List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion - part 2

[gringo2011]

Agree to disagree

'Solid gets' don't equal $1m+ contracts in my book though (which is what fkd Carlton's cap)

They were over paid to get them in but some of it was bad luck. Big time gambles that were absolutely disastrous long term for their future and limited their ability to add pieces when they got close.

They got spooked because improvement was slow and started grabbing at things like Essendon did. Incredibly a lot of their actual improvement was the organic internal stuff from players like Cripps, Weitering, Curnow and McKay becoming elite. They came good before seeing a return on the gamble.

 

[The_Steadier]

Dropping marks on purpose because of his brand?!

Seriously mods, can we have some sort of qualification before people are allowed to post on here?

Nothing too demanding, just a few revealing questions, like:

1) Is the moon made of cheese?

2) Are the government stealing your thoughts?

3) Is the USA president a shape-shifting lizard person?

4) Was the Australian TV series "Sea Patrol" a documentary?

Just something to weed out those with one wheel clearly stuck in the sand.......

I've got the flu at the moment- and just woke up from a fever dream in which I invented a new brilliant concept.

The AFL won't scrap the Father Son rule.

So instead.... we should make the AFL introduce the Former Dud rule.

Welcome home Ben

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

Righto , you are saying they were overpaided because they were spuds , A , they weren't spuds and B , maybe look in your own back yard as our team is going to end up paying way overs for TDK , Is he a spud too

It's pretty clear what I said.

I'm not that invested Ito get into another boring tit for tat with you knackers.

 

[hangdog]

Here's the thing, nobody really knows the figures. Yes, both sides of these arguments pull figures that have been "reported" but it's mostly speculation at best.

I understand you enjoy list management debates. You've spoken about how people have open debates with sports like NFL I believe. For me personally though, I find trying to really dig down into it when I don't have all the facts a bit of a waste of time. When you just want to keep relentlessly going on about it, many will take it as looking for reasons to bag the club.

Having said that, I get that some here think all the club does is shit gold nuggets.

At the end of the day though, relentless speculation without having the facts is kinda mind numbing.

I've accepted TDK is coming and hope its works a treat. I'll let the club worry about the money. I'm really not sold on Aleer. I desperately want us to keep Windy. Nothing I can do about any of it though, and going back and forth on it doesn't achieve anything.

What I'm looking for next year is improvement from our coaches. Something that gets mentioned very little here. If we want to maximise the benefit of bringing new players in and having King back, I want to see us playing smarter, better structured footy. I'm hoping for a big emphasis on skills in the pre season.

 

[gringo2011]

I hope like others that Dodson will be good, but comparing him to Luke Jackson seems a bit far fetched?
For a “potential” first rounder why did he fall to us after Geelong drafted the second ruck on his team?

He was talked about as a potential end of first round pick in a super draft but there was talk that he might cut and run back to basketball if it didn't work out at AFL level. Sometimes you just get lucky for whatever reason. He's probably a hybrid ruck rather than a pure dominant tap ruckman. perhaps it was positional rather than a judgement on his ability with Geelong.

 

[gringo2011]

I'll preface this by saying I want to keep him and would hope our offer has increased for him. But at the same time, we might be overstating his presence in the midfield recently. He's been playing wing and half back mainly, not full time midfield when not tagging.

Nas will be midfield every game next year. We've chosen to play Hugo in there ahead of him. We will play a fit Pou in there ahead of him. We've expressed a desire for Wilson and Boxhall to spend time there. Maybe Hall, Henry, even Higgins etc. If we have 2 rucks, maybe Owens gets more time around the midfield. Plus the two oldies floating around.

All this to say, maybe we believe we have enough similar types and that he's near his ceiling while believing others will match his output for cheaper? For a long time, we've called for list management to not overpay to keep B graders. Could that be what is finally happening with this situation?

Outside mids and wings are as valuable as inside mids and are actually thinner than our inside brigade right now. His adaptability is a massive bonus.

 

[SainterinSydney]

I've got the flu at the moment- and just woke up from a fever dream in which I invented a new brilliant concept.

The AFL won't scrap the Father Son rule.

So instead.... we should make the AFL introduce the Former Dud rule.

Welcome home Ben

View attachment 2404430

Well technically he was playing not as well with us as he is now, which was obviously misleading and deceptive conduct. We relied on that conduct when we didn't offer him an appropriate contract and have suffered loss and damage. Ben Long should be taken to the cleaners

 

[stavro#4]

Brodie Grundy, NikNat, Tim English, they were the first 3 I looked up. All played a fair bit in their second season.

