Review 2023 National Draft Review Thread II [McKercher, Z.Duursma, Goad, W.Dawson, Hardeman, Maley]

[Psicosis]

Fair bit of pick 1 chat in this. All three think it’ll be traded.

 

[My Left Foote]

If the AFL wants a draft night trade it won't happen. But from a WCE fans point of view if they're going to trade it then it's probably best for them to do it early so the shock isn't there come draft night.

As much as the AFL would love the drama of a trade for pick 1 on draft night I think they'd relish the media coverage of a trade before the Nov 10 deadline, it would given them 10 days of post trade debate & analysis.

 

[chubbspeterson]

As much as the AFL would love the drama of a trade for pick 1 on draft night I think they'd relish the media coverage of a trade before the Nov 10 deadline, it would given them 10 days of post trade debate & analysis.

Yep as I said I think it's better if WCE rips the band-aid off if they're gonna trade it. I'd say WCE fans would be broken by a draft night trade.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

Same.
Is he too much of a reach at pick 18?

Probably, we could always live trade down the order with that pick and look to take him with a pick in the mid 20's. But if we miss Edwards and really like Goad's profile then I'd be fine if we pulled the trigger with 18. There really isn't much between those players in that 18-40 range.

I'd probably take Shoenmaker over Murphy but we're gonna need another 200cm athletic defender (only really got Nyuon) coming through to play on those athletic key forwards with big wingspans. I like the look of Will Dawson but he's pretty raw like Murphy. I reckon Roughy at Saints will be all over him at pick 21 or 40 perhaps being a hometown kid. Any idea what pick Dawson will be?

Murphy will be more of a interceptor I reckon, Schoey more of a playmaker with his kicking. Schoey at 194cm probably won't have the capacity to play on the real tall athletic key forwards whereas Murphy will.

Dawson more likely to be taken from pick 30 onwards. There is a chance he could be even available in the rookie draft. In which case I hope we are all over him. The thing that separates him from the above two is his competitiveness and physicality, for a tall lad he loves the rough stuff. Still very raw though.

 

[kool kangas]

If the AFL wants a draft night trade it won't happen. But from a WCE fans point of view if they're going to trade it then it's probably best for them to do it early so the shock isn't there come draft night.

Nothing more embarrassing to the Afl than the club with the first pick asking for more time...

 

[kool kangas]

Yep as I said I think it's better if WCE rips the band-aid off if they're gonna trade it. I'd say WCE fans would be broken by a draft night trade.

If West Coast do trade out pick 1 to us for something other than picks 2&3 especially if it's something like 2,17and18 l will be straight over to their forum to thank them for it.

 

[chubbspeterson]

Murphy will be more of a interceptor I reckon, Schoey more of a playmaker with his kicking. Schoey at 194cm probably won't have the capacity to play on the real tall athletic key forwards whereas Murphy will.

Dawson more likely to be taken from pick 30 onwards. There is a chance he could be even available in the rookie draft. In which case I hope we are all over him. The thing that separates him from the above two is his competitiveness and physicality, for a tall lad he loves the rough stuff. Still very raw though.

Ok thanks so Saints might take Dawson with 40 then before our pick 57 or whatever it will be lol. Yeah that's the vibe I got with Murphy, bit of a taller Birchall interceptor. Be interesting to see what we do if we take Curtin early.

 

[Tas]

Probably, we could always live trade down the order with that pick and look to take him with a pick in the mid 20's. But if we miss Edwards and really like Goad's profile then I'd be fine if we pulled the trigger with 18. There really isn't much between those players in that 18-40 range.




Murphy will be more of a interceptor I reckon, Schoey more of a playmaker with his kicking. Schoey at 194cm probably won't have the capacity to play on the real tall athletic key forwards whereas Murphy will.

Dawson more likely to be taken from pick 30 onwards. There is a chance he could be even available in the rookie draft. In which case I hope we are all over him. The thing that separates him from the above two is his competitiveness and physicality, for a tall lad he loves the rough stuff. Still very raw though.

