List Mgmt. 2025 List Management discussion

[Yawkey way]

You have to wonder how much of it is just a Sos obsession.

Well, you don't... but I do.

I’m not an Sos fan, if I was being kind I’d say he has his moments.

In some ways it’s natural that you’d recruit from former clubs given the relationships made and knowledge of managers, contracts etc. Sos seems to make it personal though. No inside information just my opinion.

 

[MordySaint]

It was crazy day 1 and it’s still crazy if it’s just about the impact of Marshall v TDK.

Paying $1.7 for a ruck and just shrugging and saying oh well we need to spend it anyway is so lazy. What appears to be going on here imo is more along the lines of st Kilda replacing Marshall with a younger model and effectively buying a first round pick by trading Marshall out and overpaying for TDK.

Marshall spent plenty of time forward last night when Moose rucked, more than enough to remind people he’s no key forward. I’m ok with the TDK strategy maybe we’ll get the mid we need or another piece with the Marshall pick. On the flip side I’d be just as happy if the deal falls over and Marshall stays. Marshall, Moose, Dodson and Keeler is more than enough.

Nothing against Boyd but please can we move on now from the mature backup clogging up the works in the Vfl, hopefully the last in a long line.

Then we look at Moose last night and we could have a real goer in him.

We need to spend the money, TDK can play ... the offer has just put a real downer on recruitment when we let a decent player slip last year.

Last night did put a real focus on our youth, would we have won if TDK played.... thats the question. Would he have been a one goal difference?

 

[_Maximus_12]

Have you watched TDK this year? Nas and Hall have been much more influential than him. I would argue Windhager has been as well. And they are all about 3 years younger than TDK.
I would say that making a ruck the highest paid player in the league is much more likely to blow up the salary cap than front ending the contracts of a few young players who have shown a lot.

I have. Have you? His first 8 weeks were All-Australian level. Since he's started spending more time forward, he's been average. Guess what we're bringing him in to do? Play ruck.


Paying our current list more, because you'd rather not spend $1.7m on TDK doesn't improve our list. I'd rather not spend the additional capspace than overpay our current list. It's not a conversation of TDK or retaining the players on our list, it's TDK AND retaining our current list.

 

[stavro#4]

Have you watched TDK this year? Nas and Hall have been much more influential than him. I would argue Windhager has been as well. And they are all about 3 years younger than TDK.
I would say that making a ruck the highest paid player in the league is much more likely to blow up the salary cap than front ending the contracts of a few young players who have shown a lot.

Yeah I’ve watched plenty of TDK this year and let’s put the money aside as we discuss this.

If people want to review his year, then you need to admit he looked like a superstar ruck in the first half of the year. Absolutely carried Carlton and at times looked like he was the only one trying.

Looked horrible since their bye. But so has Carlton in general. Then he has been stuck as a key forward for the last month.

By comparison. Marshall has looked a shell of the guy we had last year. Been dominated the last 4 weeks - maybe longer. Overall is just not having much of an impact.

Re the money: Whether you believe Caroline Wilson or not, we have a $3m surplus in our cap space in both 2026 and 2027 as we are only paying 85% of our cap on current contracts and forward paying a number of deals.

It’s also likely there is a few 100k made up from the AFLs media fund etc.

 

[phantom13]

Yeah I’ve watched plenty of TDK this year and let’s put the money aside as we discuss this.

If people want to review his year, then you need to admit he looked like a superstar ruck in the first half of the year. Absolutely carried Carlton and at times looked like he was the only one trying.

Looked horrible since their bye. But so has Carlton in general. Then he has been stuck as a key forward for the last month.

By comparison. Marshall has looked a shell of the guy we had last year. Been dominated the last 4 weeks - maybe longer. Overall is just not having much of an impact.

Re the money: Whether you believe Caroline Wilson or not, we have a $3m surplus in our cap space in both 2026 and 2027 as we are only paying 85% of our cap on current contracts and forward paying a number of deals.

