List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[nurries]

Clay Hall was very good for Peel yesterday, hard to believe he’s only 17.

17? Wow big lad with some growing to come

 

[millsy]

Stop reading fn picks.
The system is there so weak teams get strong.
Constantly trading picks will eventually weaken your hand .
Draft players in line with your lader position and just build.
It's not rocket surgery

100%. Consistently trading future picks for current picks means we're taking unders long term with our picks.

 

[Rockmelon]

 

[Swiggy]

Clay Hall is another player, and right under our noses.
Played wing as a youngster. 189 cm.

Hopefully him or luker kentfield can get to freo first pick.

 

[Taylor]

Kicked 12 goals as of yesterday. Averaging 2 goals a game. That ll be 46 goals a season at this rate.
Astounding how the club handled him

The club didn't control the media following him around or his actions they reported on, which none of the media in NSW are interested in doing so nothing comes out.

Perth wasn't the place for him. He doesn't get the sort of media protection that would allow him to get back from an interstate game late, then with a new baby at home decide to go for a drive, crash the car into a tree, run away from the scene and then allegedly be assisted by police to get health checks.

 

[royale with cheese]

I’d question the decision to draft Logue more than the decision to let him go tbh. Realistically you can’t keep three good KPDs and not expect one of them to be offered more money than you’re willing to pay. It’s what the salary cap is designed to do.

100%. I took a while to warm to Logue and liked him in the end, but he simply was not the kind of player you have at the centrepiece of your rebuild. You either take a key forward or a midfielder. A rangy tall defender is nice to have but not essential to being a premiership side - and as guys like Tuohy and Stewart have shown at Geelong, they can be gotten much cheaper.

It smacked of a lack of seriousness about where we were at in 2016.

 

[greatgatsby]

Kicked 12 goals as of yesterday. Averaging 2 goals a game. That ll be 46 goals a season at this rate.
Astounding how the club handled him

Was OK yesterday but was mostly beaten on the day. In front of our midfield he would struggle to kick a goal a week. Also does no work defensively, Brisbane ran it out easily.

 

[Taylor]

100%. I took a while to warm to Logue and liked him in the end, but he simply was not the kind of player you have at the centrepiece of your rebuild. You either take a key forward or a midfielder. A rangy tall defender is nice to have but not essential to being a premiership side - and as guys like Tuohy and Stewart have shown at Geelong, they can be gotten much cheaper.

It smacked of a lack of seriousness about where we were at in 2016.

If Logue picked up the game like McGovern and grew just a touch he would be the best key defender in the game, he has the athletic profile of a beast. He is just a fraction behind play.

So I can see the appeal of drafting that player.

 

[BrunoV]

I think you need to look at the recruiting of Jackson in the context of the current list build, not as a deal in isolation. The start of the current list build is 2018/2019 because what follows is the end of Lyon/start of Longmuir and, for various reasons, the loss of Neale, Hill, Hogan, McCarthy, Cerra and even now Logue and Lobb as key pieces of what was going to be the rebuild that started under Lyon in 2016/2017.

Focusing solely on the draft, the context looks like:

2019: (R1-Jackson - R/KP/U - WA), R1-Young, R1-Serong, R1-Henry (Fwd - WA), Frederick (Fwd - WA)

2020: R1-Chapman (W/3TD - WA), O'Driscoll (W/Mid - WA), Walker (HB - WA)

2021: R1-Amis (KPF - WA), R1-Erasmus (Fwd/Mid - A), R1-Johnson (Mid/W - WA), Benning (WA - KP)

I've highlighted established players and promising locals have been recruited since 2019. The locals are important because when drafted at 18, they'll be Freo players as long as Freo wants them.

2019 to 2021 looks like 3 era defining drafts in a row. The academy has delivered 2 real points of diffence for loose change. To that you add Jackson. I argue Johnson was a first round pick in terms of getting access to talent over a period of time. Is there any serious suggestion Freo wouldn't have taken him 5 or 6 picks earlier?