If we move Comben back, and he doesn't suck, we probably don't need another gorilla defender in the short-term. We should have a couple of KPDs in development though.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

If we move Comben back, and he doesn't suck, we probably don't need another gorilla defender in the short-term. We should have a couple of KPDs in development though.

In an ideal world, I'd be taking 1 x KD & 1 x KF in the national draft then 1 x KD and 1 x KF in the rookie draft as well.

We've neglected developing talls for far too long.

 

[Sphynx]

Probably, we could always live trade down the order with that pick and look to take him with a pick in the mid 20's. But if we miss Edwards and really like Goad's profile then I'd be fine if we pulled the trigger with 18. There really isn't much between those players in that 18-40 range.




Murphy will be more of a interceptor I reckon, Schoey more of a playmaker with his kicking. Schoey at 194cm probably won't have the capacity to play on the real tall athletic key forwards whereas Murphy will.

Dawson more likely to be taken from pick 30 onwards. There is a chance he could be even available in the rookie draft. In which case I hope we are all over him. The thing that separates him from the above two is his competitiveness and physicality, for a tall lad he loves the rough stuff. Still very raw though.

If Schoenmaker can develop his intercept contested marking he can be an absolute top liner..... and I mean top liner.

We are all a bit conditioned to the traditional 200cm dour FB/CHB that can do a bit of everything (Weitering being the classic prototype of that).

Sicily is arguably the most damaging defensive player in the game. Not only does he get it 26 times a game, he takes 10 marks with 1.8 of those being contested marks. A similar number of contested marks to both Darcy Moore and Sam Taylor and he's 189cm. Sicily is known around the league as one of the physically strongest players in the league, especially through his core and legs, which makes him almost unmovable 1-on-1, even for his height.

Now Schoenmaker is probably one of the most damaging, penetrating kicks in recent drafts. Similar to Shannon Hurn when he came through. He's also shown a Sicily like ability and footy IQ to rack up huge numbers across half back in a similarly fairly loose role.

He pretty much ticks every box other than high intercept mark numbers. These almost never really develop and reveal themselves until defenders are at AFL level anyway.

I think he's got the biggest distance between his ceiling and floor as a player in this draft. IMO he has one of the highest ceiling in it. He would be my pick outside of the first dozen who could potentially be a left field selection as the best player in this draft.

He could be Sicily with even better kicking skills, or he could be the second coming of Jack Scrimshaw.

He's certainly not a one on one defender though. Which is fine, as you don't need to necessarily be a dour defender to be an ultra damaging one. He's the guy we need to take "the McDonald" loose intercepting role imo. Except on this occasion you have a guy with a penetrating 60m kick, not someone who just thinks he's got one.

I wouldn't be selecting him as our KPD selection though. It would almost be in lieu of someone like Leake as a medium defender. It would be a hard decsion, as Schoenmaker has some truly elite offensive attributes coming off of half back.


I'd be taking him in conjunction with a real KPD prospect, like someone like Dawson.

In my eyes we should be taking a Medium Defender, KPD and a Ruck with those 3 x picks in the late teens. Schoenmaker because of his playing style fits into the medium defender category.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

If Schoenmaker can develop his intercept contested marking he can be an absolute top liner..... and I mean top liner.

We are all a bit conditioned to the traditional 200cm dour FB/CHB that can do a bit of everything (Weitering being the classic prototype of that).

Sicily is arguably the most damaging defensive player in the game. Not only does he get it 26 times a game, he takes 10 marks with 1.8 of those being contested marks. A similar number of contested marks to both Darcy Moore and Sam Taylor and he's 189cm. Sicily is known around the league as one of the physically strongest players in the league, especially through his core and legs, which makes him almost unmovable 1-on-1, even for his height.

Now Schoenmaker is probably one of the most damaging, penetrating kicks in recent drafts. Similar to Shannon Hurn when he came through. He's also shown a Sicily like ability and footy IQ to rack up huge numbers across half back in a similarly fairly loose role.

He pretty much ticks every box other than high intercept mark numbers. These almost never really develop and reveal themselves until defenders are at AFL level anyway.

I think he's got the biggest distance between his ceiling and floor as a player in this draft. IMO he has one of the highest ceiling in it. He would be my pick outside of the first dozen who could potentially be a left field selection as the best player in this draft.

