List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[Saints TV]

Wtf has happened to Kane Kornes? At the 8 min mark he's stated if Max King can play 20 games next year we're playing finals

First Up: Why Blues should trade Walsh, star Demon who has 'let his club down'

Sarah Olle and Kane Cornes unpack the big issues from the round of footy

www.afl.com.au

Mafia got to him

 

[stavro#4]

I'm glad you stated this explicitly. Thank you.

This thought lies implicit within many posts here lately.

It's a ridiculous assumption I reckon.

Nas is 22. He'll be 24 in 2027. What we need to do by 2027 is demonstrate we're well placed long-term.

We shouldn't be rushing to achieve sugar-hit finals placings in 2026 and 2027.

What this year taught us was no-one knows what Nas is thinking.

But I love how we've immediately transitioned from....

"family is what will take him home, not money or anything else"

into

"we must achieve immediate success or he'll leave".

What was the thinking behind the two-year deal?

“It just gives him a bit more opportunity to grow as a player and as a person, and clearly it doesn't affect him being on short-term deals.
“So he just wanted to do that and to see how he's going, see how the club's going, and then reassess and hopefully extend in the future again.”


That’s Ben Williams.

You think Nas wants to stay if we are still outside of the 8 in 2 years?

We would have shown him nothing if that’s what we are achieving and this is the basis for the trade aggression.

Now Ross paints you the exact scenario.

“Two years is a commitment that we need to shift the dial. He gets to look at us and we get to look at Nas,” coach Ross Lyon admitted on Channel 7’s The Agenda Setters.

“Nothing else was happening (with St Kilda’s list management) until we got Nas done.”


We lose Nas. It’s back to rebuilding. TDK doesn’t hurt that. You take draft picks in 2027, it’s 3 years before they are up for renewals (first round picks) it’s probably 5-6 years all up before they need big deals if they are that good.

Surprise surprise, that’s the end of the TDK deal.

 

[phantom13]

I'm glad you stated this explicitly. Thank you.

This thought lies implicit within many posts here lately.

It's a ridiculous assumption I reckon.

Nas is 22. He'll be 24 in 2027. What we need to do by 2027 is demonstrate we're well placed long-term.

We shouldn't be rushing to achieve sugar-hit finals placings in 2026 and 2027.

What this year taught us was no-one knows what Nas is thinking.

But I love how we've immediately transitioned from....

"family is what will take him home, not money or anything else"

into

"we must achieve immediate success or he'll leave".

On the last two points both can be true.

He will always have the lure of home but the lure of success can trump that. If were not playing finals in 26 and beyond then we dont have the lure of success. We can do all the powerpoint presos in the world showing the track were on but theyre not results.

 

[PJays]

Mafia got to him

By "Mafia" did you mean the rabid Saints apologists on BigFooty, who mock anyone that doesn't believe the sun shines from the buttholes of St Kilda's list managers?

 

[PJays]

On the last two points both can be true.

He will always have the lure of home but the lure of success can trump that. If were not playing finals in 26 and beyond then we dont have the lure of success. We can do all the powerpoint presos in the world showing the track were on but theyre not results.

Agreed both can be true

But in 2026 he'll be thinking "I'm 23, who's going to achieve success over the next 5+ years"

He shouldn't be wowed by a couple of bottom end top 8 appearances like 2020 and 2023.

If I'm gazing into a crystal ball, genuine chance we achieve that within next 2 years.

But, we could potentially achieve that anyway, even without TDK/Ryan.

And more importantly I'm not convinced these moves help in 2029, 2030, 2031- when Nas will actually be prime, and where Nas should be focusing most.

 

[phantom13]

Agreed both can be true

But in 2026 he'll be thinking "I'm 23, who's going to achieve success over the next 5+ years"

He shouldn't be wowed by a couple of bottom end top 8 appearances like 2020 and 2023.

If I'm gazing into a crystal ball, genuine chance we achieve that within next 2 years.

But, we could potentially achieve that anyway, even without TDK/Ryan.

