List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[ScrappyDo]

Sorry folks, but how many times do we take a hasbeen or a spud to fill a hole only to wish we'd played a kid instead. We've got Hammer, Ari, Barrat Keeler, plus some experience in Cordy.
These guys need game time too.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Sorry folks, but how many times do we take a hasbeen or a spud to fill a hole only to with we'd played a kid instead. We've got Hammer, Ari, Barrat Keeler, plus some experience in Cordy.
These guys need game time too.

100%.

Play Caminiti in defence and Im sure he wont let us down. He may take a few games to learn the defensive instincts but in the long term he will be a much better option than others. That will open up a spot forward to use Keeler and get games into Isaac who is a much more natural forward. By that time hopefully Tuaru is back to playing and if Keeler has a dip in form bring in the Viking.

Barrat is young but everything written about him mentioned his maturity, so if he is up to it give him the games. It is not ideal but at least we know the kid has a decent future in the game.

I would have to see a huge improvement in Shoenmaker's physicallity and defensive efforts before Id back him in as a key defender, however play him as a flanker in the Bonner mould and use his kicking. Back him to peel off and support the likes of Barrat and Caminiti in the air. Although I think Arie might be battling with Hastie for the same position.

Some how the club seems to have a cluster (too many) half back flankers again, how they again seem to have that position over represented is a modern day phenomenon. Is it any wonder we over looked Hofmann, but I think that decision may come back to bite us in the future. Hofmanns ability in the air and capacity to play on much taller opponents is akin to Wilkie and I think he will have a very good career at Geelong.

How we can end up with so many flankers and not enough key positional players, frustrates the beejesus out me. Hopefully the club have a plan to turn that around at seasons end.

Having said the above I do think RTB will go with the experience of Cordy at full back. As much as I think he is a well below par AFL player Lyon does like the older heads in defence.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Sorry folks, but how many times do we take a hasbeen or a spud to fill a hole only to wish we'd played a kid instead. We've got Hammer, Ari, Barrat Keeler, plus some experience in Cordy.
These guys need game time too.

Have been thinking this myself. Unless we develop our own, we’re going to have to keep plugging holes with someone who is simply not up to it (which we’ve been doing for the best part of 15 years)

 

[ScrappyDo]

100%.

Play Caminiti in defence and Im sure he wont let us down. He may take a few games to learn the defensive instincts but in the long term he will be a much better option than others. That will open up a spot forward to use Keeler and get games into Isaac who is a much more natural forward. By that time hopefully Tuaru is back to playing and if Keeler has a dip in form bring in the Viking.

Barrat is young but everything written about him mentioned his maturity, so if he is up to it give him the games. It is not ideal but at least we know the kid has a decent future in the game.

I would have to see a huge improvement in Shoenmaker's physicallity and defensive efforts before Id back him in as a key defender, however play him as a flanker in the Bonner mould and use his kicking. Back him to peel off and support the likes of Barrat and Caminiti in the air. Although I think Arie might be battling with Hastie for the same position.

Some how the club seems to have a cluster (too many) half back flankers again, how they again seem to have that position over represented is a modern day phenomenon. Is it any wonder we over looked Hofmann, but I think that decision may come back to bite us in the future. Hofmanns ability in the air and capacity to play on much taller opponents is akin to Wilkie and I think he will have a very good career at Geelong.

How we can end up with so many flankers and not enough key positional players, frustrates the beejesus out me. Hopefully the club have a plan to turn that around at seasons end.

Having said the above I do think RTB will go with the experience of Cordy at full back. As much as I think he is a well below par AFL player Lyon does like the older heads in defence.

Honestly l don't see those issues at all, it's just that HBF is an easy place to develop players and an easy hole to fill for a midfielder if he can't get a gig in the midfield.
Trav and Hastie are really the only one's we've spent any real capital in gaining. Ari, Gus and Irish were all free hits, 2 of which are cat B anyway. And when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel you're just looking at guys who migh have a chance and not positional needs.
Nor do l think we're lacking in KPP's. Problem is too many KPD draft prospects haven't made is so we've been stuck in that rut for years. I expect the club has been trying to find one but without success.
In the club's environment where so many factors are outside their control and we're treated by the industry like a red headed step child, not every failure rests with the current admin.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Honestly l don't see those issues at all, it's just that HBF is an easy place to develop players and an easy hole to fill for a midfielder if he can't get a gig in the midfield.
Trav and Hastie are really the only one's we've spent any real capital in gaining. Ari, Gus and Irish were all free hits, 2 of which are cat B anyway. And when you're scraping the bottom of the barrel you're just looking at guys who migh have a chance and not positional needs.
Nor do l think we're lacking in KPP's. Problem is too many KPD draft prospects haven't made is so we've been stuck in that rut for years. I expect the club has been trying to find one but without success.
In the club's environment where so many factors are outside their control and we're treated by the industry like a red headed step child, not every failure rests with the current admin.

