2024/25 Championship, Lower, Non-League & EFL Trophy - On BeIN Sports and iFollow

[Frank Bunn]

No worries, it's a very informative video. I found myself watching a lot of his stuff because he does a lot of research before posting them, and his "What On Earth is going on at..." series has been very informative, although he hasn't done one about Carlisle yet.

It's a shame you didn't go back a year further, in 2013/14 Luton Town won Promotion from National League and they are currently in the Championship after reaching the EPL last season.

Looking at your list of teams that have won promotion to the Football League, a majority of them would be considered "Traditional" EFL teams, that had long histories in the Football League before finding trouble in the last 10-15 years. Clubs like Notts County (joined the League in 1888 - the first season), Grimsby Town (1892), Lincoln City (1892), Chesterfield (1899), Stockport County (1900) and Leyton Orient (1905) have been Football League clubs since the early formative years of the 1880's to 1900's, while Hartlepool, Wrexham, Tranmere Rovers and Bristol Rovers (all 1921) have been part of the football league since formation of the 3rd Tier which was originally made up of separate North and South Divisions until 1958.

I agree that the National League is more professional than it was 30 years, but I still think it will be very difficult for these small clubs that have come up through non-leagues to remain sustainable for any length of time.

There's probably more of a gulf in standard between the Premier League and Championship than NL and L2.

Last season's promoted clubs Leicester, Ipswich and Southampton currently occupy the relegation positions. Previous promoted clubs Burnley, Sheffield United, Luton, Norwich, Watford, Leeds, West Brom, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Middlesbrough
Hull were all relegated - many after just one season in the PL.

 

[SM]

There's probably more of a gulf in standard between the Premier League and Championship than NL and L2.

Last season's promoted clubs Leicester, Ipswich and Southampton currently occupy the relegation positions. Previous promoted clubs Burnley, Sheffield United, Luton, Norwich, Watford, Leeds, West Brom, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Middlesbrough
Hull were all relegated - many after just one season in the PL.

Probably? Absolutely there's a bigger gap. If anything the NL clubs are stronger than L2 clubs due to the different cost control methods.

 

[CURVE]

There's probably more of a gulf in standard between the Premier League and Championship than NL and L2.

Last season's promoted clubs Leicester, Ipswich and Southampton currently occupy the relegation positions. Previous promoted clubs Burnley, Sheffield United, Luton, Norwich, Watford, Leeds, West Brom, Cardiff, Huddersfield, Middlesbrough
Hull were all relegated - many after just one season in the PL.

True, but League Two Clubs have to comply with the Salary Cost Management Protocols (SCMP) which limits how much of a club's revenue can be spent on wages, in League Two it is 55%, in the National League there are no restrictions so they can pay more and attract better players, but once they win promotion they must comply with the SCMP like the other 23 clubs.

There are also Financial Fair Play and Equity investment rules along with squad restrictions and Ground Capacity requirements that they need to follow. As far as I can tell, none of these apply to the National League or any of the lower leagues.

Teams winning promotion from the NL arrive in League Two on the back of some success and with momentum on their side which carries over into their first L2 season, especially if they have been able to retain a number of their stars, and some follow up with an equally successful L2 season, but a number of them, especially those smaller non-league clubs, find themselves falling back to NL in the coming seasons.

If you look at the bottom half of League Two now, it is full of these clubs that have worked their way through the lower leagues and are now battling to remain in the League, Morecambe is favourite for relegation (along with Carlisle ) but there is also Harrogate Town, Accrington Stanley, Barrow, Newport County, Cheltenham Town, Bromley and Fleetwood Town all in the bottom half.

The most recent example is Forest Green Rovers, who were in L1 in 2022/23 but now find themselves back in the NL because they are lacking the support and Infrastructure to maintain a Football League position and that is the biggest disparity between the "new" and the "traditional" Football League Clubs, the new clubs don't have the supporter base or the infrastructure to remain competitive in the football league for any length of time, and will generally find themselves back in the lower leagues with 10-15 years.

 

[SM]

True, but League Two Clubs have to comply with the Salary Cost Management Protocols (SCMP) which limits how much of a club's revenue can be spent on wages, in League Two it is 55%, in the National League there are no restrictions so they can pay more and attract better players, but once they win promotion they must comply with the SCMP like the other 23 clubs.

