List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[go_the_dockers]

Schultz is C Grade despite comfortably kicking over a goal a game? That’s a long long way from all he offers too. You’re a tough judge.

For me need a winger, small forward, tall forward and an inside mid with some speed. There’s probably other things we need for depth but third and fourth rounders if used correctly should be able to get that done.

I think our forward line is too one dimensional, and we need more people who can compete in the air and when the ball hits the ground.

I am not sure you can have 3 predominant forwards (Schultz, Frederick and Switta) when neither are great 1v1, or 2v2.
Walters is the only one of our small or medium forwards, who is good on a lead, and 1v1 or 2v2, and when the ball hits the ground.

 

[Taylor]

I think our forward line is too one dimensional, and we need more people who can compete in the air and when the ball hits the ground.

I am not sure you can have 3 predominant forwards (Schultz, Frederick and Switta) when neither are great 1v1, or 2v2.
Walters is the only one of our small or medium forwards, who is good on a lead, and 1v1 or 2v2, and when the ball hits the ground.

I don't think a game plan that relies on the smalls taking contested marks will succeed and if that is the problem, it's the taller guys not taking marks that makes the difference.

Jackson and Darcy need to be taking a couple of marks each per quarter. Problem solved. Seriously. That's all it will take.

 

[go_the_dockers]

I don't think a game plan that relies on the smalls taking contested marks will succeed and if that is the problem, it's the taller guys not taking marks that makes the difference.

Jackson and Darcy need to be taking a couple of marks each per quarter. Problem solved. Seriously. That's all it will take.

If Darcy and Jackson take 8 contested marks in our forward 50 we are flying, but I don't see it happening.

The game plan does not have to depend on it, but it would help. Like most things, if you rely on scoring by only 2 or 3 players taking marks in the forward line I think you will struggle.

Having someone like Walters, or Ash Johnson, or de Goey, or Elliot who can compete in the air, and on the ground can only help.

How do we kick enough goals, if only the resting ruck (who are not reliable pack marks), and two key forwards can mark the ball in the 50. I think this leaves us both too slow, and lacking marking targets in the forward 50.

Maybe if Frederick and Switta play half forward, half wing, then it would open up another spot in the forward line for multi threat forward.

 

[Taylor]

If Darcy and Jackson take 8 contested marks in our forward 50 we are flying, but I don't see it happening.

The game plan does not have to depend on it, but it would help. Like most things, if you rely on scoring by only 2 or 3 players taking marks in the forward line I think you will struggle.

Having someone like Walters, or Ash Johnson, or de Goey, or Elliot who can compete in the air, and on the ground can only help.

How do we kick enough goals, if only the resting ruck (who are not reliable pack marks), and two key forwards can mark the ball in the 50. I think this leaves us both too slow, and lacking marking targets in the forward 50.

Maybe if Frederick and Switta play half forward, half wing, then it would open up another spot in the forward line for multi threat forward.

No, I didn't say eight contested marks in the forward fifty. I said eight marks. Our issue is we can't move the ball because our options dry up until we eventually turn it over.

If they took two marks total each per quarter, some can be inside forward fifty but that's not where I'm caring for it, the ball movement will turn 50m into 100m and our half backs, handball receive link up players can start the overlap run from behind - driving the ball in quickly to the likes of Frederick burning his opponent back towards goal.

It's really the entire problem. We need a mark between the arcs. We have two talls who will be around the ball drop, Jackson and Darcy. They need to take the grabs and the problem will disappear.

The ball will move fast and deep inside fifty and everyone will come out of it smiling.

It's also exactly the defensive move I would run against Freo. Make sure the long kick down the line doesn't end up in a Jackson or Darcy mark, zone the space and wait for Freo to kick it back to us.

 

[blue shark]

Buckley wanted Pies to go slow due to the forward line being under manned in
2021.
2022 and McRae wants to go fast due to the forward line being under manned.
We could actually play Corbett, Sturt, Erasmus, Emmett, with Amiss and Jackson,
Treacy.
Obviously not all the medium talls at once, but would we be worse off?

