List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part V

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 5

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
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[billings2paddy]

Loving how salty they are but frustrated that Mackie isn't being held accountable at all.

He can literally only get deals done for free agents and uncontracted players. The uncontracted players issue is only because he leaves it til the last minute as a take it or leave it option.

Steele trade is fine, I was surprised at the pick and expected better. But out of him and Marshall, Steele had the bigger contract and was about to be overtaken by the U24 midfielders.

The media are being subtly critical of us but mainly still giving us top ratings. Its a strange outlook, regular programming is to be critical of us so they seem torn.

Mackie is a one trick pony and SOS and RTB saw straight through it
Mackie got SOS'd
SOS 1
Mackie -1

 

[phantom13]

We got Membrey from Sydney for exactly that reason - Adam Goodes decided to play another year hence Sydney decided to let Tim walk. Although its a tough balance to find between playing kids and having sufficient experience around them. You can garuantee if Steele was on 500k per year he would be still on the list. His big contract had become too much to carry given his output hence the trade result.

Barrett is giving it to the club again now over Jack Steele. My god that guy is short sighted. We did exactly what Carlton did with Curnow, Melbourne did with Petracca and Oliver and WCE did with Ryan. Its about reseting your list and moving on big contracts locked in on aging players to clubs who have need for that particularly player.

I had a Richmond supporting mate say to me he felt sorry for Marshall because he didnt get his requested trade yesterday. The media have a lot to answer for in the opinions some supporters form. I dont know how the club address Purples (Barrett's) persistent attacks, but something needs to be done as his constant put downs are damaging our brand!

I mean **** Barret that weasel headed campaigner can jog on BUT its worth noting that every player on that list bar Oliver (whos off field issues would make Chopper Read blush) netted more return than Steele did so i do think some degree of criticism is probably valid (noting that criticism wouldnt account for whatever discussion was had between Jack and the club).

The contract thing is the issue to me, if were still covering any of his salary then taking such a shit return isnt the go IMO.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

The move was entirely Steele's choice. He was told he would have limited opportunities at St Kilda but Melbourne is offering a key midfield role and an extra year. It is a no-brainer to take the Melbourne offer.

Good points. And rather than “we are paying him to play elsewhere”, Melbourne are probably still paying him, say, $800k. (I made that up, I don’t know what the amount is). Still a lot if he continues to trend downwards.

 

[akaifu]

I actually think some of the speculative ones might be where some of the better players come from this year. Not much standout talent to me but a few late ones look like they could be guns if they develop right.

Plenty of future guns in the late first/second round range

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Total opposite to the Geelong model where everyone accepts less to say and most players are paid in the same pay band.

Except Geelong have perfected the under the counter and 3rd party payments to their elite players for sometime. Dont get sold on their salary cap management, they are dodgy bastards and have been rorting the systems for years.

 

[phantom13]

One of Dilena’s more interesting comments was how the club has closely observed and is looking to emulate a US sports model of concentrating cash on the elite talent on the list, meaning paying very modest amounts to the role players and depth players.

Will be interesting to see the implications. Will this place us in a stronger position to target big fish?
Will it make it harder for us to recruit? Or retain depth players?

You end up being a reliant on success to sustain.

Some guys take less to stay at a successful club or take less to come to a successful club but you maintain the elite core and replace it and back the system to develop the role players into good ones who then eventually leave for more money (Dan Rioli for example).

Penrith in the NRL managed a 4 peat like this losing rep and international guys every year but keeping its best 3 players and refreshing the guys who left. They also just made a prelim and only JUST got beat the entual premiers.

If you get the success and then the cycle right it can be really effective.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Hill and wood contracted until 2027 aren’t they?

Dow Carroll Howard Butler Keeler Said O’Connell Stocker (only takes 1 year deals so has to be included) all under pressure for me.

Dodson, Wilson & Caminiti out of contract and ones to watch now that there is genuine depth and competition for spots.

Marshall revisit a trade again?

I really admire Stocker for this.
He knows where he is now, and where he has been and doesn’t want to milk the club in the event he needs to stop playing.
Furthermore, just backs himself in to get the deal again the following year.

 

[phantom13]

Except Geelong have perfected the under the counter and 3rd party payments to their elite players for sometime. Dont get sold on their salary cap management, they are dodgy bastards and have been rorting the systems for years.

If theyve been audited and copped a 30K fine for their rorting then id say theyve perfected it.