And more importantly I'm not convinced these moves help in 2029, 2030, 2031- when Nas will actually be prime, and where Nas should be focusing most.

So i agree on the bolded (noting TDK is coming anyway, thats done) but were also not going to ignore the trade period and nor should we.

I dont agree in the comment about selling success without results. If were not playing finals in 26/27 then Nas should leave, weve proven nothing. Results count for more than potential.

 

[MrFoster]

Agreed both can be true

But in 2026 he'll be thinking "I'm 23, who's going to achieve success over the next 5+ years"

He shouldn't be wowed by a couple of bottom end top 8 appearances like 2020 and 2023.

If I'm gazing into a crystal ball, genuine chance we achieve that within next 2 years.

But, we could potentially achieve that anyway, even without TDK/Ryan.

And more importantly I'm not convinced these moves help in 2029, 2030, 2031- when Nas will actually be prime, and where Nas should be focusing most.

Look at the bigger picture,

1. Whether Nas will stay or not in 2 years time, we as a club needs to improve and improve quickly, especially with Tassie looming in the background.
2. Building through the draft can only get you so far these days, just look at North Melbourne.
3. We have a war chest saved up and need to spend it eventuately either on our young players or FA/traded players.
4. Free agents for next year doesn't look that enticing.
5. It's difficult for a team like us to attract top talent, even though I criticise the 2019 recruitment drive that got us Howard, Ryder, Jones, Hill and Butler, we probably had to work our behinds off to get those players interested at the time and offer heaps more money of course.

So, we need to be bold this off season and we have the salary cap to make a play this off season. I for one is super excited to see the players we are linked with (My other team Arsenal football club also just signed 8 players this year in a best-off season ever, stars are aligning). As they say, if you don't improve every day, then you're going backwards. Because everyone else is improving. That's why we really need to improve and hopefully by a lot. Of course there are risks involved, but that's life. As long as we take calculated risks which I think we are, we'll just let time play out.

Go you mighty saints, it's not always easy supporting us, but when we have those moments (like the Melbourne win), it's truly magical!!!

 

[Curunir]

If Marshall gets traded I hope we keep Heath

 

[Minga]

As much as Nas is important to us, it’s still a team sport.

I see it quite simply as splitting our list up into 3 sections and giving each the tools they need to contend (and if all three are successful that means sustained competitiveness).

We have our senior players (Steele, Wilkie, Sincs, Marshall, Wood, Hill etc) = pretty strong a lot of AA calibre here.

Our middle agers (king, Higgins, TDK, stocker, soon to be Sharman and Hall, Clark etc) = not very strong as a group, but important components to the list.

And everyone younger than the NAS/Chito/Windy draft = the most promising group of youngsters we’ve had in 20 years.

Our future is in that third group, and they are also extremely impactful in our present almost which is great. No doubt the leader of that group is Nas who we are building around.

But the club isn’t going to disregard the King group or the Steele group, and so that’s the advantage of having a tilt in the next 2 seasons. Reassess from there. It’s just a reality of the gaps in our list, but it also has the fortunate effect of being able to have a tilt whilst we continue to develop our strongest core (nas group and below) and give the senior players another shot at finals.

You want to bring in players to supplement that vision without tipping the whole ruddy thing over. E.g. TDK is a much needed addition to our middle agers, and ruck continuity.

Who knows who else we bring in, I’m sure regardless it’ll be contentious but what’s important is that they won’t be the messiah. Look at everyone below nas’s age that whole group is who we develop in the next two seasons to show where this club is going.

 

[jimmytigs]

This is on

wouldnt have thought he would have been interested,but if the kid has a brain this is his moment to use it,

does he want to be wearing a suit on grand final day soon and be patting newcombe day and petracca on the back?or does he want to be wearing a red white and black uniform as one of the 23?

along with a good chance to be playing with his brother

starts to make a bit of sense

 

[chris_h_11]

Just saw a Hawks supporter suggest MacKenzie for Phillipou with a late pick swap

I am this close to getting my internet cancelled until after October

 

[Hayes4PM]

Sooo how many new players are we bringing in today?