It’s also likely there is a few 100k made up from the AFLs media fund etc.

I dont think you can put the money aside though.

I dont see anyone saying "TDK is shit, do not want" most if not all of the discussion is around whether hes worth $1.7m or not. Its really the point i made earlier about understanding WHY hes getting $1.7m which alot of people either dont or do and dont care.

The point is IMO fair, hes just not worth anywhere near that amount based on output, even his first 6 weeks or whatever you want to point to. Thats not WHY were paying him that though.

Its alot of "gotta pay someone" and in the meantime were worried about Nas (which is clearly not a money issue) Hall, Windy and some of the kids who look well worthy of a little bump.

I reckon its not really worth critiquing the critics of the TDK deal cause the argument for it isnt related to the argument against it.

 

[CaptainRisky]

I see a lot of Oscar Clavarino in big Max , 5 years to get a game plays a couple and delisted , as much as it is a fairy tail for some i cant see him being with us next year , Byrne's in the same boat

 

[phantom13]

I have. Have you? His first 8 weeks were All-Australian level. Since he's started spending more time forward, he's been average. Guess what we're bringing him in to do? Play ruck.


Paying our current list more, because you'd rather not spend $1.7m on TDK doesn't improve our list. I'd rather not spend the additional capspace than overpay our current list. It's not a conversation of TDK or retaining the players on our list, it's TDK AND retaining our current list.

Provided we can do the bolded, great, the concern is about who do we lose because of TDKs cap space hit.

Might wind up being no one but we have some very good kids, playing very well, in recent weeks who become a concern when were paying someone double what Roma is on for an arguable return.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Provided we can do the bolded, great, the concern is about who do we lose because of TDKs cap space hit.

Might wind up being no one but we have some very good kids, playing very well, in recent weeks who become a concern when were paying someone double what Roma is on for an arguable return.

If we want to live in the land of hypotheticals.
What if we don't get TDK? Roma's body continues to fail him, we continue to get smashed next year and our young talent ask to play elsewhere because they're sick of losing? Perpetual cycle of rebuilding.

 

[stavro#4]

I dont think you can put the money aside though.

I dont see anyone saying "TDK is shit, do not want" most if not all of the discussion is around whether hes worth $1.7m or not. Its really the point i made earlier about understanding WHY hes getting $1.7m which alot of people either dont or do and dont care.

The point is IMO fair, hes just not worth anywhere near that amount based on output, even his first 6 weeks or whatever you want to point to. Thats not WHY were paying him that though.

Its alot of "gotta pay someone" and in the meantime were worried about Nas (which is clearly not a money issue) Hall, Windy and some of the kids who look well worthy of a little bump.

I reckon its not really worth critiquing the critics of the TDK deal cause the argument for it isnt related to the argument against it.

We have thrown stupid money at a number of players. Would we be better off with Rowell at $2m per year?

That’s just as insane. Facts are no one has wanted to come and this reality beats the reality where we do a north and grab Dylan Stephen’s Caleb Daniel’s or Logue etc.

We don’t even know the true nature of the deal. It was only a month ago Aleer was getting 900k from us which is now 750. I highly doubt TDK is banking 1.7m a year guaranteed without so much as a performance or games played trigger involved.

 

[MordySaint]

I see a lot of Oscar Clavarino in big Max , 5 years to get a game plays a couple and delisted , as much as it is a fairy tail for some i cant see him being with us next year , Byrne's in the same boat

Clavarino never did what Moose did to Grundy. He's an inspirational type and could be a crowd favourite.

I'd put him more in the category of "Big Boy", who took a few seasons to get going then never looked back.

Keep, pay what he is worth.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Let's say we have $3m cap space next season and the year after, before we move on from Marshall & Steele...

I reckon you'll find that if we're winning games, there will be more than enough to go around.

