List Mgmt. 2023 Trade Thread - Part I

[George]

 

[bird_man]

That mark from behind looked like his brother. I thought he looked okay myself. Probably not far off Roma already to be honest and still young enough to become very good. Not sure I want to spend what he'd cost though. We need to start to find our own instead of trying to trade in what we're missing. It's inefficient unless you can find a few diamonds in the rough. We haven't got enough young talent to sit out of more drafts.

Still a long way off Roma IMO

Was well beaten by Nankervis in the ruck and had a total of 2 marks for the game

People that talk him up have got to stop acting as though he’s a 19 year old kid. Marshall was a runner up best and fairest when he was his age

 

[gringo2011]

But they go hand in hand.

Are they not exploring what they have whilst attempting to make finals?

It isn’t just one way.

Again, I’ve always said my expectation is that as a member/supporter I will have clarity about my football club in September 2023.

If we are potential contenders now or next year. We make finals regardless of injuries.

If we are a finals side (6-8). The injuries probably stop us making them.

If we are the 9-12 best side. The injuries send us towards a top 3-5 pick.

It took him half the season not a full year at Freo.

 

[bird_man]

I just don't understand what is left to find out. We blooded heaps of young players under Ratten. I don't think we need to spend an entire year figuring out if a handful of players will make it or not. We finished 10th and 10th the last two years, to me we don't have a premiership list and that hasn't been developed properly so we will need to undertake a rebuild to fix that, primarily the issues we now face of having brought in older established players for the sake of going to the draft. Why does a coach like Ross Lyon need 12 months to figure that out? Our deficiencies seem pretty obvious.

However, with the list we currently have, we should be playing finals this year. If we missed by a game last year, have an easier schedule this year coupled with an apparently vastly improved coaching staff and standards, then finding 1 or 2 wins should not be a problem.

To me (and probably others), spending a year to "find out" about players seems like an excuse. If Ross truly believes in a possibility mindset then why doesn't he apply that thinking to this year. He has deliberately watered down expectation with the "year of exploration" stuff but we shouldn't just accept that, we have a list capable of playing finals and so that should be the aim. Fremantle had 14 wins and finished 7th the first year under Ross in a year he said that he needed to find out about the list as well. No reason why that can't be us.

I feel like the narrative coming from him is that we are going to slide a bit because we're going to try new things and play kids. We've played kids last year and the year before that. We can do both.

It won't take much either - a bit of mental fortitude instilled into the players should be enough to get 1 or 2 more wins. If they actually have a crack every quarter of every game that's all it will take, too often we have gone to sleep or not turned up and it has cost us come the end of the year. It won't take much to find ourselves playing finals this year. I don't understand why people are okay with us not making the eight - it's gettable and we should be expecting it as supporters.

It’s going to be tough to make finals with the injuries we have. Our list just isn’t good enough to cover the losses.

 

[NextYearPlease]

I'm just so sick of the excuses. We appointed Lyon and the rest of the footy dept newbies so we couldn't make excuses, but now they have arrived that's what we're doing. Not making finals this year would be a failure any way you slice it IMO. If we want to be truly elite then we develop the list and play finals at the same time. Sides like Geelong and Sydney have no issue with it.

George, is it time you found another team?

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gringo2011]

Still a long way off Roma IMO

Was well beaten by Nankervis in the ruck and had a total of 2 marks for the game

People that talk him up have got to stop acting as though he’s a 19 year old kid. Marshall was a runner up best and fairest when he was his age

He'd played 23 games before last year, He broke out and you'd imagine he'd go up another level this year. Roma came in a bit older and TDK had a few injury interruptions along the way. I think he's going to be a good player. Not sure how good but he looks very promising.

 

[stavro#4]

It took him half the season not a full year at Freo.

His exact words were that it took him 12 months.

Said it the other day.

 

[jh38]

It’s going to be tough to make finals with the injuries we have. Our list just isn’t good enough to cover the losses.

I hate to sound like a broken record but the Pies made finals with a fair few relatively unknown players. We will probably have 6-8 weeks of pain in terms of having thin squad depth but after that we're primed to make a charge. I think we'll see a few players that Ratts may not have played come on this year and make a difference. That coupled with a few kids stepping up is enough to lift our list enough.