If you include Jackson as a 2019 draftee, you'll have taken 8 first round picks between 2019 and 2023 (being the last first round you traded out of to take Jackson). That's 8 picks from 5 drafts. It's significant and more than enough for a rebuild. Sure, it could be 9 first round picks but then one of the players wouldnt be the generational talent. I don't know what the academy has got coming in the next few years, another Frederick, Benning or Walker wouldn't hurt, and essentially gets you back into the second round (in terms of raw talent that a club gets with the NGA).

If you were taking 4 first round picks from 5 years it would be a much more questionable.

It hasn't been a good start to the season, and the forwards will always suffer most Freo's system (which also needs updating). But there are games to get into all of the players above and Sam Sturt

1

Sam Sturt

Age

25

Ht

190cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.7

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

3.7

3star

M

2.3

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.7

2star

K

4.0

1star

HB

3.7

3star

M

2.3

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.7

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

3.7

3star

M

2.3

3star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.3

5star

(a 2018 first round pick who they've hardly seen to date but who looks promising). Chemistry between Sturt, Amis and Jackson will help make all 3 of those players more effective.

Anyone running Freo with sense would do the Jackson deal 100/100.

 

[apuchar]

I think you need to look at the recruiting of Jackson in the context of the current list build, not as a deal in isolation. The start of the current list build is 2018/2019 because what follows is the end of Lyon/start of Longmuir and, for various reasons, the loss of Neale, Hill, Hogan, McCarthy, Cerra and even now Logue and Lobb as key pieces of what was going to be the rebuild that started under Lyon in 2016/2017.

Focusing solely on the draft, the context looks like:

2019: (R1-Jackson - R/KP/U - WA), R1-Young, R1-Serong, R1-Henry (Fwd - WA), Frederick (Fwd - WA)

2020: R1-Chapman (W/3TD - WA), O'Driscoll (W/Mid - WA), Walker (HB - WA)

2021: R1-Amis (KPF - WA), R1-Erasmus (Fwd/Mid - A), R1-Johnson (Mid/W - WA), Benning (WA - KP)

I've highlighted established players and promising locals have been recruited since 2019. The locals are important because when drafted at 18, they'll be Freo players as long as Freo wants them.

2019 to 2021 looks like 3 era defining drafts in a row. The academy has delivered 2 real points of diffence for loose change. To that you add Jackson. I argue Johnson was a first round pick in terms of getting access to talent over a period of time. Is there any serious suggestion Freo wouldn't have taken him 5 or 6 picks earlier?

If you include Jackson as a 2019 draftee, you'll have taken 8 first round picks between 2019 and 2023 (being the last first round you traded out of to take Jackson). That's 8 picks from 5 drafts. It's significant and more than enough for a rebuild. Sure, it could be 9 first round picks but then one of the players wouldnt be the generational talent. I don't know what the academy has got coming in the next few years, another Frederick, Benning or Walker wouldn't hurt, and essentially gets you back into the second round (in terms of raw talent that a club gets with the NGA).

If you were taking 4 first round picks from 5 years it would be a much more questionable.

It hasn't been a good start to the season, and the forwards will always suffer most Freo's system (which also needs updating). But there are games to get into all of the players above and Sam Sturt (a 2018 first round pick who they've hardly seen to date but who looks promising). Chemistry between Sturt, Amis and Jackson will help make all 3 of those players more effective.

Anyone running Freo with sense would do the Jackson deal 100/100.

Agree. It was always about now or long-term list building. After last year most people were probably looking at now only. I just hope we don't waste this year flogging a dead horse (sticking with the same limited players) and actually develop our list and put games into our future players.
It has left Justin very vulnerable though which I find annoying.

 

[Joao]

I think you need to look at the recruiting of Jackson in the context of the current list build, not as a deal in isolation. The start of the current list build is 2018/2019 because what follows is the end of Lyon/start of Longmuir and, for various reasons, the loss of Neale, Hill, Hogan, McCarthy, Cerra and even now Logue and Lobb as key pieces of what was going to be the rebuild that started under Lyon in 2016/2017.