 

[Midnite65]

The key to the modern game is speed and ball movement, you don't need KPF's if you move it fast and kick to leading targets or one on one's (ala Magpies). Therefore priority off season is get two specialist wingmen that run all day and have physical prescence as no one currently at the club seems proficient to take on the role and we keep trying to turn people into wingers. I think a lot of players like Clarke, Chapman, Young, etc. could maybe do it but they dont seem to want to as it is too easy to hide on the half back line line these days in a team defense rather than be exposed to an opposition winger all day who can carve you up.

 

[go_the_dockers]

No, I didn't say eight contested marks in the forward fifty. I said eight marks. Our issue is we can't move the ball because our options dry up until we eventually turn it over.

If they took two marks total each per quarter, some can be inside forward fifty but that's not where I'm caring for it, the ball movement will turn 50m into 100m and our half backs, handball receive link up players can start the overlap run from behind - driving the ball in quickly to the likes of Frederick burning his opponent back towards goal.

It's really the entire problem. We need a mark between the arcs. We have two talls who will be around the ball drop, Jackson and Darcy. They need to take the grabs and the problem will disappear.

The ball will move fast and deep inside fifty and everyone will come out of it smiling.

It's also exactly the defensive move I would run against Freo. Make sure the long kick down the line doesn't end up in a Jackson or Darcy mark, zone the space and wait for Freo to kick it back to us.

Sorry, I could not see how contested marks between the arcs help.

Even with quick ball movement creating lots of 1v1's I don't see us marking the ball.

You simple can't rely on any of forwards to beat someone 1v1, except on a lead. Taberner and Walters are the only two that have a chance.

Too often we get out marked, and more marking ability in the forward line not only creates marks and shots at goal, but more opportunity to rove the ball for a goal.

 

[Hamann188]

The key to the modern game is speed and ball movement, you don't need KPF's if you move it fast and kick to leading targets or one on one's (ala Magpies). Therefore priority off season is get two specialist wingmen that run all day and have physical prescence as no one currently at the club seems proficient to take on the role and we keep trying to turn people into wingers. I think a lot of players like Clarke, Chapman, Young, etc. could maybe do it but they dont seem to want to as it is too easy to hide on the half back line line these days in a team defense rather than be exposed to an opposition winger all day who can carve you up.

Yeah it's a good point mate. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I kinda like it actually, I have been pushing for more speed outta the backline, never thought of the wings needing more. That's probably the breakdown in the mids to forwards connection.

Anyone in the WAFL who's hungry enough to give it a crack?

 

[wakojako]

We cannot keep Sean Darcy. It’s as simple as that. We cannot have $1.7 million tied up on two players that play the least important position on the field.
Other teams contend for flags with rookie picks and journeymen rucks.
The holes everywhere else in the list in the forward line especially are monstrous.
Darcy needs to be traded at the end of the year and replaced with a couple of quality AFL level forwards.
I love him but we brought LJ in tightly or wrongly and there is no room for 2 of them.

In no flipping world would I trade Darcy. I would rather trade Jackson to the Eagles and keep Darcy. The boys love him and he is a top 4 ruckman, a position Jackson is average in. This would also destroy our culture and set us back years. Besides, our salary cap isn't an issue. We will have one million dollars added to the salary cap when Fyfe's contract ends soon.

 

[Dockeroo]

Yeah it's a good point mate. I hadn't thought of it that way.

I kinda like it actually, I have been pushing for more speed outta the backline, never thought of the wings needing more. That's probably the breakdown in the mids to forwards connection.

Anyone in the WAFL who's hungry enough to give it a crack?

Wasn’t that why Wagner was brought in?

 

[Midnite65]

In no *ing world would I trade Darcy. I would rather trade Jackson to the Eagles and keep Darcy. The boys love him and he is a top 4 ruckman, a position Jackson is average in. This would also destroy our culture and set us back years. Besides, our salary cap isn't an issue. We will have one million dollars added to the salary cap when Fyfe's contract ends soon.

Anyone that banged on about Meek the last 2 years take a look at the Hawks second half today. Meek makes Darcy look like a Stawell Gift winner.