 

[gringo2011]

It’s going to be tough to make finals with the injuries we have. Our list just isn’t good enough to cover the losses.

King, Membrey and Ross are all in our best 22 but the rest of the injuries are a bit borderline. It gives us less options but shouldn't write off the season. Higgins, Phillipou, Gresham and Butler with Owens and Caminiti to help bring the ball to ground might not be a star studded line up but the way we used the forwards last year was hardly setting the world on fire.

Playing without Gresham, Jones and Steele last year was worse IMO. Having a hole in your best midfield set up hurts more than losing couple of forwards.

 

[gringo2011]

His exact words were that it took him 12 months.

Said it the other day.

He's Joe Biden these days, probably can't remember.

 

[George]

George, is it time you found another team?

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

I've supported the club all my life and pumped thousands into them, nothing I want to see more than to see us be successful. It's a cheap cop-out to tell someone to go support someone else because they may be concerned about the direction the club is in.

 

[George]

It’s going to be tough to make finals with the injuries we have. Our list just isn’t good enough to cover the losses.

I think the easier schedule and much improved coaching group will help. We are only going to do it tough for the first month.

 

[pebblesofsand]

I just don't understand what is left to find out. We blooded heaps of young players under Ratten. I don't think we need to spend an entire year figuring out if a handful of players will make it or not. We finished 10th and 10th the last two years, to me we don't have a premiership list and that hasn't been developed properly so we will need to undertake a rebuild to fix that, primarily the issues we now face of having brought in older established players for the sake of going to the draft. Why does a coach like Ross Lyon need 12 months to figure that out? Our deficiencies seem pretty obvious.

However, with the list we currently have, we should be playing finals this year. If we missed by a game last year, have an easier schedule this year coupled with an apparently vastly improved coaching staff and standards, then finding 1 or 2 wins should not be a problem.

To me (and probably others), spending a year to "find out" about players seems like an excuse. If Ross truly believes in a possibility mindset then why doesn't he apply that thinking to this year. He has deliberately watered down expectation with the "year of exploration" stuff but we shouldn't just accept that, we have a list capable of playing finals and so that should be the aim. Fremantle had 14 wins and finished 7th the first year under Ross in a year he said that he needed to find out about the list as well. No reason why that can't be us.

I feel like the narrative coming from him is that we are going to slide a bit because we're going to try new things and play kids. We've played kids last year and the year before that. We can do both.

It won't take much either - a bit of mental fortitude instilled into the players should be enough to get 1 or 2 more wins. If they actually have a crack every quarter of every game that's all it will take, too often we have gone to sleep or not turned up and it has cost us come the end of the year. It won't take much to find ourselves playing finals this year. I don't understand why people are okay with us not making the eight - it's gettable and we should be expecting it as supporters.

I'll say it again - I have no doubt the squad we have is capable of playing finals and with a bit of luck going deep into those finals.

8/3 at the turn last year demonstrates that and I'm certain that Bassat didn't sack Ratten on the basis that he thought we over-performed in the first half and that the second half was our true representation of our squad.

If people actually read the review, they'll see that the three substantial recommendations were

1. Identify and recruit an experienced Head of Football.

2. Improve the leadership and capacity of the Coaching group.

3. Make further investment in the leadership and development programs for our players

Unfortunately we sorted 1 out then Walsh has had to resign.

2 & 3 have been addressed by the wholesale restructure of the coaching group.

List management and execution was a lesser issue which indicates to me that they think the list is relatively structural sound and believe the first 1/2 of the season was a better representation of where we're at than what was dished up in the second 2nd half.

Thats why they sacked Ratten, thats why they employed Lyon - that's why I strongly believed finals were the minimum pass mark.(Unhappy that I have to now concede that the pre season injury s***storm may make that unrealistic)

 

[George]

But they go hand in hand.

Are they not exploring what they have whilst attempting to make finals?

It isn’t just one way.

Again, I’ve always said my expectation is that as a member/supporter I will have clarity about my football club in September 2023.

If we are potential contenders now or next year. We make finals regardless of injuries.

If we are a finals side (6-8). The injuries probably stop us making them.

If we are the 9-12 best side. The injuries send us towards a top 3-5 pick.