 

[phantom13]

If we want to live in the land of hypotheticals.
What if we don't get TDK? Roma's body continues to fail him, we continue to get smashed next year and our young talent ask to play elsewhere because they're sick of losing? Perpetual cycle of rebuilding.

Yours is a hypothetical too?

Id actually argue that besides romas body "failing" him (how many games has he missed in recent years) we also have Heath who looked solid yesterday AND Dodson developing really well IF Roma was to fail.

Im not arguing either side here (for full disclosure i dont really love TDK at the dollars but i also totally understand why were doing it and im backing the decision makers here). Im simply pointing out that the counter argument to yours also has merit.

Ultimately we wont know until it happens and we have a few years of evidence to decide. Right now both hypotheticals are pretty reasonable to consider.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Clavarino never did what Moose did to Grundy. He's an inspirational type and could be a crowd favourite.

I'd put him more in the category of "Big Boy", who took a few seasons to get going then never looked back.

Keep, pay what he is worth.

See you just backed up what i said , one tackle doesn't get you a contract , yeah its cool how the crowd said Mooooose but you have to look a bit deeper

 

[phantom13]

We have thrown stupid money at a number of players. Would we be better off with Rowell at $2m per year?

That’s just as insane. Facts are no one has wanted to come and this reality beats the reality where we do a north and grab Dylan Stephen’s Caleb Daniel’s or Logue etc.

We don’t even know the true nature of the deal. It was only a month ago Aleer was getting 900k from us which is now 750. I highly doubt TDK is banking 1.7m a year guaranteed without so much as a performance or games played trigger involved.

Yeh, again, im not arguing it with you (noting Rowell at $2m a year makes more sense given our deficiencies than TDK at $1.7m).

Im simply pointing out the concern isnt without merit. I dont think anyone can really argue that point and even you have to demand that people forget about the money to have the convo when the money is really the ONLY point of concern.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Yours is a hypothetical too?

Id actually argue that besides romas body "failing" him (how many games has he missed in recent years) we also have Heath who looked solid yesterday AND Dodson developing really well IF Roma was to fail.

Im not arguing either side here (for full disclosure i dont really love TDK at the dollars but i also totally understand why were doing it and im backing the decision makers here). Im simply pointing out that the counter argument to yours also has merit.

Ultimately we wont know until it happens and we have a few years of evidence to decide. Right now both hypotheticals are pretty reasonable to consider.

That was the point.

It has merit yes - I'm happy for the club to do what it takes to improve our list immediately which is why I'm in support of the TDK move.

 

[stavro#4]

Yeh, again, im not arguing it with you (noting Rowell at $2m a year makes more sense given our deficiencies than TDK at $1.7m).

Im simply pointing out the concern isnt without merit. I dont think anyone can really argue that point and even you have to demand that people forget about the money to have the convo when the money is really the ONLY point of concern.

I’m saying forget about the money because the argument will never be about what his actual output is - which is what I’m trying to discuss - the player we are actually getting and I dare say that might be a factor in why so many players have turned down the big offer.

For the record. Rowell at $2m is just as insane. Yes he fits a need. No he isn’t a damaging game changing player. He is a premium inside mid and we need mids who are super damaging with ball in hand

 

[phantom13]

I’m saying forget about the money because the argument will never be about what his actual output is - which is what I’m trying to discuss - the player we are actually getting and I dare say that might be a factor in why so many players have turned down the big offer.

Yeh, i mean i really cant make it any clearer to you that youre not arguing the point the "anti TDK" side are making at all.

I get what your saying, overall i mostly agree with it and again, i back the decision makers in this instance (and as you well know i often dont) but if youre unwilling to see the whole argument is about money then youre just yelling into the void.

 

[stavro#4]

Yeh, i mean i really cant make it any clearer to you that youre not arguing the point the "anti TDK" side are making at all.

I get what your saying, overall i mostly agree with it and again, i back the decision makers in this instance (and as you well know i often dont) but if youre unwilling to see the whole argument is about money then youre just yelling into the void.

