List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[Desperate saint]

Missed a lot of pre season so started behind the 8 ball and trying to catch up. Better player than he has shown this season - if he is 100% fit he is a top 4 ruckman. The only guy who has consistently had his number in the past 4 or 5 seasons is Gawn who is the benchmark.

Gawn is probably one of the best ruckman of all time -they dont grow on trees -Ro was in the conversation of AA last year -many thought he should have been in

 

[Atomboy]

Speaking of "ridiculous acts of self-sabotage", where will this end up ranking in St Kilda's sorry history, in 10 years time when we look back?

- Leaving Tasmania

- Moving to Seaford

- Ignoring Essendon people who said to keep away from Andrew Lovett, who ended up being charged with raping someone at a team mate's house

- Letting Ross Lyon walk away

- Letting Chris Pelchen have carte blanche over list management

- Picking McCartin over Petracca and Jack Billings over Bontempelli

- Signing banged-up Dan Hannebery whose Dad knew Simon Lethlean, (allegedly) without adequate medicals, who played 18 games in 4 years and (allegedly) loved the party life

- Trading Blake Acres and a top 10 pick for Brad Hill who became our highest paid player but never placed in our B&F

- Continually promoting Lethlean after he was kicked out of the AFL, despite lacking evidence of any acumen, and plenty of evidence to the contrary

- Signing a pair of 31 year olds to 3 year deals (Hill and Wood) despite minimal risk of losing them elsewhere

Where will TDK fit?

In 10 years someone might be writing another list like this.

It might include:

"Paying TDK double what he was worth, to fill a list hole that didn't need filling, reducing possibilities for signing midfielders we desperately needed, while losing Rowan Marshall over it- St Kilda's best ruck of the last 25 years"

Leaving Tasmania was the worst thing on this list for mine.

 

[Desperate saint]

Speaking of "ridiculous acts of self-sabotage", where will this end up ranking in St Kilda's sorry history, in 10 years time when we look back?

- Leaving Tasmania

- Moving to Seaford

- Ignoring Essendon people who said to keep away from Andrew Lovett, who ended up being charged with raping someone at a team mate's house

- Letting Ross Lyon walk away

- Letting Chris Pelchen have carte blanche over list management

- Picking McCartin over Petracca and Jack Billings over Bontempelli

- Signing banged-up Dan Hannebery whose Dad knew Simon Lethlean, (allegedly) without adequate medicals, who played 18 games in 4 years and (allegedly) loved the party life

- Trading Blake Acres and a top 10 pick for Brad Hill who became our highest paid player but never placed in our B&F

- Continually promoting Lethlean after he was kicked out of the AFL, despite lacking evidence of any acumen, and plenty of evidence to the contrary

- Signing a pair of 31 year olds to 3 year deals (Hill and Wood) despite minimal risk of losing them elsewhere

Where will TDK fit?

In 10 years someone might be writing another list like this.

It might include:

"Paying TDK double what he was worth, to fill a list hole that didn't need filling, reducing possibilities for signing midfielders we desperately needed, while losing Rowan Marshall over it- St Kilda's best ruck of the last 25 years"

nailed it

 

[stavro#4]

TDK has supposedly been offered 12.5 over 7 years, front-ended.

So average $1.78mil over 7 years and maybe $2mil next year.

Carlton's offer is $7.5mil over 7 years.

If St Kilda wasn't in the mix, how much would Carlton be offering?

Maybe $6 or $6.5mil over 7 years? Or similar yearly salary but a shorter deal?

St Kilda's offering double what he'd otherwise be getting.

All that extra money could instead be offered to a midfielder at some point over the next few years.

And as Ads734 said, it could be damaging for club culture. That could already be happening with this playing out in the media.

It's a ridiculous act of self-sabotage by St Kilda.

Speaking of "ridiculous acts of self-sabotage", where will this end up ranking in St Kilda's sorry history, in 10 years time when we look back?