I think there will always be some excuse. Some will use injury as an excuse to say that they didn't find out about so and so player and because of this, 2024 is the real year we find out. We're all sick of waiting around lol. It didn't stop Collingwood last year or Geelong, WB and Sydney rebuilding and still challenging. If the club reckons they can do both then why not set expectations at finals as a minimum and along the way we will find out about a few. It doesn't seem like the focus is about finals for us, it just seems like a bonus if it happens.

I want us to be an elite team and to quit pushing the deadlines back. We've never been this good off-field and now, arguably, never had this amount of expertise in the coaches box. You may be more patient than I am but I still believe missing finals would be a failure. Winning does wonders for players and especially winning big games. I would take that any day over finishing 9th with a better pick.

 

[bird_man]

He'd played 23 games before last year, He broke out and you'd imagine he'd go up another level this year. Roma came in a bit older and TDK had a few injury interruptions along the way. I think he's going to be a good player. Not sure how good but he looks very promising.

Marshall had played less games by the time he started the year he was 2nd in the best and fairest.

 

[Mowman]

I think there will always be some excuse. Some will use injury as an excuse to say that they didn't find out about so and so player and because of this, 2024 is the real year we find out. We're all sick of waiting around lol. It didn't stop Collingwood last year or Geelong, WB and Sydney rebuilding and still challenging. If the club reckons they can do both then why not set expectations at finals as a minimum and along the way we will find out about a few. It doesn't seem like the focus is about finals for us, it just seems like a bonus if it happens.

I want us to be an elite team and to quit pushing the deadlines back. We've never been this good off-field and now, arguably, never had this amount of expertise in the coaches box. You may be more patient than I am but I still believe missing finals would be a failure. Winning does wonders for players and especially winning big games. I would take that any day over finishing 9th with a better pick.

Being conditioned not to play finals again
Plenty of sides rebuild/reset while still making finals and being very competitive

 

[bird_man]

King, Membrey and Ross are all in our best 22 but the rest of the injuries are a bit borderline. It gives us less options but shouldn't write off the season. Higgins, Phillipou, Gresham and Butler with Owens and Caminiti to help bring the ball to ground might not be a star studded line up but the way we used the forwards last year was hardly setting the world on fire.

Playing without Gresham, Jones and Steele last year was worse IMO. Having a hole in your best midfield set up hurts more than losing couple of forwards.

I don’t think we were ever down to 28 for players last year.

Whether you think some guys are best 22 or on the cusp, they would each be playing this week if they were fit so it really asks a lot from your depth, some of which would be rated 32 best on the list.

Strange that you can use Jones as an example last year yet he is out this year but not to matter because he isn’t best 22?

Gresham and Steele were never out at the same time. By the time Gresham got his injury we already looked cook and the writing was on the wall.

Our midfield as a whole was never really depleted. Bytel couldn’t get himself a game.

 

[George]

Being conditioned not to play finals again
Plenty of sides rebuild/reset while still making finals and being very competitive

Conditioned not to play finals is very true. I know this is probably too harsh but I don't know how else to phrase it lol but it's loser mentality, or something similar.

To be fair to Ross I don't think he's made any excuses I just think his focus is off. To me, it shouldn't be "find out about players with finals as a bonus" it should be "finals minimum and find out about players along the way". That's what the elite sides do. If we were totally shit then sure drop down a peg and make development the focus but we had the skill to be 8-3 at the break last year and we only missed finals by a game so we're still very much in it.

Wouldn't it be great to be challenging for top four and flags for 20 straight years. I think there's an element of us holding ourselves back by the stories we tell ourselves and the modest expectations we set. It's hard not to believe that we are burdened by our history. That's got to change.

 

[Mowman]

Conditioned not to play finals is very true. I know this is probably too harsh but I don't know how else to phrase it lol but it's loser mentality, or something similar.

To be fair to Ross I don't think he's made any excuses I just think his focus is off. To me, it shouldn't be "find out about players with finals as a bonus" it should be "finals minimum and find out about players along the way". That's what the elite sides do. Wouldn't it be great to be challenging for top four and flags for 20 straight years. I think there's an element of us holding ourselves back by the stories we tell ourselves and the modest expectations we set. It's hard not to believe that we are burdened by our history. That's got to change.