 

[Taylor]

Sorry, I could not see how contested marks between the arcs help.

Even with quick ball movement creating lots of 1v1's I don't see us marking the ball.

You simple can't rely on any of forwards to beat someone 1v1, except on a lead. Taberner and Walters are the only two that have a chance.

Too often we get out marked, and more marking ability in the forward line not only creates marks and shots at goal, but more opportunity to rove the ball for a goal.

They don't even need to be contested. Darcy and Jackson just need to secure the field position with a mark. Contested or not contested, don't care. Secure the ground with the mark.

Then our entire game can move 50m higher up and quick as the ball can move in a kick its 100m closer to goal, even more if our overlap run from behind can get the handball recieve.

The ball moves quick by foot. It doesn't come back when it's marked by one of ours.

This is the problem..

 

[Taylor]

It's why if we had a 2.5m tall roaming marking machine they would be the highest paid player in the league.

Kick it to Spyda and the ball moves 50m closer to goal each time.

 

[Lach72]

Fremantle 5 year trade history. What would have happened if we just traded players out.

2017

• Nathan Wilson (Greater Western Sydney) and pick #71 for picks #57 and 2018 2nd round[90]
• Brandon Matera (Gold Coast) for 2018 3rd round pick[91]

2018
In: Jesse Hogan (Melbourne), Rory Lobb (GWS), Reece Conca (Richmond), Travis Colyer (Essendon), picks 14, 31, 43, 65,
Out: Lachie Neale (Brisbane), pick 6, 2019 third-round pick, 2019 fourth-round pick.

2019
Aish, 69, future 3rd for future 2nd and future fourth.

2020
Nothing

2021
Traded to Fremantle

• Will Brodie (Gold Coast)
• Jordan Clark (Geelong) Pick 22

2022
Josh Corbett (Gold Coast)[143]
Luke Jackson (Melbourne)[144] 13 plus future 1st
Jaeger O'Meara (Hawthorn)[145]



The cheapest way to bring players in, is through the draft. Yet during a rebuild we constantly trade in players and over pay them for a short term gain, long term pain.

Also, if you bring in players make sure they are good and can make the difference. Lobb, Colyer, Conca, Matera are all shocking selections based on talent, output and Hogan due to other issues. Plus we were trying to rebuild.
I know a lot of these players were cheap, but they used up list spots which are so valuable and stopped us drafting players like Frederick, Junior Rioli, etc etc. Our talent identifications is shocking, it is like we just watch a few highlights and decide it is good decision to bring in the player, and then after the deal is done we let the coach know.

The other big criticism with our trading, is bring is players in positions we don't need.
Jackson is a ruck, Clark was a defender, O'Meara ais an inside mid. Once again, I find it hard to believe the coach had any input in the decision. or anyone with half a brain.


If we had left Hogan and Lobb, left Wilson and Matera alone then we could have walked in with 5,6, our 2nd, our 3rd, and pick in 2019.
The players ended up Rozee, King, Tom Berry and Lachie Schultz.

2019 we missed out on Harry Schoenberg, Trent Rivers
2021 we missed out on Ton Conway (Jesse Motlop went 3 picks later)
2022 we missed out on Matthew Jefferson


I think there are rare occasions, you can win during a rebuild by bringing in players but they need to be exceptional and you need to get them cheaply. Dawson for the crows is brilliant, but he filled a need and is an A grade player and leader.

We have the patience of my 8 year old son, saying I want it know and every time we trade in players we ruin our future. Until we can stop doing this, we are unlikely to win a flag.

Imagine walking out next weekend with King, Amiss in our forward line. Rozee starting half forward and swapping through the middle.
Trent Rivers, I am saying Jesse Motlop as we don't need a ruck, and maybe Harry Shoenberg. Our best 22 is already better, younger with more talent.