- Leaving Tasmania

- Moving to Seaford

- Ignoring Essendon people who said to keep away from Andrew Lovett, who ended up being charged with raping someone at a team mate's house

- Letting Ross Lyon walk away

- Letting Chris Pelchen have carte blanche over list management

- Picking McCartin over Petracca and Jack Billings over Bontempelli

- Signing banged-up Dan Hannebery whose Dad knew Simon Lethlean, (allegedly) without adequate medicals, who played 18 games in 4 years and (allegedly) loved the party life

- Trading Blake Acres and a top 10 pick for Brad Hill who became our highest paid player but never placed in our B&F

- Continually promoting Lethlean after he was kicked out of the AFL, despite lacking evidence of any acumen, and plenty of evidence to the contrary

- Signing a pair of 31 year olds to 3 year deals (Hill and Wood) despite minimal risk of losing them elsewhere

Where will TDK fit?

In 10 years someone might be writing another list like this.

It might include:

"Paying TDK double what he was worth, to fill a list hole that didn't need filling, reducing possibilities for signing midfielders we desperately needed, while losing Rowan Marshall over it- St Kilda's best ruck of the last 25 years"

I’m going to play both sides of the ball here because you are spiralling and I’m reading someone feeding their own concerns and fears.


We have banked cap. It has to be used or we lose it. So irrespective of what we pay TDK. In my eyes it’s better to pay new instead of front loading a bunch of deals for players who probably still need the carrot in front of them.

What TDK for Marshall starts to do is reset a timeline a number of fans can see is coming to a screeching stop in front of us. Starts to set the clock to the Higgins group being at the forefront of the next tilt and if a Sinclair Wilkie make it, they can be on the outskirts - but still contributing and a young core who are the engine to the success behind them all.

Trading Marshall isn’t going to be some culture killer or club killer in the way losing the Geelong or Carlton games last year to tank would never have ruined the culture.

The issue here, is trading Marshall for a bag of dildos and a curling iron to stick up the other end.

Get a fair deal for Marshall and the hysteria calms down - because it’s fair. Not sure alot of posters are thinking we will get fair and I’d agree and that’s the true issue.

Not the make believe we create in our minds.

 

[The Punter]

Absolutely

Marshall's best seasons have been immediately pre and post Ryder.

2019, 2023 and 2024.

It's funny. I absolutely agree with the eye test (and the stats test too) that these have been Marshall's best seasons. And I've been vocal in my opposition to pushing him permanently forward, believing his goalkicking ability is as a ruckman drifting forward and making his opponent ruck have to defend him (rather than a key defender).

But then there's this:

Steele wins Saints best and fairest in a landslide

Jack Steele capped his breakout season by claiming St Kilda's best and fairest in a landslide on Sunday night.

www.theage.com.au

Rowan Marshall fourth in the B&F in 2020 when he played most games as a second ruck. Ryder finished 8th in the B&F that year.

We haven't had another ruck option since Ryder left, really. TDK would obviously change that. You could have Ryder spend as little time forward too. I think the idea is really both 50% ruck, 30% forward, 20% bench.

 

[Desperate saint]

Leaving Tasmania was the worst thing on this list for mine.

Grew up in Tassie many of the saints best footballers came from there-hence why so many Tassies supported the saints-much much bigger base than the hawks and Norf shocking decision to leave

 

[Miha]

He’s not coming to us so you can all settle.

Sauce?

 

[The Jack]

I reckon the most likely scenario is that none of this happens - TDK re-signs, we keep Marshall and we go to the draft with whatever we end up with.

Plus the picks we get for NAS.

 

[akaifu]

since when has Marshall been on a million $ a year ? Not even close try about $700 k , You're making stuff up

You dont list build getting rid of your best players each year, you add to them

Getting rid of your 2nd best defender and the bloke that came 3rd in your B&F last year without having anyone to replace him is dumb list management. which is what SOS does

Buddy what’s 1.7 million - 700k?

And you’re arguing with yourself. I never said it was a good deal - I just set out the equation bc the other poster thinks it’s purely a straight swap of players

 

[SaintsSeptember]

TDK is not going to improve our list more than an increment.
We'd be simply trading in our old Hilux for a new one before the old one broke down.

At least Ro isn't 24 like McEvoy was.
McEvoy and Stanley both playing years after Longer retired.

 

[mighty_sainters]

I haven’t seen one post being too sentimental.

You look at the 2 clubs mentioned and where their first picks are in the draft and you add in all the clubs requiring academy picks or father sons before them and the picks blow well out.