Mate I see the argument. I know they don’t think he is worth the money.

But those who are worth the money are not moving. So we can keep dancing around that or we can wait until the end of the trade period and see what comes off the back off this deal - which I suspect and am hoping is that we effectively just brought ourselves some very expensive draft picks to go along with a ruck that just replaced Roma for the same output or better.

 

[Yawkey way]

I see a lot of Oscar Clavarino in big Max , 5 years to get a game plays a couple and delisted , as much as it is a fairy tail for some i cant see him being with us next year , Byrne's in the same boat

Moose stays and Boyd goes, Moose has shown enough to be an injury back up.

A lot of ifs but if king is fit and Dougal Howard, Moose is capable of covering the rucking duties for a few weeks. Let’s face it not many teams are carrying 2 first rucks.

 

[phantom13]

Mate I see the argument. I know they don’t think he is worth the money.

But those who are worth the money are not moving. So we can keep dancing around that or we can wait until the end of the trade period and see what comes off the back off this deal - which I suspect and am hoping is that we effectively just brought ourselves some very expensive draft picks to go along with a ruck that just replaced Roma for the same output or better.

Thats fine, again, i get it, i agree with it mostly, im only pointing out that you continually saying "ignore the money" isnt engaging with the fundamental principle behind the counter argument.

Anyway, we always get accused of spatting for nothing and were actually in agreement here (as we are on that ****ing idiotic Nas thread on the main board) so love and peace my friend.

 

[_Maximus_12]

Players on decent ($approx 500k+) salaries that will LIKELY come off the books or be significantly reduced over the next 3 seasons:
Steele
Marshall
Hill
Howard
Sinclair
Wood
Macrae
Cordy ($400k)

We have a hole in our list of players aged 23-29 (which is generally the bracket that takes up the most cap space). Our two most valuable in this bracket are King and Higgins who are both contracted till 2028 or later.

That is a massive redistribution of salary cap to a very young list IF we don't add more players in that are 23 years old or older.

 

[Bill Crouse]

I have. Have you? His first 8 weeks were All-Australian level. Since he's started spending more time forward, he's been average. Guess what we're bringing him in to do? Play ruck.


Paying our current list more, because you'd rather not spend $1.7m on TDK doesn't improve our list. I'd rather not spend the additional capspace than overpay our current list. It's not a conversation of TDK or retaining the players on our list, it's TDK AND retaining our current list.

Yes, unfortunately Carlton have probably been the team I have watched play the 2nd most this year. Every time I hope to see something from him, but I am always disappointed. I remember thinking when they lost to Richmond that his supercoach scores might be good but that Nankervis was much more influential on the game. Ironically that was probably his best game all year.

 

[stavro#4]

Thats fine, again, i get it, i agree with it mostly, im only pointing out that you continually saying "ignore the money" isnt engaging with the fundamental principle behind the counter argument.

Anyway, we always get accused of spatting for nothing and were actually in agreement here (as we are on that ****ing idiotic Nas thread on the main board) so love and peace my friend.

We agree. I’m not sure what the issue is for anyone else.

And again the ignore the money part is to discuss the actual player. Which is what will be running around in our colours.

Same output as Rowan. We hope he goes above that.

Younger falls inline with the list build in the Higgins demographic that we lack.

 

[jwikked]

Moose stays and Boyd goes, Moose has shown enough to be an injury back up.

A lot of ifs but if king is fit and Dougal Howard, Moose is capable of covering the rucking duties for a few weeks. Let’s face it not many teams are carrying 2 first rucks.

Would like to see him more than one good game lol. Our recent history is littered with players that come in on debut, play very impressive, and then never do it again.

 

[stavro#4]

Would like to see him more than one good game lol. Our recent history is littered with players that come in on debut, play very impressive, and then never do it again.

The best way to appraise Moose and Dodson is to ice Marshall for the rest of the year and throw them the keys for the final 6 games.