Training 2025 Pre-Season Thread

[p4p1]

I thought Morris looked excellent at times. Still some mistakes here and there but its only to be expected. He is listed as 191cm but there was a shot where he was standing next to Bez and clearly looked taller than Bez who is listed at 192.
The size of the hole that Joe left became clearer IMO. I know we didn't take Joe for granted but it really reminded me last night of just how good he was.
Day doesn't appear to be the answer, he looked SLOW. He did a couple of good things in the ruck but I am not sure he is better as a forward option over Fort or Smith, both of who I would expect to be better rucking options. I'm not a fan of running two rucks, I don't think it really works but given Hippy is returning from injury, Morris and Gallop still being fairly young, it could be our best option unless we decide to limit Oscars around the ground role IE f50 contests and have Dunks pinch hit when required.
The other problem that made it all the more difficult for the match selection committee is that all of our small/mid forwards (outside of Charlie and Cam) played well. Linc despite not looking that great did enough to show he can still play and just needs more game time. Can you bring in someone just for a big body to help with Ruck duties for 15-20% of the game when they are arguably a liability for the other 80%? Can you possibly try and share the load around instead when O is off?
Starce out/injured sucks but that is football. The only worry is that this is his second concussion within 6 months or so. Both hits would likely have caused a concussion regardless of his concussion history but you don't want to see any player getting too many. If for nothing else other than for life after football.
I would be surprised if Levi played on the ball once the serious stuff starts as much as he did last night. I think he has shown enough over the last two practice games that he becomes a lock.
Cal comes in for Starce would be the easy decision to make but I'm not sure they will push Cal back. We have to get our squad of 26 starters down to 22 plus a sub. You're not going to play Day, Gallop and Smith at the same time when Hippy and Logan are fit. That drops us down to 24. Maybe you give Linc a bit more time out after his ACL but with no VFL until April he won't get any game time to get match fit and get back into the swing of things.
If I am being honest, I think Dizzy showed more than Day has as a forward so far in the short time we saw him last year. Yes Day brings the ability to back up ruck and Dizz is coming off an ACL and is not as strong but again I just don't know how long you can carry someone for the 15% of the game you need them.
It looked like we wanted to use our wingers a bit more and looked to get the ball in their hands more often. Bez was good, Fletcher looked outstanding and Bailey is making the role his own.
We have great depth all around the ground apart from KPF/backup ruck. We have 2 hard games first followed by two gimmies so I would be happy with the coaching and team selection panel to move things around a bit and try to find a solution to that massive Joe sized hole. I am sure they have some ideas and I am sure they aren't going to show their full hand during practise games, especially with guys coming off injuries and not match hardened yet but the not knowing of it all is killing me.
Does anyone have Fages' number so I can get the answers I need?

 

[twhowler]

Managed to watch very little of the game.

Interesting in thoughts from those that did:

• How fit did hippy look? I was working to the assumption he would struggle for OR given how long he has had off. Such a long time off and we wouldn't rush him, but maybe he has been held back and ready to go?
• Who took ruck minutes, sounds like only Oscar, Smith and Day? In that case presumably Day will play. I think Oscar needs some decent chop-out given he had a very limited pre season
• I saw some mention Charlie. He seemed to lose a bit of explosiveness last year, although it was the goal-kicking that hurt him most. Agree he is a watch, highly reliant on pace, Betts kept going beyond pace but he was more skilled i reckon
• Did anyone else look underdone? My long-term view has been we will really struggle in our first 2 games. Hoping to be wrong. Cats will be primed i reckon

 

[p4p1]

What about Vossy?
Surely our last premiership captain should be involved

 

[twhowler]