Get value for your A graders. Don’t accept a pick because it’s labeled a first rounder in a significantly compromised draft that the biggest draft expert of all says is lacking cream talent and depth.

I wasn’t actually talking about what compensation we get for Marshall, more on which ruck long term is likely to improve us.

 

[saintvic]

I think we should be going after Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

25

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

instead of TDK.
We could then shift Sharman to the backline to be the Battle replacement which would help strengthen our backline.
Plus it would give us a double chance of having a King play each week.

 

[SaintsofSteel]

I am all for trading in TDK and paying what it takes to get him across, but if its at the expense of Rowan Marshall

19

Rowan Marshall

Age

30

Ht

201cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.4

4star

K

8.8

3star

HB

6.6

4star

CL

3.4

5star

HO

20.2

5star

D

12.9

3star

K

9.3

4star

HB

3.6

2star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

17.8

5star

D

10.6

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

7.8

5star

the club have NFI. Marshall apart from Wilkie is the heart and sole of the team and plays his heart out each week. Maintaining the fabric of the team is as important as adding talent and Marshall is that.

Dodson showed last week he is developing well and another young ruckman who has impressed me this year is Lachan Smith 19yo 203cms at the Bulldogs. The Dogs have found another couple of diamonds late in the 2023 draft with Joel Friejah #45 and Smith #47. If we want another ruckman for the future throw a heap of cash and years at Smith he is on a 1 year contract.

I can understand the club wanting TDK he is a game breaker, but just as he has his strengths Marshall is a game saver! It would be a ridiculous move to lose Marshall after adding TDK.

 

[jimmytigs]

But I’ll bet the large majority won’t be happy with a teens pick & Leek Aleer.

id be in the majority,see if rowston gets a run this week,if he is any chop add him to that deal and we are getting warmer

 

[g_TRAIN]

I've always viewed Ming as more a CHF shoved at FF, so there is that room since we don't really have a CHF, we have Owens. so in that sort of world there is a space for Bing at FF and Ming at CHF so Owens can be on a HFF and have mid forward minutes and Wood on the other for wing/HF, 2 smalls and Sharman as a legit third depending on set ups.

Say we have Higgo = Milne, we have Ming = Roo, we're missing the G Train FF, this was Caminiti, this was Sharman but he's a third, this means Wood gets dragged outta wing time and you thus snowball outta HFF area per usual and let's shallow bomb to roughly 35-40 out per usual.

This is also why Keeler "works" if he gets the ethic of being an AFL footballer, as he and Ming can interchange in FF-CHF and release the others. This for me is also why we looked good up forward early doors, as you had Owens, Wood, Higgo, Sharman and co playing natural games as two talls in spine in F50. it's also why previously they plugged Cordy forward with out injury days, we needed multiple talls in F50.

So I find it just wrong that we couldn't fit Bing in team wise, we certainly could.

I would argue yes, they are different players, but they have the same weaknesses.

They don't chase, tackle, or apply pressure at ground level. Neither is a great endurance athlete.

Max is capable higher up the ground, but he gases out quickly, and I'm not sure he could do it full-time.

It's just my opinion, of course, that they wouldn't work, but the above is certainly true.

 

[HeavenlySources]

I’m going to play both sides of the ball here because you are spiralling and I’m reading someone feeding their own concerns and fears.


We have banked cap. It has to be used or we lose it. So irrespective of what we pay TDK. In my eyes it’s better to pay new instead of front loading a bunch of deals for players who probably still need the carrot in front of them.

What TDK for Marshall starts to do is reset a timeline a number of fans can see is coming to a screeching stop in front of us. Starts to set the clock to the Higgins group being at the forefront of the next tilt and if a Sinclair Wilkie make it, they can be on the outskirts - but still contributing and a young core who are the engine to the success behind them all.

Trading Marshall isn’t going to be some culture killer or club killer in the way losing the Geelong or Carlton games last year to tank would never have ruined the culture.

The issue here, is trading Marshall for a bag of dildos and a curling iron to stick up the other end.

Get a fair deal for Marshall and the hysteria calms down - because it’s fair. Not sure alot of posters are thinking we will get fair and I’d agree and that’s the true issue.

Not the make believe we create in our minds.

Step 1: Secure TDK in FA window

Step 2: Coordinate 3 way trade with whichever club wants Ro that any trade for him must also allow us to satisfy Port and GWS for Bergman and Aleer respectively.