There are also Financial Fair Play and Equity investment rules along with squad restrictions and Ground Capacity requirements that they need to follow. As far as I can tell, none of these apply to the National League or any of the lower leagues.

Pretty sure they get a year's amnesty.

 

[CURVE]

Pretty sure they get a year's amnesty.

There is no mention of an amnesty in the EFL handbook, but it would explain why many newly promoted clubs perform well in their first season and start struggling in the following seasons.

 

[SM]

There is no mention of an amnesty in the EFL handbook, but it would explain why many newly promoted clubs perform well in their first season and start struggling in the following seasons.

Birmingham for instance are not copping any salary cap restrictions based on their Championship salaries.

 

[CURVE]

Birmingham for instance are not copping any salary cap restrictions based on their Championship salaries.

Having gone through the EFL Regulations Handbook a little more thoroughly while on the bus home, there are some exemptions for clubs relegated from the Championship to League One (they can spend up to 75% instead of 60% of turnover in the first year), but there is no mention of any exemptions for teams being relegated or promoted to League Two, so I can only assume that all League Two teams must comply with the SCMP straight away.

 

[Frank Bunn]

True, but League Two Clubs have to comply with the Salary Cost Management Protocols (SCMP) which limits how much of a club's revenue can be spent on wages, in League Two it is 55%, in the National League there are no restrictions so they can pay more and attract better players, but once they win promotion they must comply with the SCMP like the other 23 clubs.

There are also Financial Fair Play and Equity investment rules along with squad restrictions and Ground Capacity requirements that they need to follow. As far as I can tell, none of these apply to the National League or any of the lower leagues.

Teams winning promotion from the NL arrive in League Two on the back of some success and with momentum on their side which carries over into their first L2 season, especially if they have been able to retain a number of their stars, and some follow up with an equally successful L2 season, but a number of them, especially those smaller non-league clubs, find themselves falling back to NL in the coming seasons.

If you look at the bottom half of League Two now, it is full of these clubs that have worked their way through the lower leagues and are now battling to remain in the League, Morecambe is favourite for relegation (along with Carlisle ) but there is also Harrogate Town, Accrington Stanley, Barrow, Newport County, Cheltenham Town, Bromley and Fleetwood Town all in the bottom half.

The most recent example is Forest Green Rovers, who were in L1 in 2022/23 but now find themselves back in the NL because they are lacking the support and Infrastructure to maintain a Football League position and that is the biggest disparity between the "new" and the "traditional" Football League Clubs, the new clubs don't have the supporter base or the infrastructure to remain competitive in the football league for any length of time, and will generally find themselves back in the lower leagues with 10-15 years.

I provided the data for the last 10 seasons. 15 of the 20 promoted clubs have stayed in L2 or above.

Just because they can pay higher wages doesn't mean always do. I don't see how the potential financial advantages of NL clubs diminishes an argument for 3 up 3 down.

 

[CURVE]

I provided the data for the last 10 seasons. 15 of the 20 promoted clubs have stayed in L2 or above.

Just because they can pay higher wages doesn't mean always do. I don't see how the potential financial advantages of NL clubs diminishes an argument for 3 up 3 down.

Because if you exclude the former FL clubs working their way back into the EFL (which is 11 of the 15 you listed) then a majority of the other clubs that win promotion struggle in the EFL because they don't have supporter base or infrastructure and can't generate the level of sponsorships required to remain competitive for an extended period of time.

At least that is what I have seen in the 45+ years I have been supporting Carlisle United and following the lower leagues a little more closely.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Because if you exclude the former FL clubs working their way back into the EFL (which is 11 of the 15 you listed) then a majority of the other clubs that win promotion struggle in the EFL because they don't have supporter base or infrastructure and can't generate the level of sponsorships required to remain competitive for an extended period of time.

At least that is what I have seen in the 45+ years I have been supporting Carlisle United and following the lower leagues a little more closely.

I disagree with your logic there. 15 out of 20 clubs retaining their FL status is the majority. Then, as you said, if I had gone back one more season it would include Luton who went Conf Prem to PL in 10 seasons.