I thought Morris looked excellent at times. Still some mistakes here and there but its only to be expected. He is listed as 191cm but there was a shot where he was standing next to Bez and clearly looked taller than Bez who is listed at 192.
The size of the hole that Joe left became clearer IMO. I know we didn't take Joe for granted but it really reminded me last night of just how good he was.
Day doesn't appear to be the answer, he looked SLOW. He did a couple of good things in the ruck but I am not sure he is better as a forward option over Fort or Smith, both of who I would expect to be better rucking options. I'm not a fan of running two rucks, I don't think it really works but given Hippy is returning from injury, Morris and Gallop still being fairly young, it could be our best option unless we decide to limit Oscars around the ground role IE f50 contests and have Dunks pinch hit when required.
The other problem that made it all the more difficult for the match selection committee is that all of our small/mid forwards (outside of Charlie and Cam) played well. Linc despite not looking that great did enough to show he can still play and just needs more game time. Can you bring in someone just for a big body to help with Ruck duties for 15-20% of the game when they are arguably a liability for the other 80%? Can you possibly try and share the load around instead when O is off?
Starce out/injured sucks but that is football. The only worry is that this is his second concussion within 6 months or so. Both hits would likely have caused a concussion regardless of his concussion history but you don't want to see any player getting too many. If for nothing else other than for life after football.
I would be surprised if Levi played on the ball once the serious stuff starts as much as he did last night. I think he has shown enough over the last two practice games that he becomes a lock.
Cal comes in for Starce would be the easy decision to make but I'm not sure they will push Cal back. We have to get our squad of 26 starters down to 22 plus a sub. You're not going to play Day, Gallop and Smith at the same time when Hippy and Logan are fit. That drops us down to 24. Maybe you give Linc a bit more time out after his ACL but with no VFL until April he won't get any game time to get match fit and get back into the swing of things.
If I am being honest, I think Dizzy showed more than Day has as a forward so far in the short time we saw him last year. Yes Day brings the ability to back up ruck and Dizz is coming off an ACL and is not as strong but again I just don't know how long you can carry someone for the 15% of the game you need them.
It looked like we wanted to use our wingers a bit more and looked to get the ball in their hands more often. Bez was good, Fletcher looked outstanding and Bailey is making the role his own.
We have great depth all around the ground apart from KPF/backup ruck. We have 2 hard games first followed by two gimmies so I would be happy with the coaching and team selection panel to move things around a bit and try to find a solution to that massive Joe sized hole. I am sure they have some ideas and I am sure they aren't going to show their full hand during practise games, especially with guys coming off injuries and not match hardened yet but the not knowing of it all is killing me.
Does anyone have Fages' number so I can get the answers I need?

THanks for the write-up

Seems a few are saying Day looks underwhelming. I suppose given his age and injury history he might be in cruise mode? Not having seen a lot of Gallop his height and bulk suggest he would be good for 5 minutes of ruck a quarter if he does play. Ultimately it's not many minutes in there AND tends to be against an ordinary ruck as most sides have a part-timer in there.

Richmond of course turned their weakness in to a strength in 2019. Grigg in the ruck at 190cm. I wonder if there is someone outside the box? I don't really like Dunkley there as he is a crucial part of the midfield.

The problem is Richmond had Riewoldt how was an all-time great.

 

[p4p1]

THanks for the write-up

Seems a few are saying Day looks underwhelming. I suppose given his age and injury history he might be in cruise mode? Not having seen a lot of Gallop his height and bulk suggest he would be good for 5 minutes of ruck a quarter if he does play. Ultimately it's not many minutes in there AND tends to be against an ordinary ruck as most sides have a part-timer in there.

Richmond of course turned their weakness in to a strength in 2019. Grigg in the ruck at 190cm. I wonder if there is someone outside the box? I don't really like Dunkley there as he is a crucial part of the midfield.

The problem is Richmond had Riewoldt how was an all-time great.

I agree, I think he is too important for the midfield and I wonder physically how much it would take out of him and how that impact the rest of his mid minutes. Bez can/could play Dunks' role while Dunks was in the ruck but I would prefer another option tbh. We have the cattle to move around for 5 or so mins each quarter to take Bez and Dunks from their primary roles without it hurting our game too much.
Physically, Payne could compete at boundary throw ins and non CBs ball ups ala Hawkins but I don't know that you can move a defender into the ruck like you can a forward. It seems fraught with danger. Other than Payne, I don't think we have any big burley guys that can compete as an undersized ruck in the same way grigg was able to. But we will find out I guess.

 

[twhowler]

I agree, I think he is too important for the midfield and I wonder physically how much it would take out of him and how that impact the rest of his mid minutes. Bez can/could play Dunks' role while Dunks was in the ruck but I would prefer another option tbh. We have the cattle to move around for 5 or so mins each quarter to take Bez and Dunks from their primary roles without it hurting our game too much.
Physically, Payne could compete at boundary throw ins and non CBs ball ups ala Hawkins but I don't know that you can move a defender into the ruck like you can a forward. It seems fraught with danger. Other than Payne, I don't think we have any big burley guys that can compete as an undersized ruck in the same way grigg was able to. But we will find out I guess.

Payne also way too injury prone for mine.

Gallop does look like he has the rig and is not going to be someone re rely on for a lot of goals so he does make sense

 

[Nuggo]

Ruck craft in protecting one's own body is very important at AFL level. If Gallop hasn't done a lot of ruck craft I would keep him out of there. Perhaps as the year goes on and his ruck craft skill increases for sure. Maybe he has good ruck craft. Don't know.