He could be Sicily with even better kicking skills, or he could be the second coming of Jack Scrimshaw.

He's certainly not a one on one defender though. Which is fine, as you don't need to necessarily be a dour defender to be an ultra damaging one. He's the guy we need to take "the McDonald" loose intercepting role imo. Except on this occasion you have a guy with a penetrating 60m kick, not someone who just thinks he's got one.

Totally agree with that assessment. Especially with his ceiling. When I have seen him take marks, he is actually quite strong overhead, so I don't think it would take that much development to improve that side of his game.

I think in an ideal world, you'd have an 198+cm key defender in the Andrews/Moore mould, then more of a lockdown KD in the Logue/Corr mould and then you'd have Schoey playing as a third tall type like Jordan Ridley, who doesn't have to play that tight to his man and has the freedom to get up the ground and create. That's why I wouldn't be against drafting both Ollie Murphy and Schoenmaker if the cards fall that way.

 

[Sphynx]

Totally agree with that assessment. Especially with his ceiling. When I have seen him take marks, he is actually quite strong overhead, so I don't think it would take that much development to improve that side of his game.

I think in an ideal world, you'd have an 198+cm key defender in the Andrews/Moore mould, then more of a lockdown KD in the Logue/Corr mould and then you'd have Schoey playing as a third tall type like Jordan Ridley, who doesn't have to play that tight to his man and has the freedom to get up the ground and create.

This is definitely his position.

It's a Ridley/Sicily/Lever +1 loose defender role.

You get the ball in his hands often, he kicks out etc.

I'd be absolutely thrilled with Schoenmaker/Dawson (or Murphy)/Edwards or (Goad/Green) in those 3 selections. There's no lockdown medium defender in there, but we hit 3 other needs imo.


I just get the feeling Rawlings doesn't think the ruck or KPD is a massive priority at the draft table though from his recent interviews. Which will be a major mistake.

There's 3 exceptional young ruckman, with elite athletic profiles all available in a spot we have 3 picks in it.

In other years, you might get 1 of these types a draft, if that. Very rarely do they have the 206+ cm size as well as the verticals or pace or endurance combos these 3 have.

Honestly, all 3 are really undervalued. 15 years ago, all of Edwards, Green and Goad probably go in and around the top 10 almost.

Edwards has a jumping center bounce vertical reach similar to Nic Natanui and he's possibly going to go in the 20's. Insane.

 

[Tas]

If Schoenmaker can develop his intercept contested marking he can be an absolute top liner..... and I mean top liner.

We are all a bit conditioned to the traditional 200cm dour FB/CHB that can do a bit of everything (Weitering being the classic prototype of that).

Sicily is arguably the most damaging defensive player in the game. Not only does he get it 26 times a game, he takes 10 marks with 1.8 of those being contested marks. A similar number of contested marks to both Darcy Moore and Sam Taylor and he's 189cm. Sicily is known around the league as one of the physically strongest players in the league, especially through his core and legs, which makes him almost unmovable 1-on-1, even for his height.

Now Schoenmaker is probably one of the most damaging, penetrating kicks in recent drafts. Similar to Shannon Hurn when he came through. He's also shown a Sicily like ability and footy IQ to rack up huge numbers across half back in a similarly fairly loose role.

He pretty much ticks every box other than high intercept mark numbers. These almost never really develop and reveal themselves until defenders are at AFL level anyway.

I think he's got the biggest distance between his ceiling and floor as a player in this draft. IMO he has one of the highest ceiling in it. He would be my pick outside of the first dozen who could potentially be a left field selection as the best player in this draft.

He could be Sicily with even better kicking skills, or he could be the second coming of Jack Scrimshaw.

He's certainly not a one on one defender though. Which is fine, as you don't need to necessarily be a dour defender to be an ultra damaging one. He's the guy we need to take "the McDonald" loose intercepting role imo. Except on this occasion you have a guy with a penetrating 60m kick, not someone who just thinks he's got one.