Very true re our drafting of KPD has been very poor for a lot of years. Hopefully we finally found some very good kids in Tauru and Barrat. I would have loved to have also taken Noah Mraz (198cms) at the draft but I guess we cant have everything.

I was hopeful Van Es might have been our answer, but he broke his leg/ankle and with the complications couldnt get going. Be interested to see if WCE offer him a position as they also have concerns re his kicking. I also thought Oscar Adams had something, but the club thought otherwise. Its interesting he played every game for Glenelg in their flag win last year, but wasnt mentioned as an AFL recruiting option. Oscar Clavarino who is now 25yo is another who has made a home in the SANFL and played in a strong South Adelaide side without making it back to the AFL. Hugh Goddard who was another early pick but had his career wrecked by injury. I think as much as our recruiting was an issue our previous lack of a player development system hurt just as much.

Even our trading for KPD has been sketchy as far back as Luke Penny who was a really good player, but the Dogs knew he had knee issues which eventually ended his career prematurely. Then we had Nathan Bown (servicable) & Carlisle who had the potential to be an exceptional player but was coached by spuds in poor teams. Then we went with Logan Austin who didnt work out for whatever reason.

Im still baffled as to why Battle left, there must have been something occur with him and the club personnel that turned him away. Some have said his wife had a big pull in the decision, perhaps she did but something occurred to make them lose trust/faith in the Saints.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Very true re our drafting of KPD has been very poor for a lot of years. Hopefully we finally found some very good kids in Tauru and Barrat. I would have loved to have also taken Noah Mraz (198cms) at the draft but I guess we cant have everything.

I was hopeful Van Es might have been our answer, but he broke his leg/ankle and with the complications couldnt get going. Be interested to see if WCE offer him a position as they also have concerns re his kicking. I also thought Oscar Adams had something, but the club thought otherwise. Its interesting he played every game for Glenelg in their flag win last year, but wasnt mentioned as an AFL recruiting option. Oscar Clavarino who is now 25yo is another who has made a home in the SANFL and played in a strong South Adelaide side without making it back to the AFL. Hugh Goddard who was another early pick but had his career wrecked by injury. I think as much as our recruiting was an issue our previous lack of a player development system hurt just as much.

Even our trading for KPD has been sketchy as far back as Luke Penny who was a really good player, but the Dogs knew he had knee issues which eventually ended his career prematurely. Then we had Nathan Bown (servicable) & Carlisle who had the potential to be an exceptional player but was coached by spuds in poor teams. Then we went with Logan Austin who didnt work out for whatever reason.

Im still baffled as to why Battle left, there must have been something occur with him and the club personnel that turned him away. Some have said his wife had a big pull in the decision, perhaps she did but something occurred to make them lose trust/faith in the Saints.

The Hawks had been after Battle for years, not just 2024. Perhaps there was a small crack in trust that the Hawks were able to exploit and no doubt his Mrs played a major hand in it too.
I think it just came down to "personal reasons" and that's the end of it.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

100%.

Play Caminiti in defence and Im sure he wont let us down. He may take a few games to learn the defensive instincts but in the long term he will be a much better option than others. That will open up a spot forward to use Keeler and get games into Isaac who is a much more natural forward. By that time hopefully Tuaru is back to playing and if Keeler has a dip in form bring in the Viking.

Barrat is young but everything written about him mentioned his maturity, so if he is up to it give him the games. It is not ideal but at least we know the kid has a decent future in the game.

I would have to see a huge improvement in Shoenmaker's physicallity and defensive efforts before Id back him in as a key defender, however play him as a flanker in the Bonner mould and use his kicking. Back him to peel off and support the likes of Barrat and Caminiti in the air. Although I think Arie might be battling with Hastie for the same position.