 

[Dalions]

Ruck craft in protecting one's own body is very important at AFL level. If Gallop hasn't done a lot of ruck craft I would keep him out of there. Perhaps as the year goes on and his ruck craft skill increases for sure. Maybe he has good ruck craft. Don't know.

One thing he does have is a natural “aggression and strength”.
Something that is a requirement for a good ruck at AFL level.
One of the Lions best rucks during my time as a Lions supporter was a slightly undersized Stefan Martin who had the above in spades.
Gallop at this stage is even shorter than Stef but could develop as a ruck with time, but certainly not this year , it’s far too much to ask of a young g KPP.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I loved Gallop's repeat sprint, chasing and harassing any ball carrier at his vicinity.

He's like a young colt let off leash and did a "now you can watch me go woweeeeeeeeeee"

I really think that Gallop is a massive PLAN B. He could be 2025’s Logan Morris. Massive impact possible. Day probably gets first crack, but isn’t he isn’t firing then Gallop is worth a shot.

 

[Big Sauce 21]

Thought Neale looked very fit last night. Big year coming up again

 

[buttermuffs]

I’m down to throw Hippy in the ruck and play Gallop instead of Day.

I feel it’s more important to have someone in there who can make some impact at ground level than in the actual contests. Day looked a little lost when he had the ball in that position. Hippy can be clumsy but will commit and is a good at involving himself in scores. He will suck at the actual Rick battle but will be better than Day after that.

 

[BigCat2]

Ruck craft in protecting one's own body is very important at AFL level. If Gallop hasn't done a lot of ruck craft I would keep him out of there. Perhaps as the year goes on and his ruck craft skill increases for sure. Maybe he has good ruck craft. Don't know.

How many times can one mention ruck craft in one paragraph?

 

[pod17]

How many times can one mention ruck craft in one paragraph?

Reminded me of Jackie Chiles when speaking about putting the ‘balm on’.

 

[briztoon]

I really he proves us wrong. He is one of the great small forwards the game has seen. I think that like Linc, he is a bit at sea, now that Kai has taken that special small forward role. Defense has never been Charlie’s main attribute although in the last year he has really tried in this area.

It’s a massively changing forward line this year. Logan, Ty, Kai, Levi all under 21. Cam, Hipwood and Callum mid 20’s and Linc, Charlie and Sam in their 30’s. It could be a forward line with a very low average age sooner rather than later.

What the???

Defense was Charlie's number one role at the Crows. Eddie Betts was their goal scoring small forward and Cameron was their, harassing defensive small forward.

In his first year with us, he was very good playing both ways. That changed when Linc arrived the year after, and Charlie took on a more offensive role, and McCarthy took on the small forward defensive role.

 

[briztoon]

One thing he does have is a natural “aggression and strength”.
Something that is a requirement for a good ruck at AFL level.
One of the Lions best rucks during my time as a Lions supporter was a slightly undersized Stefan Martin who had the above in spades.
Gallop at this stage is even shorter than Stef but could develop as a ruck with time, but certainly not this year , it’s far too much to ask of a young g KPP.

I don't believe Martin had a naturally aggressive streak. Not like Ty.

 

[NotQuiteJezza]

What the???

Defense was Charlie's number one role at the Crows. Eddie Betts was their goal scoring small forward and Cameron was their, harassing defensive small forward.

In his first year with us, he was very good playing both ways. That changed when Linc arrived the year after, and Charlie took on a more offensive role, and McCarthy took on the small forward defensive role.

He has never been that defensive at the Lions. Stats don’t lie. I can remember many times when his effort was questionable. It’s only been in the last year or so that you would see him down the wing and occasionally in defense. As I said, his role has changed since Kai came into the team. 3 tackles last night is above Charlie’s average.

 

[Dalions]

I don't believe Martin had a naturally aggressive streak. Not like Ty.

I agree that he wasn’t aggressive as such but he was certainly very strong in the contest.

 

[Dalions]

He has never been that defensive at the Lions. Stats don’t lie. I can remember many times when his effort was questionable. It’s only been in the last year or so that you would see him down the wing and occasionally in defense. As I said, his role has changed since Kai came into the team. 3 tackles last night is above Charlie’s average.

That’s because he went from being the number 5-6 forward to being number 1.

 

[NotQuiteJezza]

That’s because he went from being the number 5-6 forward to being number 1.

That’s my point. Not being the #1 forward or small forward has put him in selection danger IMO.