Yep, good choices

Brodie Grundy in 2013 (7 games y1 pies started a rebuild 15 y2 19 y3) pick 18.

Natanui in 2009 (10 games y1 22,23,22 games and then played 20’games or more in 3/9 seasons) pick 2.

English in 2017 (2 games y1, 7 games y2) pick 19.

Jackson in 2020 (6 games in y1) pick 3.

So of the 4 rucks (Jackson included), none were taken outside of the first round.

All were brought along slowly in year 1. Natanui played the most early and fell apart body wise.

And ultimately it’s 4 examples in 17 years.

Which supports the point that it’s not the norm. It’s rare. It only happens with first round picks and all were brought along slowly in year 1 most included year 2.

By the same example… Rowan will be 32 in 2027 and might not even be a saint. So highly unlikely anyone is stopping Dodson.

You have proven my point

 

[SainterinSydney]

Yep, good choices

Brodie Grundy in 2013 (7 games y1 pies started a rebuild 15 y2 19 y3) pick 18.

Natanui in 2009 (10 games y1 22,23,22 games and then played 20’games or more in 3/9 seasons) pick 2.

English in 2017 (2 games y1, 7 games y2) pick 19.

Jackson in 2020 (6 games in y1) pick 3.

So of the 4 rucks (Jackson included), none were taken outside of the first round.

All were brought along slowly in year 1. Natanui played the most early and fell apart body wise.

And ultimately it’s 4 examples in 17 years.

Which supports the point that it’s not the norm. It’s rare. It only happens with first round picks and all were brought along slowly in year 1 most included year 2.

By the same example… Rowan will be 32 in 2027 and might not even be a saint. So highly unlikely anyone is stopping Dodson.

You have proven my point

If we are playing Dodson regularly in the ruck next year, something seriously went wrong, unless he proves to be the second coming over the pre-season.

 

[Verdun]

Just been listening to Gerard W, Kane (yeah don't know why) banging on about the amount the Saints have paid NWM, including commentary that if he gets that much imagine what a good player would get!!!


FFS I reckon NWM is our x factor and damn happy that we have him still even with the $s we are forking out.

Seriously we can not win, develop a great player and still cop shit.

They then went on to say - goods clubs (citing Geelong) do not do what we have done.

We do not have the luxury of our own home ground that brings in millions, ability to grant cotton on franchises and farms outside of the club....but we should aspire to being a good club like Geelong.

Get fd...we are having a crack now, the list is getting legit and I for one am damn happy about it.

 

[gringo2011]

Yet their career production is basically identical. Do you want another Butler (who tackles and pressures less but takes an extra mark or two per game)?

You really can't go off stats. They are quite different players despite the position. Regardless we need some more small forward fire power, If not Ryan we probably need to keep looking for a ready made small high-impact forward.

 

[gringo2011]

If we are playing Dodson regularly in the ruck next year, something seriously went wrong, unless he proves to be the second coming over the pre-season.

He should be getting games in the forward line and taking around the ground ball ups. There is no reason not to develop him in the seniors if he's able to keep up with the training and game load.

 

[St Neil]

There are hundreds of guys that are excellent VFL players but have limitations that stop them being serious AFL players. Ben Paton is a GOP at AFL level but as a small defender he's not overly quick, strong or elite at any one aspect of the game.

Dodson looks like he's an absolute unicorn. If Rory Lobb gets $1.2 million a season for being a tall and mobile player without a lot of elite aspects to his game it shoes how hard they are to find. Good ruck forwards are almost the hardest players to find in footy.

Dodson is going to be a star. I’ve been wanting him to play for ages.

You can see he is getting better and better with every game.

Take the punt and extend him now. It could be a very shrewd list management move.

 

[SainterinSydney]

He should be getting games in the forward line and taking around the ground ball ups. There is no reason not to develop him in the seniors if he's able to keep up with the training and game load.

I agree with you on this. I wouldn't mind seeing him tried in the forward line, especially if King can't get going.

 

[gringo2011]

Just been listening to Gerard W, Kane (yeah don't know why) banging on about the amount the Saints have paid NWM, including commentary that if he gets that much imagine what a good player would get!!!


FFS I reckon NWM is our x factor and damn happy that we have him still even with the $s we are forking out.

Seriously we can not win, develop a great player and still cop shit.