Clarkson's recruitment principles when he was at Hawthorn was take players who had traits you can't teach then focus development on things you can teach. You can't really teach players to kick like Shoenmaker, you can probably work on the things he isn't great at.

I am not sure who the focus would be.

Prior to Clarkson the kind of players we pick has been the crux of the problem, we pick a lot of players that didn't have elite attributes like kicking ability or speed or anything memorable so they lacked impact even when we brought them in. You need something that will make you stand out.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

This is definitely his position.

It's a Ridley/Sicily/Lever +1 loose defender role.

You get the ball in his hands often, he kicks out etc.

I'd be absolutely thrilled with Schoenmaker/Dawson (or Murphy)/Edwards or (Goad/Green) in those 3 selections. There's no lockdown medium defender in there, but we hit 3 other needs imo.


I just get the feeling Rawlings doesn't think the ruck or KPD is a massive priority at the draft table though. Which will be a major mistake.

If we disregard talls again in the ND, I'm going to have serious question marks on Rawlings ability to build the list. Been neglected for so long. IMO, If we don't go tall at some stage in these drafts, then it's going to eventually hinder our ability to go best available in future drafts.

They may have plans for Comben to go back, but I think that's just robbing Peter to pay Paul, especially when we don't have any developing tall forwards either.

If we did go the way of going tall with the picks in the teens, I think there will be a half back available later in the draft or early in the rookie draft. Someone like Alex Holt or Bodie Ryan from SA or Cam Nyko is likely to be available then. Alternatively, you could look at a mature ager like Sam Clohesy or a DFA like Riley Bonner if we need some coverage in that area. Easier to find half back's than it is to find key position players.

 

[pupstar]

This is definitely his position.

It's a Ridley/Sicily/Lever +1 loose defender role.

You get the ball in his hands often, he kicks out etc.

I'd be absolutely thrilled with Schoenmaker/Dawson (or Murphy)/Edwards or (Goad/Green) in those 3 selections. There's no lockdown medium defender in there, but we hit 3 other needs imo.


I just get the feeling Rawlings doesn't think the ruck or KPD is a massive priority at the draft table though from his recent interviews. Which will be a major mistake.

There's 3 exceptional young ruckman, with elite athletic profiles all available in a spot we have 3 picks in it.

In other years, you might get 1 of these types a draft, if that.

I see that PM Bangers does not rate him much at all for some reason kicking overhead marking accountability decision making.

 

[Sphynx]

I see that PM Bangers does not rate him much at all for some reason kicking overhead marking accountability decision making.

Kicking can't possibly be a negative assigned to him.

Decision making at a stretch, but in terms of his technical kicking action, he's one of the best kicks of the last few drafts.

Very few have the penetration he has at 17/18 years of age.

He's not just a guy that kicks 60m rainbows either. He kicks low, penetrating, zone busting passes of 55-60m regularly.

 

[Passmore]

I see that PM Bangers does not rate him much at all for some reason kicking overhead marking accountability decision making.

Apart from that, there's a lot to like.

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

 

[Merlin007]

Clarkson's recruitment principles when he was at Hawthorn was take players who had traits you can't teach then focus development on things you can teach. You can't really teach players to kick like Shoenmaker, you can probably work on the things he isn't great at.

I am not sure who the focus would be.

Prior to Clarkson the kind of players we pick has been the crux of the problem, we pick a lot of players that didn't have elite attributes like kicking ability or speed or anything memorable so they lacked impact even when we brought them in. You need something that will make you stand out.

I recall the Bulldogs list manager saying exactly that after their 2016 flag - pick players with at least one elite trait - eg JJ for pace - and work on that and worry less about what players can’t do

 

[Kanga Glory]

AFL Draft 2023: The rise of the unstoppable and ‘unique’ Zane Duursma​

North Melbourne and Hawthorn fans have lots to look forward to if their club lands Zane Duursma in this year’s draft. Here’s why the ‘unique’ talent is one of the most exciting players in the pool.
Chris Cavanagh
Follow
@chriscavanagh1