Tip toe the lines for every advantage you can get

 

[Saintbloke]

I reckon Owens consistently starts off a season well, then drops off a bit.
He's ultra combative, so maybe that's the reason.

One player who I think really needs to work on consistency over four quarters, but it has been a problem with a few of our players. I would like to see him just concentrate on running over summer with a good coach

 

[Diehard Saint]

Hill and wood contracted until 2027 aren’t they?

Dow Carroll Howard Butler Keeler Said O’Connell Stocker (only takes 1 year deals so has to be included) all under pressure for me.

Dodson, Wilson & Caminiti out of contract and ones to watch now that there is genuine depth and competition for spots.

Marshall revisit a trade again?

Like Caminiti but need to get the first two signed ASAP.

 

[CursingFijian]

My issue is the backhanded implication that we just pushed him out of the club.

I feel like the club have handled this situation respectfully yet the need for the likes of Ralph and Purple to try to twist everything is putrid.

Agree.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I hate to say it but I tend to agree with him. There is no doubt they will dip as a result of the loss of talent, but I think they have made the calls to rebound quickly. They have shown they cant win it with the list they had and were always losing the big 3 so they have done the best they could in the circumstances.

They will get garuanteed picks in the draft - Harry Dean & Jack Ison plus Im guessing they will look for another key forward and are well positioned in next years draft. Cody Walker will go close to being the best player in the 2026 draft. Plus they will get Jagga Smith, Newman, Cerra, McGovern and others back next year.

The addition of Hayward, Florent, Ainsworth, Chesser (all quick) and Reidy (back up ruckman) will all add something. If Ainsworth and Hayward add 3 goals a game that nearly covers the loss of Curnow. Florent will fill the running half back role and Chesser a wing or an outside mid role.

You made very good points then destroyed it by mentioning McGovern as a positive in.

If Carlton keep him than its great news for every Carlsum hating supporter.

 

[St Neil]

Except Geelong have perfected the under the counter and 3rd party payments to their elite players for sometime. Dont get sold on their salary cap management, they are dodgy bastards and have been rorting the systems for years.

Relevant point.

They are known cheaters.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

I really admire Stocker for this.
He knows where he is now, and where he has been and doesn’t want to milk the club in the event he needs to stop playing.
Furthermore, just backs himself in to get the deal again the following year.

Stocker has been abit lucky in that we haven't recruited a small lock-down defender in a long while.

 

[CursingFijian]

Except Geelong have perfected the under the counter and 3rd party payments to their elite players for sometime. Dont get sold on their salary cap management, they are dodgy bastards and have been rorting the systems for years.

Relevant point.

They are known cheaters.

I have heard that they are scrambling hard after having scheduled a one week pre-season camp at Rowan Marshall's farm.

 

[Silkie]

Stocker has been abit lucky in that we haven't recruited a small lock-down defender in a long while.

I really like Stocker and hope he finds a way to take over Jimmy's role long term. The kind of guy who changes the feel of a game through a big hit or tackle. Seems like a great guy off field as well.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Except Geelong have perfected the under the counter and 3rd party payments to their elite players for sometime. Dont get sold on their salary cap management, they are dodgy bastards and have been rorting the systems for years.

We probably had two main choices.
1. Keep going along and hope to build through the draft, pay more to who was already there along the way.

2. Or almost a reset like here. Completely tight on cap usage, offer OTT amounts to a gun, get a few on board, piss a few off, make some hard calls, piss the media off, strengthen the list but use up the cap, hope that we are better and some wins breeds more wins and attracts more players in the future but at more “normal” $ contracts. Get out of the cycle of not being able to attract decent players without offering them the world. While never being a big club, hope to be one that attracts players more easily, especially FAs, which are complete game changers because you can continue to invest in picks.

That’s why I was keen to create the flex for next year. Whether we have some or we are tight for a year or two who knows. But another very good player while still going to the draft next year would keep the momentum going and not being a 2019 style one and done.

Who knows which was the better way to go. At least for now, I’m happy we have tried to have a crack to get away from being an also ran.

 

[Broski]

So unlike Fox and SEN who have talking heads giving their "gut feel" on the trade period, ABC Sport have sensibly based their analysis on data. I would recommend reading this article, no bias whatsoever, just pure data. I don't agree with some of the calls, but the analysis is sound

Which team 'won' the AFL trade period — and does free agency need a fix?