Some how the club seems to have a cluster (too many) half back flankers again, how they again seem to have that position over represented is a modern day phenomenon. Is it any wonder we over looked Hofmann, but I think that decision may come back to bite us in the future. Hofmanns ability in the air and capacity to play on much taller opponents is akin to Wilkie and I think he will have a very good career at Geelong.

How we can end up with so many flankers and not enough key positional players, frustrates the beejesus out me. Hopefully the club have a plan to turn that around at seasons end.

Having said the above I do think RTB will go with the experience of Cordy at full back. As much as I think he is a well below par AFL player Lyon does like the older heads in defence.

As you say, Lyon will rely on Cordy. Big problem!!!
I've named Caminiti & Keeler as my key-backs in my round 1 team now. But that's purely based on their potentiality. Not an ideal solution.
Sam Durdin, Eathan Phillips or Adam Tomlinson are key-backs, that's it & are available.

 

[Saintscomemarchingin]

,Player., Sorry folks, but how many times do we take a hasbeen or a spud to fill a hole only to wish we'd played a kid instead. We've got Hammer, Ari, Barrat Keeler, plus some experience in Cordy.s
These guys need game time too,

Hammer 22 y.o, personally think he could be a natural key back. But asking alot of him, seeing as he's only played 1/2 a game in a key back position. Lyon did like him there though.

Keeler 21 y.o, played as a key back in the Vfl for the 1st half of last season. Showed some strength in the air. But, asking alot of him to step up to the Afl & fill that hole/role.

Barrat, may look like a 26 y.o, but is actually only just 18y.o. How many 18 y.o key-backs play in their 1st season. Alot to ask of & depend on.

Schoenmaker, big enough body to play key-back, but more of an outside player at this stage.

Tauru, recovering from a back injury, would take an easy does it approach with him. May play some Afl games later in the year.

Cordy- filled the key position role well in 2023 with Howard missing. Had a stinker of a season in 2024. I am worried we have to rely on him, as an experienced player.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

Listening to Cornes & King discussing the lack of control clubs have in managing their lists and the inbalance in power held with player managers and players. They are of the opinion that clubs could rebound quicker if they were allowed to trade players without their consent, as a business asset. I understand what they are suggesting but I dont see those US models working here.

A lot of the sporting franchises in the US are privately owned so they are run like a private company. The NBA example Cornes raised was Dallas trading Doncic one of the best players in the comp, basically because he was due a huge pay raise the following season. Doncic will miss out on about 200 million as a result which is huge money and you can see why owners pull these levers.

Do we want that in our competitions - I dont think so! I think the average player in the AFL still dreams of playing for one club their entire career. But gees it would be nice half way through a season saying if we could pick up an ace midfielder or key defender we are a chance of going all the way.

 

[The Punter]

Listening to Cornes & King discussing the lack of control clubs have in managing their lists and the inbalance in power held with player managers and players. They are of the opinion that clubs could rebound quicker if they were allowed to trade players without their consent, as a business asset. I understand what they are suggesting but I dont see those US models working here.

A lot of the sporting franchises in the US are privately owned so they are run like a private company. The NBA example Cornes raised was Dallas trading Doncic one of the best players in the comp, basically because he was due a huge pay raise the following season. Doncic will miss out on about 200 million as a result which is huge money and you can see why owners pull these levers.

Do we want that in our competitions - I dont think so! I think the average player in the AFL still dreams of playing for one club their entire career. But gees it would be nice half way through a season saying if we could pick up an ace midfielder or key defender we are a chance of going all the way.

Without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of your analysis, if players were able to be traded against their will, it would be easier for clubs like St Kilda to access talent.

There are other glaring equality issues I want addressed before trading players against their will: abolition of the father-son rule, massive minimisation of northern academies (and abolition of everyone else's), significantly higher player salaries, earlier free agency rights. Put all those together and you get closer to players making contract decisions about money alone, and our cash is the same colour as everyone else's. If players don't make contract decisions primarily about money, the salary cap can't do what it is meant to do: act as a de facto talent cap.

 

[sammm]

Without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with any of your analysis, if players were able to be traded against their will, it would be easier for clubs like St Kilda to access talent.