Out: Ro + Excess Salary Cap

In: TDK, Bergman and Aleer

Retain: NWM, 2025 Frdp (Pick 4-8)

Expert ruthless list management and utilises the SC that no A grade mid wants to come across for (after many attempts)

 

[HeavenlySources]

Step 1: Secure TDK in FA window

Step 2: Coordinate 3 way trade with whichever club wants Ro that any trade for him must also allow us to satisfy Port and GWS for Bergman and Aleer respectively.

Out: Ro + Excess Salary Cap

In: TDK, Bergman and Aleer

Retain: NWM, 2025 Frdp (Pick 4-8)

Expert ruthless list management and utilises the SC that no A grade mid wants to come across for (after many attempts)

I’d add to this, that if the plan is to play both Ro and TDK we would already be seeing our system change and perhaps Heath play that role to trial it. I don’t think that’s the plan, Ross has been sticking pretty strictly to the solo ruck despite ample opportunity and excuses too go another direction.

 

[stavro#4]

Step 1: Secure TDK in FA window

Step 2: Coordinate 3 way trade with whichever club wants Ro that any trade for him must also allow us to satisfy Port and GWS for Bergman and Aleer respectively.

Out: Ro + Excess Salary Cap

In: TDK, Bergman and Aleer

Retain: NWM, 2025 Frdp (Pick 4-8)

Expert ruthless list management and utilises the SC that no A grade mid wants to come across for (after many attempts)

Give me the scenario where Bergman doesn’t end up here. That’s the one I think plays out.

 

[HeavenlySources]

Give me the scenario where Bergman doesn’t end up here. That’s the one I think plays out.

Have a listen to Sammy Edmund on SEN yesterday and what he said about Bergman

 

[Saintbloke]

We are suffering from a lack of strength in the back and forward half. Sharman, Owens and Caminiti are not KPPs and really need a big bodied marking forward to be in the mix down there..ideally King in top form and able to play long chunks of consecutive games, but I don't think we will be seeing that much anymore, so there's a bit of homework for the football dept to do.

 

[stavro#4]

Have a listen to Sammy Edmund on SEN yesterday and what he said about Bergman

“We all thought St Kilda, (but) St Kilda haven’t actually tabled an offer completely yet for him. They are interested ... but the Bulldogs have emerged,” Herald Sun journalist Glenn McFarlane told Fox Footy’s Midweek Tackle on Tuesday night.

 

[akaifu]

We are suffering from a lack of strength in the back and forward half. Sharman, Owens and Caminiti are not KPPs and really need a big bodied marking forward to be in the mix down there..ideally King in top form and able to play long chunks of consecutive games, but I don't think we will be seeing that much anymore, so there's a bit of homework for the football dept to do.

Sharman is a key forward. Just not a focal point full forward and is also yet to reach his prime. He needs King back to thrive imo

 

[mad-saint-guy]

It's absolutely wild that our two areas of least need are a number one ruck and a half back....yet it seems we're about to spend 2.6mil on TDK and Bergman.

 

[PJays]

We have banked cap. It has to be used or we lose it. So irrespective of what we pay TDK.

It’s true we must pay 95% of the cap. So we are literally forced to pay somebody next year.

What you’re ignoring is the length of the deal, and the impact that can have on other possibilities in that journey.

Who knows which mids become available at the end of 2026, or the end of 2027? Signing De Koning may reduce short term excess cap, but limits long-term flexibility.

Clubs don’t win flags by massively overpaying players.

Clubs win flags by creating good culture which allows them to underpay players.

The only players that are worth this type of contract are generational stars. Prime Buddy, Prime Ablett jr, Dusty, Dangerfield, Bontempelli etc. Midfielders or match-winning forwards who are consistently top 5, top 10 in the AFL.

Not some ruckman who’s turning 26 and whose best season was 7th in the B&F of a team who snuck into finals.

 

[The Punter]

It's absolutely wild that our two areas of least need are a number one ruck and a half back....yet it seems we're about to spend 2.6mil on TDK and Bergman.

I don't think there's much debate around here on what we most badly need: a front of stoppage elite mid.

So could you provide me with the list of gettable, realistic targets who fit that mould for next year?