4 min read
October 24, 2023 - 4:00PM
News Corp Australia Sports Newsroom



He doesn’t yet have his own signature goal celebration, like older brother Xavier’s famous arrow.
But in a football sense, Zane Duursma possesses as many weapons as a small army.
Described by talent scouts as a “really unique” player in this year’s AFL draft pool, there is little that Duursma can’t do.
Opposition sides in the Coates Talent League this season would put plenty of time into finding a way to limit his impact when preparing for games against Gippsland Power.
Few enjoyed even a mild level of success.
“He was never held goalless, even though most of the attention from the opposition goes to your No. 1 kid,” Gippsland talent manager Scott McDougal said.
“They plan around, ‘How do we stop Duursma?’ It’s nearly an impossible task because he runs quicker, jumps higher and is cleaner than 90 per cent of the competition.
“He can be death by a thousand cuts when he works his way through a game or he can just jump on you and kick quick goals.
“He’s a really professional kid who just shows up ready to get it done every day.”

Zane Duursma dominated for Gippsland Power this season despite receiving plenty of opposition attention. Picture: Getty Images
Duurmsa trained with Melbourne last summer as part of the AFL Academy program, where his mentor was midfielder Jack Viney

7

Jack Viney

Age

31

Ht

179cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

22.1

5star

K

9.4

4star

HB

12.6

5star

M

2.8

3star

T

5.7

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

21.8

5star

K

10.3

4star

HB

11.5

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

4.5

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

13.4

4star

K

8.6

4star

HB

4.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

3.6

5star

.
The boy from Foster — just north of Wilson’s Promontory — had entered this season hoping to similarly serve as a midfielder who could rotate forward.
However, it was quickly established that he was a player who would be most damaging forward of centre.
“Now that I look back on it, I think playing more forward is the right idea,” Duursma said.
“I think that half forward hit-up role is my go-to role and I think that’s hopefully where I’ll begin my AFL career.”
While they were dazzled by some of Duurmsa’s tricks, recruiters questioned his consistency at times in the first half of this season.
Few knew that he copped a bad corky during the AFL Academy game against Port Adelaide’s SANFL side in Gather Round and had also battled a chest infection through the early rounds of the season.
“I was struggling to breathe out on the ground sometimes,” Duursma said.
“But it came good in a couple of weeks.”
By the time Vic Country’s final match of the under-18 national championships against Vic Metro rolled around in mid-July, the 191cm forward had well and truly hit his straps.
Among many of the country’s top draft prospects — including Harley Reid and Nick Watson — he was a clear standout across half-forward at Princes Park that day.
Duursma logged 22 disposals, 10 marks, 15 score involvements, six score assists and kicked four goals to spearhead Vic Country to a 31-point win over its arch rival.
Champion Data had Duursma down for 191 SuperCoach ranking points, with the next best performer on the ground being Vic Country teammate Finn O’Sullivan with just 115 points.
“In the biggest game of the year he was the best player,” AFL talent ambassador Kevin Sheehan said.
“When it was on the line, he came out in that third quarter and just blew the game apart.
“He comes from nowhere at times and jumps straight across the front of the pack, from the angle. Not many can do that.
“He does some very unusual things at times that are freakish. That includes his goals and when he’s on-song he’ll kick multiples in a row.”

Zane Duursma was best on ground for Vic Country in the biggest game of the year. Picture: Getty Images
Known to teammates simply as ‘Duurs’, this year’s performances have not come as much of a surprise to recruiters who have long had him on their radar.
Duursma kicked three goals from 12 disposals on debut for Gippsland Power in early 2021 — aged just 15.
That same year, he booted 10 goals across four senior games for his hometown club Foster in the Mid Gippsland Football League.
“He has got a serious point of difference to a lot of other players in this draft,” one recruiter said.
“He’s got that ability to be a Bailey Fristch-type player when he goes forward. He’s hard to beat in the air and beats you on the ground.”
Duursma himself looks up to two-time Brownlow Medal winner Nat Fyfe, but others have likened him to former Port Adelaide and Hawthorn champion Shaun Burgoyne