There are other glaring equality issues I want addressed before trading players against their will: abolition of the father-son rule, massive minimisation of northern academies (and abolition of everyone else's), significantly higher player salaries, earlier free agency rights. Put all those together and you get closer to players making contract decisions about money alone, and our cash is the same colour as everyone else's. If players don't make contract decisions primarily about money, the salary cap can't do what it is meant to do: act as a de facto talent cap.

and then we all would be sooking becuase father son is gone, just when the Reiwoldt boys were about to come to our club. lol

Let us wait until we get some good father sons, then get rid of it. lol

 

[The Punter]

and then we all would be sooking becuase father son is gone, just when the Reiwoldt boys were about to come to our club. lol

Let us wait until we get some good father sons, then get rid of it. lol

I would not be sooking. It's a terrible rule.

 

[SG34]

I have made three unsuccessful enquiries here as to the viability of Caminiti as a key back, all unsuccessful.

Nobody seems to know what traits he has and how they work as a key backman.

I would guess, and remember I am an u/15 c’s back pocket / part-time orange boy who only learnt to play in my late 20s out the back of a shed, I would guess that,

1) burst speed
2) lateral movement and wrestling skills like a ruckman
3) long reach
4) read the play ability
5) being able to stay engaged and not ‘drift off’ or ‘space out’ for long quarters

Are essentials.

Mind you, we haven’t really established whether he is a winning key forward either.

But ask yourself, which do you see him in more naturally?

I see him as a key forward, like a Sav/Anthony Rocca type.

But so far, our forward line has been terribly makeshift and/or dysfunctional in Caminiti’s tenure at the club, and he’s been a bull in a China shop down there, not really synchronized with the rest..in so far as we might say, it’s a ‘system’.

So I am trying to say, why Caminiti ?

 

[Cro19]

Listening to Cornes & King discussing the lack of control clubs have in managing their lists and the inbalance in power held with player managers and players. They are of the opinion that clubs could rebound quicker if they were allowed to trade players without their consent, as a business asset. I understand what they are suggesting but I dont see those US models working here.

A lot of the sporting franchises in the US are privately owned so they are run like a private company. The NBA example Cornes raised was Dallas trading Doncic one of the best players in the comp, basically because he was due a huge pay raise the following season. Doncic will miss out on about 200 million as a result which is huge money and you can see why owners pull these levers.

Do we want that in our competitions - I dont think so! I think the average player in the AFL still dreams of playing for one club their entire career. But gees it would be nice half way through a season saying if we could pick up an ace midfielder or key defender we are a chance of going all the way.

I can't see it happening with the salaries as there. Basically every NBA player makes at least a million dollars and if your career in the NBA fails you'll still get paid a good salary in Europe, Australia, Asia etc. The average AFL career doesn't last that long and there's no security blanket of a lesser league paying good money. AFLPA would never allow players to get shot around the country like that

 

[Remboy]

I have made three unsuccessful enquiries here as to the viability of Caminiti as a key back, all unsuccessful.

Nobody seems to know what traits he has and how they work as a key backman.

I would guess, and remember I am an u/15 c’s back pocket / part-time orange boy who only learnt to play in my late 20s out the back of a shed, I would guess that,

1) burst speed
2) lateral movement and wrestling skills like a ruckman
3) long reach
4) read the play ability
5) being able to stay engaged and not ‘drift off’ or ‘space out’ for long quarters

Are essentials.

Mind you, we haven’t really established whether he is a winning key forward either.

But ask yourself, which do you see him in more naturally?

I see him as a key forward, like a Sav/Anthony Rocca type.

But so far, our forward line has been terribly makeshift and/or dysfunctional in Caminiti’s tenure at the club, and he’s been a bull in a China shop down there, not really synchronized with the rest..in so far as we might say, it’s a ‘system’.

So I am trying to say, why Caminiti ?

I don’t think it’s traits based, but just a lack of other options. Unless we go with Cordy and Barrett we need one of the tall forwards to play back. It won’t be King, unlikely to be Sharman, so that doesn’t leave many other options.

 

[SG34]

I don’t think it’s traits based, but just a lack of other options. Unless we go with Cordy and Barrett we need one of the tall forwards to play back. It won’t be King, unlikely to be Sharman, so that doesn’t leave many other options.

Then the ‘experiment’ continues. It might be a long season.

By the way, just by way of asking, why not Sharman?
Could he not be another Russell Morris? Shane Wakelin?

 

[BrutThough]

So I am trying to say, why Caminiti ?

