast Eagles - None?
Western Bulldogs - Bont

 

[baldandbroke]

You’ve got a habit of making stuff up, where has anyone said we are risk at screwing up the whole shabang by not drafting a KPD now?

It makes sense to given our lack of them when we have a s**t load of mids we need to develop and adding a guy whose has just been dumped

Ok so when you said:

A rebuild means you build the list. We’ve chosen not to build our key position defenders. Hard to see how you can not understand the flaw in what we are doing.

You weren't saying that the flaw in what we are doing is a bad thing - or going to be have a negative influence on our rebuild overall? You just wanted to point out it out for discussion sake. Nw.

If you don't think the decision on Brown will make a huge difference to our long term results then we are on the same page. Either that or you are worried about short-term results - like 2023 results? That's another discussion.

 

[1970crow]

Is that you Kane

Tell me who you are comparing him with so I can understand how Laird is not in the gang. Who are the Elite midfielders for each team going into 2023 ...

Adelaide Football Club - None?
Brisbane Lions - Neale
Carlton Football Club - Cripps / Walsh
Collingwood Football Club - Crisp?
Essendon Football Club - Merrett
Fremantle Football Club - Brayshaw
Geelong Football Club - Dangerfield
Gold Coast Suns - Miller
Greater Western Sydney Giants - Kelly?
Hawthorn Football Club - None?
Melbourne Football Club - Oliver / Petracca
North Melbourne Football Club - None?
Port Adelaide Football Club - Wines
Richmond Football Club - Bolton?
St Kilda Football Club - Steele
Sydney Swans - Parker? / Mills
West Coast Eagles - None?
Western Bulldogs - Bont

Laird would be 3rd or 4th cog in the best few midfield groups in the comp. He's not elite, but a reliable soldier that does a job. He wouldn't get those touches in good midfield units because he'd be sharing his time elsewhere, not totally in that stat rich area. This is a common mistake made when valuing the 4 players that we deploy to that role. Good midfields share the load, we're not and we don't.

 

[George CantStandYa]

Ok so when you said:



You weren't saying that the flaw in what we are doing is a bad thing - or going to be have a negative influence on our rebuild overall? You just wanted to point out it out for discussion sake. Nw.

If you don't think the decision on Brown will make a huge difference to our long term results then we are on the same page. Either that or you are worried about short-term results - like 2023 results? That's another discussion.

It’s exactly as I said. We are rebuilding and you rebuild all areas of the list. Smart list management would suggest we pick one up now rather than a reject mid.

I never said the whole rebuild will fail due to this one decision, just like a didn’t say earlier that I expected to get an elite mid now instead of Brown.

 

[maxlilly]

I was just about the only one on here from early on that saw Kyle Marshall as a possible later pick for us but let's not kid ourselves he's a good 2 or 3 years away from being truly AFL ready bodywise so he's really not an immediate answer to our KPD depth.


Edit*
I suspect Himmelberg might get a shot if we really get desperate through injury....what I don't quite understand is why he hasn't been tried down back in all the time he's been with us without ever locking in a forward role. History shows failed KPF's often get another crack at AFL as defenders and make a real good fist of it. i.e Liam Jones and Paddy MsCartin in recent times.

Yep, I understand that Marshall isn't the answer now but he might be in a few years time.
Himmelbergs been on our list for 5-6 years now and we still haven't tried him down back, what have we got to lose ? He aint getting a spot up forward any time soon