If we got to this point, then we can start filling holes. Now you can add Pickett to the forward line. Even the Jackson trade would look ok, as he would only be the 3rd forward and 2nd ruck, which would suit him ok.

can’t really leave a team of kids to get fustigated each week either.

hogan is the only one that grates me, and I agreed with it at the time.

and you’re quite glib about trading in Jordan Dawson, and latterly Rankine.
under your theory neither are at the Crows

 

[Dockeroo]

Cannot understand why forward talent wasn’t prioritised in the rebuild. If you arrive in the final year of a rebuild and you are down one key defender, or one wingman or a ruck or medium defender, even an extra mid, it’s pretty easy to source a cheap option that can fill a gap. People like Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

34

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

, Conor McKenna, John Noble

2

John Noble

Age

28

Ht

180cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.3

4star

K

9.2

4star

HB

7.1

4star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

186.1

3star

D

14.2

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

6.5

4star

M

3.2

3star

T

1.8

3star

MG

149.7

3star

D

18.8

5star

K

11.0

4star

HB

7.8

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

229.8

4star

all examples of very competent AFL players available in recent seasons that were got for peanuts in the middle to back half of the ground.
It’s the guys that put the ball between the big sticks that are hard to find. They the players at a premium that everyone jealously guards and ask for a kings ransom when they request a trade.
If you keep drafting forwards and high quality, big bodied inside mids, and then shuffle the big guys that aren’t good enough to kick goals at the level required to defence, you will have a decent team eventually.
Forwards, forwards, forwards.

 

[Lach72]

Cannot understand why forward talent wasn’t prioritised in the rebuild. If you arrive in the final year of a rebuild and you are down one key defender, or one wingman or a ruck or medium defender, even an extra mid, it’s pretty easy to source a cheap option that can fill a gap. People like Liam Jones, Conor McKenna, John Noble all examples of very competent AFL players available in recent seasons that were got for peanuts in the middle to back half of the ground.
It’s the guys that put the ball between the big sticks that are hard to find. They the players at a premium that everyone jealously guards and ask for a kings ransom when they request a trade.
If you keep drafting forwards and high quality, big bodied inside mids, and then shuffle the big guys that aren’t good enough to kick goals at the level required to defence, you will have a decent team eventually.
Forwards, forwards, forwards.

why I was desperate for Ra heel to fall to us.

but if you took the suggestion above and didn’t trade in players, Adelaide don’t have Dawson or Rankine.

 

[Bicco]

They don't even need to be contested. Darcy and Jackson just need to secure the field position with a mark. Contested or not contested, don't care. Secure the ground with the mark.

Then our entire game can move 50m higher up and quick as the ball can move in a kick its 100m closer to goal, even more if our overlap run from behind can get the handball recieve.

The ball moves quick by foot. It doesn't come back when it's marked by one of ours.

This is the problem..

I'm liking these posts because it's exactly what I was saying after the NM loss. Darcy and Jackson taking marks moves us either 50m closer to goal or they have a shot at goal. The loss in that game was very much on neither being able to take a mark anywhere.

 

[go_the_dockers]

can’t really leave a team of kids to get fustigated each week either.

hogan is the only one that grates me, and I agreed with it at the time.

and you’re quite glib about trading in Jordan Dawson, and latterly Rankine.
under your theory neither are at the Crows

Lobb was always an average player.
Matera was always shit.
Wilson was the wrong time, and did not protect anyone.
Same with Aish.

No one we got was as good and young like Dawson and Rankin

You make excepts In Some situations. E.g. Dawson for pick 16 but not often.

None of players we got were close to Dawson or Rankin. Hogan was the closest, except for the personal issues.

 

[Taylor]

Lobb was always an average player.
Matera was always s**t.
Wilson was the wrong time, and did not protect anyone.
Same with Aish.

No one we got was as good and young like Dawson and Rankin

You make excepts In Some situations. E.g. Dawson for pick 16 but not often.

None of players we got were close to Dawson or Rankin. Hogan was the closest, except for the personal issues.

Consider that it didn't work playing just the kids at GWS and they had almost all their picks before the third round, lost a huge chunk of them in the process and are back where they started again.

Ours would be pick #1, #19, #37, #55, #70, #71, #72, #73

For essentially ten years.