For me, he was decent in the two games he played him back lat year. And out of our key forward options, I have him 4th in the pecking order plus rate Keeler higher than he probably warrants so moving Caminiti to the backline is a way to hypothetically give him more opportunity and can fill a desperate hole we have.

 

[SG34]

For me, he was decent in the two games he played him back lat year. And out of our key forward options, I have him 4th in the pecking order plus rate Keeler higher than he probably warrants so moving Caminiti to the backline is a way to hypothetically give him more opportunity and can fill a desperate hole we have.

Can you recall which Rounds hew played down back? Was the second half of the season, right?

Edit : Ok I found this one, Round 16, in our tragic loss to Port Adelaide at Marvell

“Up the other end, Callum Wilkie and, surprisingly, Anthony Caminiti were doing adequate jobs restricting the likes of Todd Marshall and Mitch Georgiades.”

R16 - Port Adelaide v St Kilda - The Mongrel Review - The Mongrel Punt

Winning on the road is never easy, and after three straight losses, this was going to be a tough one for Port, but they got over St Kilda

themongrelpunt.com

And this;

 

[Bill Crouse]

Can you recall which Rounds hew played down back? Was the second half of the season, right?

Edit : Ok I found this one, Round 16, in our tragic loss to Port Adelaide at Marvell

“Up the other end, Callum Wilkie and, surprisingly, Anthony Caminiti were doing adequate jobs restricting the likes of Todd Marshall and Mitch Georgiades.”

R16 - Port Adelaide v St Kilda - The Mongrel Review - The Mongrel Punt

Winning on the road is never easy, and after three straight losses, this was going to be a tough one for Port, but they got over St Kilda

themongrelpunt.com

The first Brisbane game was another.

 

[ScrappyDo]

For me, he was decent in the two games he played him back lat year. And out of our key forward options, I have him 4th in the pecking order plus rate Keeler higher than he probably warrants so moving Caminiti to the backline is a way to hypothetically give him more opportunity and can fill a desperate hole we have.

This is exactly it, and the obvious reality to boot.
The practical short term situation requires a big body and he's the best fit.
Longer term it also works to fill a big need in our list and provides opportunity for Keeler to make a move (if he can do it.)

 

[Remboy]

Then the ‘experiment’ continues. It might be a long season.

By the way, just by way of asking, why not Sharman?
Could he not be another Russell Morris? Shane Wakelin?

It’s not that he couldn’t do it but I thought at the end of last year he started producing consistently up forward. I don’t want to lose that.

 

[SG34]

It’s not that he couldn’t do it but I thought at the end of last year he started producing consistently up forward. I don’t want to lose that.

And he seems to be a nice accurate kick for goal too.

 

[SG34]

The first Brisbane game was another.

Thanks for this. I happened to find it a moment later too.lnot seeing your post. I like those marks. Very nice. And against big Joe!!

 

[Zzzed]

By the time we are ready to challenge, the guys below will be retired. We should seriously consider offers that nett us a top 20 pick. Especially if we don't play finals this year. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result....

31/32 this year - Webster, Hill, Wood
30/31 this year - Jones, Sinclair, Macrae, Marshall, Steele
29/30 this year - Howard, Wilkie

Trading champs for top 20 picks is a law of diminishing returns.

Rarely do the replacement picks live up to the quality of the players traded out, leaving not just a void in talent, but also stripping away valuable leadership and experience. Goddard, Dal Santo come to mind. This is what has kept us anchored to the bottom. It's the exact opposite philosophy of Geelong, and to a lesser degree Collingwood.

Agree that there is a cliff coming and that we need to capitalise on the ageing talent we have over the next 3 -5 years. Another problem we have is this continuing talent donut shape of our list. To make matters worse, we still lose players as they hit their prime middle years for more picks eg Battle, McEvoy - a problem exacerbated by our dreadful development which hopefully has been addressed. That explains why we are over subscribing with the likes of Dow, Carroll and bargain basement SSP players - looking for the next Mason Wood success strory, whilst the odds are they are more likely Dean Kent or Riley Bonner types who are never going to move the needle.

Smart trading in & poaching of premium talent eg Crouch, Macrae , and the elusive 'big fish' is closer to the solution. But until we can challenge regularly for finals it's easier said than done.

On SM-X820 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Geary Is GOAT]

We're offering TDK $1.7 million a year according to Sam Edmund