 

[briztoon]

He has never been that defensive at the Lions. Stats don’t lie. I can remember many times when his effort was questionable. It’s only been in the last year or so that you would see him down the wing and occasionally in defense. As I said, his role has changed since Kai came into the team. 3 tackles last night is above Charlie’s average.

I've been fairly critical of Charlie on here for a number of years. Calling him out for being a one way runner. Had a bit of push back at times from other posters.

But you did post that defense has never been Charlie's number one attribute. I was just pointing out that, that is incorrect.

I agree with what Squizz89 said on the previous page about Charlie, but I'll add his ankle injury from a couple of seasons ago has contributed to his possible drop off of pace. It's quite noticeable at training how much his ankle affects him.

 

[Dalions]

That’s my point. Not being the #1 forward or small forward has put him in selection danger IMO.

Not if he is putting on defensive pressure whilst still contributing to the score board.
Which at the moment he is still doing.

 

[Tom14]

I didn't want to mention him based off a trial game, but off the back of last year and watching him last night he's definitely a 'watch' for me this year.

I was worried last year that his drop in pace might've been an age thing, and nothing I saw last night, or him running around in the Freo game a couple of weeks has addressed those concerns.

I said a few years ago, when the pace dropped for him, the end could come quickly given how much he has relied on it to make a great career. I hope he leaves me with egg on my face, because with losing Joe we really need him getting involved & hitting the scoreboard again.

Charlie’s biggest issue last year was his woeful accuracy. Compared to 2023 he took half a shot less per game.

The reason his goal tally dropped from 59 in 2023 to 44 last year is he couldn’t hit the side of a barn door and had a ridiculous amount of complete misses.

I really don’t see to the naked eye a noticeable difference in pace, and he still offers a lot even if the goals were down.

 

[Gadzorks]

What the???

Defense was Charlie's number one role at the Crows. Eddie Betts was their goal scoring small forward and Cameron was their, harassing defensive small forward.

In his first year with us, he was very good playing both ways. That changed when Linc arrived the year after, and Charlie took on a more offensive role, and McCarthy took on the small forward defensive role.

Half way through the gf again and Charlie defensive pressure and team first mentality really stands out.

 

[Clarkythelion]

So, I think going into practice matches the thinking around Joe's replacement was something like

Smith - he is our man, we build from within this year, more ruck than forward but he can bring it to ground, he's had 4 or so games and knows our processes and he is our future in the ruck anyway.

Day, we will get for backup if that all goes wrong, he can hold the post down, old faithful, like a Volvo, boring but safe.

Ryan - bugger we didn't get that right

Two rucks with Forte up forward or benched, maybe, yeah nar, we loose maybe 40 goals for the season. Reversed with big O up forward, not really, Forte was great in the Granny but we got lucky with motivation in the occasion.

Gallop - what tha? we weren't expecting that, hmmmmmm can the kid go the distance, we get goals, we get defence but then there is the rucking bit.

Play small, catch a few teams out early with a different game plan. Yep, might work but there is still the ruck thingy.

Hippy or another tall will just rob Peter to pay Paul.

Have to admit I'm none the wiser - 5 minutes a quarter helping out in the ruck seems the key to team unity and maybe 2 goals a game average. Maybe the answer is week to week just change it. Just don't know.

 

[Sproj]

So, I think going into practice matches the thinking around Joe's replacement was something like

Smith - he is our man, we build from within this year, more ruck than forward but he can bring it to ground, he's had 4 or so games and knows our processes and he is our future in the ruck anyway.

Day, we will get for backup if that all goes wrong, he can hold the post down, old faithful, like a Volvo, boring but safe.

Ryan - bugger we didn't get that right

Two rucks with Forte up forward or benched, maybe, yeah nar, we loose maybe 40 goals for the season. Reversed with big O up forward, not really, Forte was great in the Granny but we got lucky with motivation in the occasion.

Gallop - what tha? we weren't expecting that, hmmmmmm can the kid go the distance, we get goals, we get defence but then there is the rucking bit.

Play small, catch a few teams out early with a different game plan. Yep, might work but there is still the ruck thingy.

Hippy or another tall will just rob Peter to pay Paul.

Have to admit I'm none the wiser - 5 minutes a quarter helping out in the ruck seems the key to team unity and maybe 2 goals a game average. Maybe the answer is week to week just change it. Just don't know.

Good to have options I guess. I would love to see us bite the bullet and go with Gallop. Yeah it’s heaps of pressure on Oscar but we can mitigate that potentially by doing what we do against Gawn, just work around whoever chops out at points during the game by following the opposition rucks tap game.

I think Eric eventually becomes Joe’s replacement but needs time to see how that groin is before doing it regularly.