 

[Broski]

Wtf has happened to Kane Kornes? At the 8 min mark he's stated if Max King can play 20 games next year we're playing finals

First Up: Why Blues should trade Walsh, star Demon who has 'let his club down'

Sarah Olle and Kane Cornes unpack the big issues from the round of footy

www.afl.com.au

He's planting the seeds early. "Saints surely couldn't miss finals with all of these new toys!"

If we look shaky in the early stages of the year, then the mouth breather will be licking his lips with all the content he will be provided lol.

 

[Mystifly]

If Steele does leave, I nominate Isaac Keeler to take the N° 9 locker. How awesome would it be to to see a tall strapping 9 making the F50 his arena again?

All aboard the K-Train!

I (and a lot of others) already get confused when we see Keeler and think Wanganeen-Milera (vice versa) due to #17. I don't think #9 would help that much when trying to tell from a distance/angle would be nice having 7, 8 & 9 as first nations players though, maybe flyin Ryan to #3 and have 2, 3 & 4 as well!

 

[Hayes4PM]

Just saw a Hawks supporter suggest MacKenzie for Phillipou with a late pick swap

I am this close to getting my internet cancelled until after October

That’s not that crazy really. Both from the same draft and similar position in the draft, both shown a lot of potential but recently interrupted with injury.

I’d rather keep Pou, but if we’re the club chasing McKenzie, not unfair for Hawks to ask for a bit.

 

[True Believer]

As much as Nas is important to us, it’s still a team sport.

I see it quite simply as splitting our list up into 3 sections and giving each the tools they need to contend (and if all three are successful that means sustained competitiveness).

We have our senior players (Steele, Wilkie, Sincs, Marshall, Wood, Hill etc) = pretty strong a lot of AA calibre here.

Our middle agers (king, Higgins, TDK, stocker, soon to be Sharman and Hall, Clark etc) = not very strong as a group, but important components to the list.

And everyone younger than the NAS/Chito/Windy draft = the most promising group of youngsters we’ve had in 20 years.

Our future is in that third group, and they are also extremely impactful in our present almost which is great. No doubt the leader of that group is Nas who we are building around.

But the club isn’t going to disregard the King group or the Steele group, and so that’s the advantage of having a tilt in the next 2 seasons. Reassess from there. It’s just a reality of the gaps in our list, but it also has the fortunate effect of being able to have a tilt whilst we continue to develop our strongest core (nas group and below) and give the senior players another shot at finals.

You want to bring in players to supplement that vision without tipping the whole ruddy thing over. E.g. TDK is a much needed addition to our middle agers, and ruck continuity.

Who knows who else we bring in, I’m sure regardless it’ll be contentious but what’s important is that they won’t be the messiah. Look at everyone below nas’s age that whole group is who we develop in the next two seasons to show where this club is going.

That's a great post and shows that we are paying the price for previous poor list management. It's no secret that the middle bracket for us is hollowed out because poor drafting has meant we are not organically creating our own "mid-aged" list component (mid-aged in football terms).....

That's why we need to continue to draft well, as we need to continue to feed new recruits into the top of the funnel. If your recruiting is halfway any good, those recruits eventually become your mid-aged bracket. If we have assessed this years draft as shallow and a bit of a non-event, I am not too fussed if our participation is minimal, as long as this year is an aberration and we are back into drafting in next years stronger draft pool.

 

[Anythings_sipposible]

I'm all for this top up. We've got the young core, and we will keep adding to with first rounders (either this year, next, or ideally both). That's where this is different to 2019. We're adding developed talent onto a really good young brigade with an spread of talent across positions, we have a good recruiting team that can identify talent late, and it looks like we'll still bring in high quality young players to make sure we don't stagnate.
My ideal situation:

TDK via free agency (done)
JSOS via free agency
Flanders for 7 with a future second coming back. Alternatively, Flanders for a future first
Ryan for a future second.
Sign Windy
If the CMac stuff is true: Marshall to Geelong, Geelong pick to Hawthorn, CMac to us. Keep Heath
If the CMac stuff isn't true: keep Marshall, trade Heath for a future 3rd.