Focusing solely on the draft, the context looks like:

2019: (R1-Jackson - R/KP/U - WA), R1-Young, R1-Serong, R1-Henry (Fwd - WA), Frederick (Fwd - WA)

2020: R1-Chapman (W/3TD - WA), O'Driscoll (W/Mid - WA), Walker (HB - WA)

2021: R1-Amis (KPF - WA), R1-Erasmus (Fwd/Mid - A), R1-Johnson (Mid/W - WA), Benning (WA - KP)

I've highlighted established players and promising locals have been recruited since 2019. The locals are important because when drafted at 18, they'll be Freo players as long as Freo wants them.

2019 to 2021 looks like 3 era defining drafts in a row. The academy has delivered 2 real points of diffence for loose change. To that you add Jackson. I argue Johnson was a first round pick in terms of getting access to talent over a period of time. Is there any serious suggestion Freo wouldn't have taken him 5 or 6 picks earlier?

If you include Jackson as a 2019 draftee, you'll have taken 8 first round picks between 2019 and 2023 (being the last first round you traded out of to take Jackson). That's 8 picks from 5 drafts. It's significant and more than enough for a rebuild. Sure, it could be 9 first round picks but then one of the players wouldnt be the generational talent. I don't know what the academy has got coming in the next few years, another Frederick, Benning or Walker wouldn't hurt, and essentially gets you back into the second round (in terms of raw talent that a club gets with the NGA).

If you were taking 4 first round picks from 5 years it would be a much more questionable.

It hasn't been a good start to the season, and the forwards will always suffer most Freo's system (which also needs updating). But there are games to get into all of the players above and Sam Sturt (a 2018 first round pick who they've hardly seen to date but who looks promising). Chemistry between Sturt, Amis and Jackson will help make all 3 of those players more effective.

Anyone running Freo with sense would do the Jackson deal 100/100.

The current list build includes an absolute dearth of quality forwards and we just blew a top 6 pick, pick 13 and pick 20-23 on another ruckman when we already had an AA squad ruckman.

Nobody being critical here of our list management is doing it in isolation. To the contrary, we have solid evidence of literal decades of incompetence and blindingly obvious hole/s in the list that we just won't address.

Also Benning is currently WAFL reserves standard so any more of those don't help at all.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Whatever happens with Darcy this year or next is going to determine the final result of last years trade period. I think, as it stands, the only move that was completely brain dead was letting Acres go, even if he's a very limited player

Outs
Logue: I'd love to have him back right now but quite frankly, the club was right not to extend him early last season give he was borderline best 22 and we had Cox and Pearce who wasnt in the worst form of his life. **** knows why Pearce is playing like he his this year but the club couldnt have prdecited that. Our movement out of the backline is bad at the movement, short of dropping our captain for him, it'd be worse with Logue there. We obviously were never matching what North were offering.

Lobb: Got appropriate value, will go down as a lose/lose trade IMO.

Tucker: Didnt have a spot here

Acres: The biggest mistake IMO, I appreciate not overpaying roleplayers and that he's very limited but we are really really missing his marking on the wing and defensive running. None of our wings this year are close to as good as he is and having him on the wing for 3 more years would have been fine give the reported salary. Dumb and arrogant move

Ins
JOM: If there was an option, I would have much preferred Mundy. He's sort of doing his role and I can understand why they brought him in given the size of the midfield and lack of experience but he is JUST contributing. The lack of speed is killer. Maybe it wont look as bad over the next few years but at the moment I think the reservations most had on here when we heard of it happening are valid.

Corbett: Too early to tell

Jackson: I'll soften my stance further from my lengthy discussion with Joao. Bringing in Jackson makes most sense in two situations
1) If the club knew Darcy was leaving some time in the next couple of years
2) The club thought they could turn him into a half mid / half ruck type player

I dont think going so hard after Jackson to have him play as a fwd/ruck for his whole career makes sense. I think it makes even less sense to target a development ruck in the draft and one who is ready to go in Reidy. We also seem to be trying to develop Treacy into a fwd/ruck. Long story short, a lot of things make a lot more sense if we knew Darcy was leaving after this contract. I hate the price paid regardless and it was weak trading. We should have at least one more 2nd round pick this year, or, if they were as campaignery as Adelaide, possibly 2 more.