 

[Lach72]

Consider that it didn't work playing just the kids at GWS and they had almost all their picks before the third round, lost a huge chunk of them in the process and are back where they started again.

Pretty much.

you get consigned to a lot of beltings.

it seems that the issue with trading is it has to work…not that it’s wrong, which is frankly horse shit.

I think in hindsight the Neale/hogan one was the one to not do…largely because we had prime Fyfe and Mundy still in good nick…it was the one where loading up on high draft picks would’ve been the way to do it, taking king, Rozee.

****ing Hogan

 

[go_the_dockers]

Consider that it didn't work playing just the kids at GWS and they had almost all their picks before the third round, lost a huge chunk of them in the process and are back where they started again.

We still would have lots of old players.

I was not suggesting trading out all our old players

Fyfe, Pearce, Cox, Darcy, mundy, tabs etc would all still be there.

In what world was Matera, Colyer, Kersten ever going to help.

Plus Lobb was always a very limited player.

You were against most of the players at the time as well from memory, and against Hogan as well

 

[Taylor]

We still would have lots of old players.

I was not suggesting trading out all our old players

Fyfe, Pearce, Cox, Darcy, mundy, tabs etc would all still be there.

In what world was Matera, Colyer, Kersten ever going to help.

Plus Lobb was always a very limited player.

You were against most of the players at the time as well from memory, and against Hogan as well

I liked Matera because he has that ability to kick goals out of nowhere like Walters, he just didn't have the work rate in the off season until late in his time with us, came as essentially a free hit with #2 pick.

Hogan I didn't want, but the hole he filled is still vacant and the small forwards we play don't come into the game without a tall who can at least get hands to it. Lobb is a limited player, but structurally important for that hands to the ball reason.

The obvious answer to what world is helped by those players is told in the players who left Fremantle for opportunity elsewhere that have gone onto great careers after being kept out of the side by Matera, Colyer, Kersten etc... and then all those games they played would have been filled by a player of less capability than them.

Football is a game of contests, of dice roll after dice roll and the better players slightly weight their rolls to win more than they lose - but most win about a third, lose a third and a third is neutral. Young players aren't as good in the contest, delivering the workrate or footballing for the whole game.

One of them is out of position or jogs instead of runs to position and the ball is kicked to their opponent in space, straight to goal.

We also don't get Hamling, who we needed for long stretches. Without Lobb in two seasons we would have had no ruckman fit at all.

 

[Lach72]

Heh…now we see what the attitude Is if Pickett and Naughton become available. Two class players, youngish, areas of real need…yes or no?

 

[go_the_dockers]

I liked Matera because he has that ability to kick goals out of nowhere like Walters, he just didn't have the work rate in the off season until late in his time with us, came as essentially a free hit with #2 pick.

Hogan I didn't want, but the hole he filled is still vacant and the small forwards we play don't come into the game without a tall who can at least get hands to it. Lobb is a limited player, but structurally important for that hands to the ball reason.

The obvious answer to what world is helped by those players is told in the players who left Fremantle for opportunity elsewhere that have gone onto great careers after being kept out of the side by Matera, Colyer, Kersten etc... and then all those games they played would have been filled by a player of less capability than them.

Football is a game of contests, of dice roll after dice roll and the better players slightly weight their rolls to win more than they lose - but most win about a third, lose a third and a third is neutral. Young players aren't as good in the contest, delivering the workrate or footballing for the whole game.

One of them is out of position or jogs instead of runs to position and the ball is kicked to their opponent in space, straight to goal.

We also don't get Hamling, who we needed for long stretches. Without Lobb in two seasons we would have had no ruckman fit at all.

Short term gains, now it is long term pain.

And we are in worse spot.

 

[Lach72]

We still would have lots of old players.

I was not suggesting trading out all our old players

Fyfe, Pearce, Cox, Darcy, mundy, tabs etc would all still be there.

In what world was Matera, Colyer, Kersten ever going to help.

Plus Lobb was always a very limited player.

You were against most of the players at the time as well from memory, and against Hogan as well

you also left out theMcCarthy trade…why is that?

because we ended up with Logue, Darcy and Ryan out of it too?