The fortunes of clubs rise and fall. Clubs should be rewarded by success on the field. The supporter base will grow, sponsorships will increase, infrastructure can be improved. Look at Wigan Athletic. Through much of their history they played in the Cheshire County or Lancashire Combination. Since gaining entry to the FL they have risen to play several seasons in the PL, won the FA Cup and built a new stadium.

Things have changed in recent times so 45 years is too far to go back to figure out the best solution for the current situation. But the history is interesting. Wigan won the Northern Premier League in 1978 before there was a national 5th division. At that time the bottom four FL clubs had to apply for re-election against the winners of the NPL and Southern League. In the first round of voting Wigan tied with Southport then got through in the 2nd round of voting. The re-election process was scrapped in 1986-87 in favour of an automatic 1 up 1 down system. 2002-03 was the first year of 2 up 2 down.

 

[CURVE]

I disagree with your logic there. 15 out of 20 clubs retaining their FL status is the majority. Then, as you said, if I had gone back one more season it would include Luton who went Conf Prem to PL in 10 seasons.

The fortunes of clubs rise and fall. Clubs should be rewarded by success on the field. The supporter base will grow, sponsorships will increase, infrastructure can be improved. Look at Wigan Athletic. Through much of their history they played in the Cheshire County or Lancashire Combination. Since gaining entry to the FL they have risen to play several seasons in the PL, won the FA Cup and built a new stadium.

Things have changed in recent times so 45 years is too far to go back to figure out the best solution for the current situation. But the history is interesting. Wigan won the Northern Premier League in 1978 before there was a national 5th division. At that time the bottom four FL clubs had to apply for re-election against the winners of the NPL and Southern League. In the first round of voting Wigan tied with Southport then got through in the 2nd round of voting. The re-election process was scrapped in 1986-87 in favour of an automatic 1 up 1 down system. 2002-03 was the first year of 2 up 2 down.

It's easier to make a success of your return to the EFL when you already have the supporter base and infrastructure in place than it is to develop them once you have arrived. As for sponsorship I don't see many of these clubs with multinationals on their shirts, most if not all have local sponsors who can't provide the level of funding required to remain competitive long term.

 

[CURVE]

Carlisle United lost 1-0 to Newport County this morning to remain at the bottom of the football league.

We are up to our third Manager for the season, and although defensively we look a little better, we are still struggling to kick goals.

I think it's inevitable now that we will be relegated the National League at the end of the season.

 

[SM]

Score goals.

 

[joop]

We are absolutely cruising right now which is setting us up perfectly for the inevitable late season collapse.

 

[Jaymin]

We are absolutely cruising right now which is setting us up perfectly for the inevitable late season collapse.

We just need to get far enough in front that when we collapse we still go up.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Huge next two games against Sunderland and SU

 

[Upstart Swan]

Luton Town now bottom of the Championship table. I don't know what's gone wrong. They have a similar squad to last season. And I thought them a really well-run organisation.

 

[Jaymin]

Luton Town now bottom of the Championship table. I don't know what's gone wrong. They have a similar squad to last season. And I thought them a really well-run organisation.

This would surely have to be the first time a relegated team was bottom of the table at this stage of the season.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Plymouth revitalised since Rooney sacking. Just 2 losses from last 8 league games incluidng huge win overnight, win against Brom and draw away to Sunderland. Knocked out Brentford and Pool in the FA Cup!

 

[SM]

This would surely have to be the first time a relegated team was bottom of the table at this stage of the season.

I'm thinking wolves potentially but you could be right.

 

[Jaymin]

Burnley with another 0-0 draw…

Their 11th for the season.

 

[RossFC]

Burnley with another 0-0 draw…

Their 11th for the season.

Someone please stop them from going up.

 

[joop]

Oh boy, what a win that was.

 

[CURVE]

Personally, I thought this video was totally unnecessary as Luton are where they should be, they are no more than a Championship/League 1 side, but HITC Seven thought a third Luton video in 3 years was needed.

Nonetheless it was interesting.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Big 3 points for Hull with 3 of the bottom 5 playing at the same time and all dropping points. Even better to beat Sunderland, hope they don't come back up tbh.