9

Shaun Burgoyne

Age

43

Ht

186cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

9.9

4star

HB

8.1

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.8

5star

MG

162.7

3star

D

10.0

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.6

4star

MG

162.7

3star

D

6.2

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

1.6

4star

.
Burgoyne — who was affectionately nicknamed ‘Silk’ — started his career as a high-impact player at both ends of the ground before pushing into the midfield later in his career.
Duursma has scope to eventually do the same.
At the national draft combine earlier this month, Duursma placed second in the running vertical jump, while also ranking above-average in the 20m sprint with a time of 3.055 seconds.
After the first day of the combine, he made a quick trip home to Gippsland to attend the Power’s awards night and collected the Peter Francis Best and Fairest.
“We just think he’s got an innate ability to keep changing gears and we haven’t found where those gears stop,” McDougal said.
“After the last game of the under-18 national championships, he just kept putting exclamation marks on his name.”

Zane Duursma is quick and agile and can seriously jump. Picture: Getty Images
Duursma’s two older siblings — Xavier and Yasmin — have already made the big time in football.
Xavier was drafted to Port Adelaide with pick 18 in the 2018 national draft and is now at Essendon, while Yasmin found her way to the Power at pick 45 in the 2022 AFLW Draft.
Zane might just be the pick of a talented football family, shaping as a top-five selection this year.
Either North Melbourne (picks 2 and 3) or Hawthorn (pick 4) are expected to make sure of that.
“It’s going to be pretty cool to be the third one in the family,” Zane said.

More Coverage​

Who Roos, Hawks and Dogs like in draft’s top six
Draft Rankings: Late bolters, sliders shaking up order
“It’s really an honour.”
There could yet be a fourth draftee to come from the Duursma clan, too.
Younger brother Willem also impressed across six games for Gippsland Power this year, despite not being draft eligible until 2025.

Inside 50 Newslett​

 

[Ura]

If the AFL wants a draft night trade it won't happen. But from a WCE fans point of view if they're going to trade it then it's probably best for them to do it early so the shock isn't there come draft night.

AFL would love that trade to happen draft night. Would be huge night

 

[Tas]

Any draft kids watchers know what happened to Ashton Moir? He had elite kicking skills off both sides and was a top 5 fancy last year, he kind of fell off a cliff this year and is a borderline round one pick. What went wrong and is he worth the punt if we retain our late first round picks?

 

[Amicalola]

I'm not sold on Duursma. I get that he's good, but he just doesn't fit our needs profile at all. Isn't part of the reason we got so bad that we only drafted midfielders for many years, leading to a glut of them and a dearth of players in other positions. Seems to me that we are one draft away from doing that with forwards instead.

 

[ohmygewd]

Out of Ollie, Arie or Zane which one possess the hight footy IQ/decision making in your opinion?

Could you develop a George Stevens in that Silicy-type defender? He'll have the strength to play against these hybrid forwards, his IQ/decision making is bloody good.

I feel we do need a 195+ lockdown defender who has excellent defensive positioning rather than an interceptor which we've got in Logue and probably the reason Benny cracked the sads and left for scumland?

 

[Psicosis]

I'm not sold on Duursma. I get that he's good, but he just doesn't fit our needs profile at all. Isn't part of the reason we got so bad that we only drafted midfielders for many years, leading to a glut of them and a dearth of players in other positions. Seems to me that we are one draft away from doing that with forwards instead.

Next time you want to post about needs profile of a top 3 pick for a side that has won 8 games in 3 years, don’t.

We need good players everywhere. Not taking best available because we speculate we may have someone to play that role is silly.

I’ll leave on a quote from Simon Darymple, widely considered one of if not the best recruiter in the land, “the biggest mistakes I’ve made on draft night have been going for need over best available in the first round. Never again”.

 

[Amicalola]

Next time you want to post about needs profile of a top 3 pick for a side that has won 8 games in 3 years, don’t.

We need good players everywhere. Not taking best available because we speculate we may have someone to play that role is silly.

I’ll leave on a quote from Simon Darymple, widely considered one of if not the best recruiter in the land, “the biggest mistakes I’ve made on draft night have been going for need over best available in the first round. Never again”.

It would have been so easy for you to only include the second two paragraphs of this post... Thanks for the information, I guess.