 

[Joao]

Whatever happens with Darcy this year or next is going to determine the final result of last years trade period. I think, as it stands, the only move that was completely brain dead was letting Acres go, even if he's a very limited trade

Outs
Logue: I'd love to have him back right now but quite frankly, the club was right not to extend him early last season give he was borderline best 22 and we had Cox and Pearce who wasnt in the worst form of his life. * knows why Pearce is playing like he his this year but the club couldnt have prdecited that. Our movement out of the backline is bad at the movement, short of dropping our captain for him, it'd be worse with Logue there. We obviously were never matching what North were offering.

Lobb: Got appropriate value, will go down as a lose/lose trade IMO.

Tucker: Didnt have a spot here

Acres: The biggest mistake IMO, I appreciate not overpaying roleplayers and that he's very limited but we are really really missing his marking on the wing and defensive running. None of our wings this year are close to as good as he is and having him on the wing for 3 more years would have been fine give the reported salary. Dumb and arrogant move

Ins
JOM: If there was an option, I would have much preferred Mundy. He's sort of doing his role and I can understand why they brought him in given the size of the midfield and lack of experience but he is JUST contributing. The lack of speed is killer. Maybe it wont look as bad over the next few years but at the moment I think the reservations most had on here when we heard of it happening are valid.

Corbett: Too early to tell

Jackson: I'll soften my stance further from my lengthy discussion with Joao. Bringing in Jackson makes most sense in two situations
1) If the club knew Darcy was leaving some time in the next couple of years
2) The club thought they could turn him into a half mid / half ruck type player

I dont think going so hard after Jackson to have him play as a fwd/ruck for his whole career makes sense. I think it makes even less sense to target a development ruck in the draft and one who is ready to go in Reidy. We also seem to be trying to develop Treacy into a fwd/ruck. Long story short, a lot of things make a lot more sense if we knew Darcy was leaving after this contract. I hate the price paid regardless and it was weak trading. We should have at least one more 2nd round pick this year, or, if they were as campaignery as Adelaide, possibly 2 more.

Agree with this.

Darcy leaving would surprise me, but from a list management position it makes the most sense. I actually hope this is the case, not because I want Darcy gone but because otherwise I think we have butchered it and I want to believe we do have some idea what we are doing.

 

[BrunoV]

The current list build includes an absolute dearth of quality forwards and we just blew a top 6 pick, pick 13 and pick 20-23 on another ruckman when we already had an AA squad ruckman.

Nobody being critical here of our list management is doing it in isolation. To the contrary, we have solid evidence of literal decades of incompetence and blindingly obvious hole/s in the list that we just won't address.

Also Benning is currently WAFL reserves standard so any more of those don't help at all.

You're judging the dearth of quality forwards now based on Amis and Erasums being a second year players and Sturt having hardly gotten on the park.

Jackson was never going to kick 50 goals this year. He's been drafted because he has the ability to grow into that player.

At a minimum, you don't need to be an amazing footballer to kick goals if you have size and ridiculous athletic ability. Just look at McKay. Inferior versions of this look like Peter Wright and Ben Brown. I don't think these sorts of limitations apply to Jackson.

It would help if Fyfe and Taberner could play 10 games in a forward line together. Neither has to be a star but would at least provide the presence to target to help bring things together.

 

[mightymouse75]

Whatever happens with Darcy this year or next is going to determine the final result of last years trade period. I think, as it stands, the only move that was completely brain dead was letting Acres go, even if he's a very limited trade

Outs
Logue: I'd love to have him back right now but quite frankly, the club was right not to extend him early last season give he was borderline best 22 and we had Cox and Pearce who wasnt in the worst form of his life. * knows why Pearce is playing like he his this year but the club couldnt have prdecited that. Our movement out of the backline is bad at the movement, short of dropping our captain for him, it'd be worse with Logue there. We obviously were never matching what North were offering.

Lobb: Got appropriate value, will go down as a lose/lose trade IMO.