They then went on to say - goods clubs (citing Geelong) do not do what we have done.

We do not have the luxury of our own home ground that brings in millions, ability to grant cotton on franchises and farms outside of the club....but we should aspire to being a good club like Geelong.

Get fd...we are having a crack now, the list is getting legit and I for one am damn happy about it.

They are there to salt wounds to get attention. They are full of shit. NWM is elite and on a 2 years contract. Even if he absolutely shits the bed we are so unexposed in this deal. This is exactly what the pushed forward spare cap space makes sense for.

 

[CaptainRisky]

That still doesn’t make them guns.

The idea of spending big on a half back to transition into midfield is the mature age recruit version of using a top 10 pick on a half back to become a midfielder

LOL , and we would know about doing that , we wasted not one but two picks in the top ten on half backs we thought were going to be mids , One cant get a game at the Dogs and the other cant last 10 mins on the ball without near collapsing

Ps , i never said they were guns , i said if they had come to us the OP would have said they were guns

In my opinion they were massively overrated before they were traded & ended up exactly with distinctly potato like careers.

Just like Shiel, Williams & Martin were highly sort after early picks from the franchises that ended up being very ordinary.

McGovern? Great hands in Adelaide, couldn’t hit the side of a barn & probably living off the achievements of his brother.

And Carlton paid them megabucks.

Which was the original discussion.

Well said Mr Hindsight

 

[CaptainRisky]

It's pretty clear what I said.

I'm not that invested Ito get into another boring tit for tat with you knackers.

And vice versa , wow that's cut me deep , off you go now

 

[Sir Owens]

If we are playing Dodson regularly in the ruck next year, something seriously went wrong, unless he proves to be the second coming over the pre-season.

We will all be bowing down before King DoD in 2026.

First step, have a massive preseason.

 

[stavro#4]

LOL , and we would know about doing that , we wasted not one but two picks in the top ten on half backs we thought were going to be mids , One cant get a game at the Dogs and the other cant last 10 mins on the ball without near collapsing

Ps , i never said they were guns , i said if they had come to us the OP would have said they were guns

Well said Mr Hindsight

I agree we blew those picks (loved collard, thought he would be our hodgey )

 

[gringo2011]

I agree with you on this. I wouldn't mind seeing him tried in the forward line, especially if King can't get going.

Probably ideally both.

King and Dodson would actually be a really frightening pair of talls. You wouldn't get guys like Sicily or May chopping off entries unless they grow 35 cm in the of season.

 

[CaptainRisky]

What do you suggest we do with Windy?

I'm not suggesting anything , I was pointing that you are posting as if you actually know all the facts , which we all know you don't

 

[St Neil]

Just been listening to Gerard W, Kane (yeah don't know why) banging on about the amount the Saints have paid NWM, including commentary that if he gets that much imagine what a good player would get!!!


FFS I reckon NWM is our x factor and damn happy that we have him still even with the $s we are forking out.

Seriously we can not win, develop a great player and still cop shit.

They then went on to say - goods clubs (citing Geelong) do not do what we have done.

We do not have the luxury of our own home ground that brings in millions, ability to grant cotton on franchises and farms outside of the club....but we should aspire to being a good club like Geelong.

Get fd...we are having a crack now, the list is getting legit and I for one am damn happy about it.

Kane Cornes is a dolt.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

He looks more of a natural defender though

Haven’t seen enough of him forward to comment on that

 

[Diehard Saint]

When didn't we take risks? We usually took risks and didn't do the baseline stuff to go with it in that era. If we'd balanced the drafting with going after gambles on broken down spuds on maximum value we would have been a lot closer.

Our issue was that we took gambles that didn't pay off and our drafting was so far below average that we were bleeding from

So, in reality, it’s a case of whether you trust those running the club and making these decisions now more than you did the previous administrations.

I know I do.

I think almost everything they have done since the resigning, and then sacking of Ratts, has been a move in the positive direction. Just a brief look at the list we have now in comparison to what we had just three years ago, should tell you everything you need to know. Drafting is chalk and cheese.

Not saying everything they do will be perfect, but as AB said they’re going out to be the best we can, or die trying. And I don’t think the club has been in a healthier place for decades.

Oh, and if Windy is smart, he’ll stay. And I’m betting he will.

 

[SainterinSydney]

I'm not suggesting anything , I was pointing that you are posting as if you actually know all the facts , which we all know you don't

They are just opinions. I certainly don't know all the facts. In the end, it's an opinion forum.