Go in to next year with a best 23 of

HB Wilkie Howard JSOS

HBF Sinclair Tauru Flanders

C Windhager Phillipou Wilson

HFF Owens Sharman Hall

FF Ryan King Higgins

Foll TDK NWM Garcia

INT Macrae Steele Hill Wood/CMac Marshall/Keeler ( pending trades on the last two)

That's the best team we've had on paper since 2011/2012. One super star in Nas. 4 more potential super stars in King, Phillipou, Tauru and TDK. High quality, AA potential players in Wilkie, Sinclair, Flanders and Higgins. And then a good mix of experience and young talent.

Let's go!!

 

[Sully111]

Who do Flanders and Mackenzie push out of our midfield?

That's the question for me.

Garcia? No

Pou? hope not

Box? Shame

Trading Steele makes the most sense

 

[Saintbloke]

That’s not that crazy really. Both from the same draft and similar position in the draft, both shown a lot of potential but recently interrupted with injury.

I’d rather keep Pou, but if we’re the club chasing McKenzie, not unfair for Hawks to ask for a bit.

I remember watching McKenzie a few years back and wishing that we had him- class young midfielder, but don't know what happened to his development..injuries ??

 

[Joffaboy]

He looked really good this year but resilience looking like a problem now. His best looks elite but if he can't get on the park he's no good.

I will bow to your greater judgement as I haven't watched Hawthorn all that often and when I have he looked pretty meh to me

 

[BrutThough]

Sooo how many new players are we bringing in today?

The Heeney interest should be made public soon.

 

[bergholt]

(My other team Arsenal football club also just signed 8 players this year in a best-off season ever, stars are aligning)

I want to believe but if we lose at Anfield this weekend I won't be feeling so positive!

 

[kyrgios]

I'm all for this top up. We've got the young core, and we will keep adding to with first rounders (either this year, next, or ideally both). That's where this is different to 2019. We're adding developed talent onto a really good young brigade with an spread of talent across positions, we have a good recruiting team that can identify talent late, and it looks like we'll still bring in high quality young players to make sure we don't stagnate.
My ideal situation:

TDK via free agency (done)
JSOS via free agency
Flanders for 7 with a future second coming back. Alternatively, Flanders for a future first
Ryan for a future second.
Sign Windy
If the CMac stuff is true: Marshall to Geelong, Geelong pick to Hawthorn, CMac to us. Keep Heath
If the CMac stuff isn't true: keep Marshall, trade Heath for a future 3rd.

Go in to next year with a best 23 of

HB Wilkie Howard JSOS

HBF Sinclair Tauru Flanders

C Windhager Phillipou Wilson

HFF Owens Sharman Hall

FF Ryan King Higgins

Foll TDK NWM Garcia

INT Macrae Steele Hill Wood/CMac Marshall/Keeler ( pending trades on the last two)

That's the best team we've had on paper since 2011/2012. One super star in Nas. 4 more potential super stars in King, Phillipou, Tauru and TDK. High quality, AA potential players in Wilkie, Sinclair, Flanders and Higgins. And then a good mix of experience and young talent.

Let's go!!

wowiiee... Might as well give us the 2026 Flag now.

 

[akaifu]

Who do Flanders and Mackenzie push out of our midfield?

That's the question for me.

Garcia? No

Pou? hope not

Box? Shame

Trading Steele makes the most sense

Given the below diagram (centre bounce attendances in 2025) I'd assume our preferred setup would be something like:

TDK ~65%
Row/Dodson ~35%

NWM ~60%
Flanders/Cmack ~60%
Macrae ~50%
Garcia ~50%
Pou ~40%
Other ~40%

If our midfield is finals-level, I don't think Windy fits unless he's tagging. Should be on a wing imo

 

[Anythings_sipposible]

wowiiee... Might as well give us the 2026 Flag now.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but I'm enough of a nuffie to take you at face value