Tucker: Didnt have a spot here

Acres: The biggest mistake IMO, I appreciate not overpaying roleplayers and that he's very limited but we are really really missing his marking on the wing and defensive running. None of our wings this year are close to as good as he is and having him on the wing for 3 more years would have been fine give the reported salary. Dumb and arrogant move

Ins
JOM: If there was an option, I would have much preferred Mundy. He's sort of doing his role and I can understand why they brought him in given the size of the midfield and lack of experience but he is JUST contributing. The lack of speed is killer. Maybe it wont look as bad over the next few years but at the moment I think the reservations most had on here when we heard of it happening are valid.

Corbett: Too early to tell

Jackson: I'll soften my stance further from my lengthy discussion with Joao. Bringing in Jackson makes most sense in two situations
1) If the club knew Darcy was leaving some time in the next couple of years
2) The club thought they could turn him into a half mid / half ruck type player

I dont think going so hard after Jackson to have him play as a fwd/ruck for his whole career makes sense. I think it makes even less sense to target a development ruck in the draft and one who is ready to go in Reidy. We also seem to be trying to develop Treacy into a fwd/ruck. Long story short, a lot of things make a lot more sense if we knew Darcy was leaving after this contract. I hate the price paid regardless and it was weak trading. We should have at least one more 2nd round pick this year, or, if they were as campaignery as Adelaide, possibly 2 more.

You can beat Geelong would have paid f all for Jackson and still got their man.
Very weak trading from the club.

 

[blue shark]

Lyon credits their start to the season to the half forwards. States it’s the hardest position to fill, with how the game has changed.
Saints half forwards are running machines back and forward, and not one way looking for the cheapie out the back.
Helping the mids, backs with their work ethic on show. Hill is now back to his best.
Freo just look lazy, soft, with everyone waiting for something to happen.

 

[Joao]

You're judging the dearth of quality forwards now based on Amis and Erasums being a second year players and Sturt having hardly gotten on the park.

Jackson was never going to kick 50 goals this year. He's been drafted because he has the ability to grow into that player.

At a minimum, you don't need to be an amazing footballer to kick goals if you have size and ridiculous athletic ability. Just look at McKay. Inferior versions of this look like Peter Wright and Ben Brown. I don't think these sorts of limitations apply to Jackson.

It would help if Fyfe and Taberner could play 10 games in a forward line together. Neither has to be a star but would at least provide the presence to target to help bring things together.

You see, when you say stuff like this combined with Benning, it makes me think you don't actually know as much as you think you do about our list. Erasmus isn't a forward. He plays exclusively inside for Peel. Sturt got on the park just fine last year but wouldn't tackle and hence didn't get a game.

Maybe Jackson turns out to be a gun forward - who knows? I tell you what you don't do, you don't trade for and pay for him as if he is already that player (the gun forward) when he very clearly isn't.

I'm sure you have good intentions but its condescending as **** to roll in with 'wisdom' when you haven't even spent the time to understand the list properly.

 

[apuchar]

Lyon credits their start to the season to the half forwards. States it’s the hardest position to fill, with how the game has changed.
Saints half forwards are running machines back and forward, and not one way looking for the cheapie out the back.
Helping the mids, backs with their work ethic on show. Hill is now back to his best.
Freo just look lazy, soft, with everyone waiting for something to happen.

Have almost always beaten us because they are tough and hard-running. Shows up all our midfield and hff weaknesses.

 

[Hazelsnuts]

You see, when you say stuff like this combined with Benning, it makes me think you don't actually know as much as you think you do about our list. Erasmus isn't a forward. He plays exclusively inside for Peel. Sturt got on the park just fine last year but wouldn't tackle and hence didn't get a game.

Maybe Jackson turns out to be a gun forward - who knows? I tell you what you don't do, you don't trade for and pay for him as if he is already that player (the gun forward) when he very clearly isn't.

I'm sure you have good intentions but its condescending as **** to roll in with 'wisdom' when you haven't even spent the time to understand the list properly.

Erasmus was actually a mid-forward at Subiaco when drafted.
Benning for me has been a massive disappointment- and yes he was a ruck pre draft that floated forward to provide a mismatch cut out and space for JVR especially.
Doesn’t have the tank yet to play that role, I was hoping for a Paddy Ryder type, but time may be against him….
Rookie list at best next year if something doesn’t change dramatically.