It was one of the more chaotic AFL trade periods on record as picks and players moved all over the place — but who came out ahead the most?

www.abc.net.au

View attachment 2459523View attachment 2459520

I am going to be biased, because I work for the ABC Sport team, but very happy to see the article getting some love, instead of the opiniated dross that is pushed out by Fox and other outlets.

The ABC Sports Editor, James Coventry (my boss), has published a few books that touch on analytics, which I am sure some posters have seen or possibly read.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

I really like Stocker and hope he finds a way to take over Jimmy's role long term. The kind of guy who changes the feel of a game through a big hit or tackle. Seems like a great guy off field as well.

That's his 1 weapon, team lifting big hits
Too slow to mind the oppo. smaller damaging forwards

 

[Diehard Saint]

One player who I think really needs to work on consistency over four quarters, but it has been a problem with a few of our players. I would like to see him just concentrate on running over summer with a good coach

And goal kicking. Set shots especially

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Steele’s departure is brutal for sure. But there’s lots of factors at play here.

The continued tweaking of AFL rules means that every player’s impact can rise or fall dramatically.

The last touch rule next year will make transition even faster again, I think.

The extended bench will mean reduced minutes for high rotation players, which means fatigue should be a marginally smaller factor between winning and losing.

Sustained pace out of the middle and on transition is going to become even more important both offensively and defensively.

I think it might be why this years draft class is poorly rated too. They look like a pretty slow bunch comparatively. A few midfielders going to have to reinvent themselves as defensive half backs to eke out a career.

Jack has been a loyal servant to the club. But his strongest capacities are well and truly covered by Macrae. And his lack of pace means he really doesn’t fit RTB’s vision for the midfield.

It’s not the Saints fault if that is where the game is heading.

Yeah, good points. I was thinking about the interchange the other night. It may mean you can carry one guy who is really worth it for less minutes. Or two rucks. But, in turn, you’ll need a huge collection of runners to counter that.

It will be interesting to see which way coaches take this - does two rucks become the norm for a while or does it mean the extra player is yet another runner and teams will just go hell for leather for 120 mins.

 

[Minga]

That's his 1 weapon, team lifting big hits
Too slow to mind the oppo. smaller damaging forwards

Open question to the forum:

Who is the best mid/small defender in the league, whose role mainly is primarily to play on damaging small forwards?

Stocker isn’t a unicorn player that’s for sure, but I think he’s pretty solid cover in the position.

Ben Paton back in the day looked really good in that role, I seem to remember a stretch of games where he was pocketing players like Toby Greene, and then got injured by Roughead and career over.

Jimmy Webster was fairly underrated in a position that doesn’t get plaudits, had a good mix of agility and toughness.

IMO our ideal backline has:

• A fullback for big forwards (e.g. Howard/Hammer)
• Two versatile intercepting defenders (e.g. Wilkie/JSOS)
• Two attacking half back flanks (e.g. Sinclair, Hastie)
• And a small lockdown defender (e.g. Stocker, O’Connell?)

So basically a full back tall for the best opposing tall and a full back small for the best opposing small. Then four intercepting and rebounding players who make up the rest of the defensive effort.

 

[akaifu]

Open question to the forum:

Who is the best mid/small defender in the league, whose role mainly is primarily to play on damaging small forwards?

Stocker isn’t a unicorn player that’s for sure, but I think he’s pretty solid cover in the position.

Ben Paton back in the day looked really good in that role, I seem to remember a stretch of games where he was pocketing players like Toby Greene, and then got injured by Roughead and career over.

Jimmy Webster was fairly underrated in a position that doesn’t get plaudits, had a good mix of agility and toughness.

IMO our ideal backline has:

• A fullback for big forwards (e.g. Howard/Hammer)
• Two versatile intercepting defenders (e.g. Wilkie/JSOS)
• Two attacking half back flanks (e.g. Sinclair, Hastie)
• And a small lockdown defender (e.g. Stocker, O’Connell?)

So basically a full back tall for the best opposing tall and a full back small for the best opposing small. Then four intercepting and rebounding players who make up the rest of the defensive effort.

Starcevich, Idun, Michalanney

Not Battle

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

Zero Hanger suggesting that Darcy Wilson could leave for Essendon or North.Melb. in 2027.
Would seriously hope that he sees us as a better fit than those two.

 

[Saint Kidding]

Zero Hanger suggesting that Darcy Wilson could leave for Essendon or North.Melb. in 2027.
Would seriously hope that he sees us as a better fit than those two.

For some reason I have the idea that he was a North supporter growing up. Not sure where that comes from though.

Edit: Related to Mick Nolan.