100% this
Could not have said it better

 

[StCicatriz]

man the irony in this thread is off the charts

 

[gringo2011]

I don’t think we were ever down to 28 for players last year.

Whether you think some guys are best 22 or on the cusp, they would each be playing this week if they were fit so it really asks a lot from your depth, some of which would be rated 32 best on the list.

Strange that you can use Jones as an example last year yet he is out this year but not to matter because he isn’t best 22?

Gresham and Steele were never out at the same time. By the time Gresham got his injury we already looked cook and the writing was on the wall.

Our midfield as a whole was never really depleted. Bytel couldn’t get himself a game.

Alright we are ****ed. Might as well just not turn up. Tank time.

 

[Saint Christopher]

Conditioned not to play finals is very true. I know this is probably too harsh but I don't know how else to phrase it lol but it's loser mentality, or something similar.

To be fair to Ross I don't think he's made any excuses I just think his focus is off. To me, it shouldn't be "find out about players with finals as a bonus" it should be "finals minimum and find out about players along the way". That's what the elite sides do. If we were totally s**t then sure drop down a peg and make development the focus but we had the skill to be 8-3 at the break last year and we only missed finals by a game so we're still very much in it.

Wouldn't it be great to be challenging for top four and flags for 20 straight years. I think there's an element of us holding ourselves back by the stories we tell ourselves and the modest expectations we set. It's hard not to believe that we are burdened by our history. That's got to change.

Agree man, loser mentality, but but but but every year...

Don’t post here very often but wanted to say I can see the myriad points of view in this latest discussion but I have to say my excitement of Ross and the old boys assembling at the bottom of Everest is starting to be tempered by this ‘year of exploration’ monologue. I fully agree it is a year of exploration but Ross was brought in, so we were told, to improve the culture, professionalism and standards.

( A broken Hannebery was also once brought in to improve training standards, that is how appalling Richardson and his gormless cronies were. They could not identify and fix it themselves and then they had a gameplan of rabid monkeys. And Ratten I think had antiquated game plans, poor leadership and oratory skills. And lived off Clarkson like a remora on a shark.)



Perhaps I am naïve but I would have thought Ross, Banger, Hayes etc meant an improvement on last year not a regression. I am not expecting us to finish top four and with all the injuries we are having perhaps 8th is even unrealistic. But I would expect at least two more wins on last year.

Better draw and IMO a better squad.

If we do finish bottom four then I feel the board spills and Lethlean falls on his sword. We can’t keep accepting this mediocrity, these yearly excuses.

Absolutely though this is the year where we develop and challenge. If we are not good enough ok. Then we develop and challenge again in 2024. My view of the Ross appointment is that he is here to establish the develop/challenge model and to set all our club standards at a height that we don’t lower from.

As the previous posters - GRINGO, Mowman, George have said, I hope the club knows and enacts a dedicated, strategic course of action behind the scenes and holds high expectations for improvement this year, and the next and next. I won’t abide more of this ****** a corpse crap we have had for a decade. I am not a young man anymore.

The first two things I will be looking for are selection integrity (when we have a 90% fit squad) and no losses more than two goals in the first 5 rounds.
don
We can be better and better again next year but don't give ourselves an out before round 1.

 

[Saint Christopher]

George, is it time you found another team?

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Hey fellow Saints supporter, not wanting to have an argument or start one, but this is not cool. It is bull-jive. George is a dedicated Saints fan and has every right to express an opinion, critical or confident, on a forum he moderates. The fact he moderates a STKFC forum tells you he is invested and not interested in supporting another club. One of the reasons I rarely post on here anymore is because of the negativity given to sensible discussion points by fanatical STKFC fans. I get the passion, that is wonderful, I am fanatical too, but to shut down discussion...Anyway, NYP have a good evening.

 

[Mowman]

George, is it time you found another team?

On SM-T290 using BigFooty.com mobile app

If you read all the post you will realise its was four or five of us having a good discussion on the saints, all putting our different views across. all of us just wanting the saints to do well and getting rid of our pre game nerves

 

[kernelT]

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
Butane in my veins and I'm out to cut the junkie

 

[austinnn]

Cats and Swans won flags we didn’t

McEvoy Goddard Dal Santo

But we did improve after those players left, which is the argument I was opposing.