 

[Joao]

Erasmus was actually a mid-forward at Subiaco when drafted.
Benning for me has been a massive disappointment- and yes he was a ruck pre draft that floated forward to provide a mismatch cut out and space for JVR especially.
Doesn’t have the tank yet to play that role, I was hoping for a Paddy Ryder type, but time may be against him….
Rookie list at best next year if something doesn’t change dramatically.

Serong I am fairly sure was also a more than handy forward as an underager. Neither him or Ras have spent much time there since being drafted so I think both are irrelevant when talking about our forward stocks. At least under the current coach.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

With regard to moving our future 1st into this year, the only applicable situation I can think of is Melbourne in 2019. Finished 2nd last and needed 26, 50 and a future 1st to get pick 8. If that's return on a future 1st of a shit team, I'll pass on anyone thinking that way thanks Bell

 

[wakojako]

If it is confirmed we go bottom six towards the end of the season, do we swallow our pride and tank? We could get revenge on the Demons with the threat of PSD and get Pickett for cheap. In the end we would cough up a top 6 pick though so idk if it's worth it.

 

[BrunoV]

You see, when you say stuff like this combined with Benning, it makes me think you don't actually know as much as you think you do about our list. Erasmus isn't a forward. He plays exclusively inside for Peel. Sturt got on the park just fine last year but wouldn't tackle and hence didn't get a game.

Maybe Jackson turns out to be a gun forward - who knows? I tell you what you don't do, you don't trade for and pay for him as if he is already that player (the gun forward) when he very clearly isn't.

I'm sure you have good intentions but its condescending as **** to roll in with 'wisdom' when you haven't even spent the time to understand the list properly.

Mate, I'm sorry. Here I was thinking that a tall forward line consisting of an 8 game KPF, a 6 game third tall, with the experience coming from the 58 game KPF, still very much learning the craft, was going to create a problem.

As for Erasmus, my reading of the draft profiling was that he was more a forward. I am surprised that he's not playing forward at Peel because his attributes seem well suited to what is needed forward in the AFL team (and it will take him, like anyone else, years to develop into the clearance busting mid he could be).

As for Benning, I only mentioned him as an example of the talent you're getting out of the NGA. That point stands because all you can do is draft the talent, what then happens tends to take on a life of its own. It is a shame he is struggling because I understood him to be another Clem Michael / Paddy Ryder.

But I now understand why you're being so unpleasant about this. I was under the mistaken belief Walker (who we bid on) and Frederick were NGA players (note that I have 'WA' next to Frederick in my original post). When my post mentioned 2 points of difference from the NGA I was referring to Walker and Frederick, definitely not Benning.

As for Jackson you're always going to overpay if you want him before free agency. Paying the money now actually works out well because there should be space for a heavily front ended deal. There are extremely rare circumstances in which I think these monster trade deals can really be justified. I've set out why I think Jackson is a no-brainer, it's the quality of the 3 proceeding drafts. Jeremy Cameron was another because all of the other pieces were in place for a shot at a flag.

 

[Taylor]

If it is confirmed we go bottom six towards the end of the season, do we swallow our pride and tank? We could get revenge on the Demons with the threat of PSD and get Pickett for cheap. In the end we would cough up a top 6 pick though so idk if it's worth it.

It would be difficult to get under West Coast (easy gentlemen), but the PSD is the reason Adelaide could get Dawson for such an average pick.

Something like trading our future first for the future first of a higher performing club plus their second this year, then swapping that future first for Pickett.

 

[wakojako]

It would be difficult to get under West Coast (easy gentlemen), but the PSD is the reason Adelaide could get Dawson for such an average pick.

Something like trading our future first for the future first of a higher performing club plus their second this year, then swapping that future first for Pickett.

We wouldn't need to worry about West Coast though? They need their picks for the draft and wouldn't want to trade any out for English next season. If we have the PSD as a threat surely we might be able to offer them something less than future first as a big FU for screwing us over.