20th AFL Team

[RedV3x]

When the Swans used to host a couple preseason games in the Hunter they got some respectable attendances.

Yes.

I'm assuming this has all gone backwards since then.

I don't know why they stopped. It seems rather senseless to me.
especially now that there are two AFL sides in Sydney to accommodate.

 

[Bjo187]

Just thinking about it. Assuming Canberra comes in, what are the big population centres that the game needs some presence in going forward, but without a permanent side there? On importance you've probably got:

• Newcastle
• Darwin
• Cairns
• Sunshine coast
• Central coast

How do we service those markets with at least 1 game each year so that they remember footy exists?

When Tasmania comes in they have to either add or take away one round. Assuming they add one, that new round could be a regional one. That's 9 games to split across those areas above.

I kinda like the idea of a second gather round coz it brings in massive amounts of money, however I've been worried about the sheer lack of presence in some of these population centres, ever since they scrapped pre season travel to these types of places (dumb move).

 

[threenewpadlocks]

What stadium do people propose games in Newcastle be played in?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Just thinking about it. Assuming Canberra comes in, what are the big population centres that the game needs some presence in going forward, but without a permanent side there? On importance you've probably got:

• Newcastle
• Darwin
• Cairns
• Sunshine coast
• Central coast

How do we service those markets with at least 1 game each year so that they remember footy exists?

When Tasmania comes in they have to either add or take away one round. Assuming they add one, that new round could be a regional one. That's 9 games to split across those areas above.

I kinda like the idea of a second gather round coz it brings in massive amounts of money, however I've been worried about the sheer lack of presence in some of these population centres, ever since they scrapped pre season travel to these types of places (dumb move).

Newcastle, the Sunshine Coast and Central Coast all don't have a suitable oval stadium. Until they each build one, there's no point worrying about taking games there. (And I wouldn't bother with the Central Coast at all really, it's the smallest of the three, growing the slowest and people there can easily drive or catch a train to Sydney to watch a game).

My idea for spreading the game is to stop teams selling games to the NT or North Queensland, and instead have a Northern Round with two games in each of Darwin, Alice Springs, Cairns and Townsville, plus one in Mackay. Then when a 20th team comes in, upgrade Mackay to two games. This ensures a fair spread of games and makes every team play a game up north to instead of just the poor ones and non-Vics. Why shouldn't the people of the NT or North Queensland be able to see Collingwood or Essendon live?

 

[Bjo187]

Newcastle, the Sunshine Coast and Central Coast all don't have a suitable oval stadium. Until they each build one, there's no point worrying about taking games there. (And I wouldn't bother with the Central Coast at all really, it's the smallest of the three, growing the slowest and people there can easily drive or catch a train to Sydney to watch a game).

My idea for spreading the game is to stop teams selling games to the NT or North Queensland, and instead have a Northern Round with two games in each of Darwin, Alice Springs, Cairns and Townsville, plus one in Mackay. Then when a 20th team comes in, upgrade Mackay to two games. This ensures a fair spread of games and makes every team play a game up north to instead of just the poor ones and non-Vics. Why shouldn't the people of the NT or North Queensland be able to see Collingwood or Essendon live?

Newcastle number 1 sports ground isn't it? Looks like it holds 10k online. Maroochydore sports complex has been used before for pre season games, could wack in some temporary stands.

I agree northern Australia needs games but I also think filling in those gaps between Sydney and Brisbane is important, as that's where growth is coming from and where a lot of population is moving. Plus it's been very under represented for a long time. Northern Australia will always have small populations I think.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Newcastle number 1 sports ground isn't it? Looks like it holds 10k online.

With 400 seats. Not good enough without a new stand.

Maroochydore sports complex has been used before for pre season games, could wack in some temporary stands.

Sure, and when they do put in more stands, I'll review. Pre-season is not the same as a regular season fixture.

I agree northern Australia needs games but I also think filling in those gaps between Sydney and Brisbane is important, as that's where growth is coming from and where a lot of population is moving.

I'm not sure what population data you're looking at. Everything I've seen tells me that Greater Melbourne, SEQ, Canberra and Perth are the fastest growing places in Australia and have been for a while now. Newcastle is well behind and the Central Coast is well behind Newcastle. The Gold Coast is by far the fastest growing city between Sydney and Brisbane, and they already have a team.

Plus it's been very under represented for a long time. Northern Australia will always have small populations I think.

It will, and I'm not proposing a permanent team there, just one round.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Newcastle number 1 sports ground isn't it? Looks like it holds 10k online. Maroochydore sports complex has been used before for pre season games, could wack in some temporary stands.

I agree northern Australia needs games but I also think filling in those gaps between Sydney and Brisbane is important, as that's where growth is coming from and where a lot of population is moving. Plus it's been very under represented for a long time. Northern Australia will always have small populations I think.

Maybe research the actual nature of the stadiums themselves in terms of facilities before blindly making declarations.

Look at where major cricket is played in these locations. Only Coffs has had games played there in recent years, because it's the only oval-shaped ground on the coast that actually has appropriate lighting, media and player changing room etc. facilities. A 2022 redevelopment of the Newcastle ground was basically just to fix up the turf.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Maybe research the actual nature of the stadiums themselves in terms of facilities before blindly making declarations.

Look at where major cricket is played in these locations. Only Coffs has had games played there in recent years, because it's the only oval-shaped ground on the coast that actually has appropriate lighting, media and player changing room etc. facilities. A 2022 redevelopment of the Newcastle ground was basically just to fix up the turf.

I think Coffs would be an interesting place to sell games to actually. Although it's not going to be big enough for a full time team in the next two centuries.

 

[Bjo187]

With 400 seats. Not good enough without a new stand.
Sure, and when they do put in more stands, I'll review. Pre-season is not the same as a regular season fixture.

I'm just going off gather round and places like Mt Barker. If they can be brought up to scratch for a regular season game you'd think those other grounds would as well. Particularly Newcastle, given its size it should want some cricket content too.

I'm not sure what population data you're looking at. Everything I've seen tells me that Greater Melbourne, SEQ, Canberra and Perth are the fastest growing places in Australia and have been for a while now. Newcastle is well behind and the Central Coast is well behind Newcastle. The Gold Coast is by far the fastest growing city between Sydney and Brisbane, and they already have a team.

Well of course the cities will grow more, I've just heard from my mate that lives in the gold coast and another mate that is holidaying in Newcastle right now, that housing developments are popping up and the house prices are going up all the way up the coast. I was referring to the growth in these locations being more potential than northern Australia anyway, not the cities.

Maybe research the actual nature of the stadiums themselves in terms of facilities before blindly making declarations.

Some of the dumb shit you've been posting lately I'll take your advice with a grain of salt.

 

[Giant YoYo]

I think Coffs would be an interesting place to sell games to actually. Although it's not going to be big enough for a full time team in the next two centuries.

Anywhere outside of Sydney footy does better.

It's heartbreaking how it's withered in Sydney. Not a surprise when Sydney has an equivalent gather round every weekend.

 

[Canberra Pear]

With 400 seats. Not good enough without a new stand.

This says as part of the stage one redevelopment, seating was increased to 790.

For Gather Round, Summit Sports Park (Mt Barker) only has 270 seats, and Lyndoch will only have 300 seats.

Hands Oval (Bunbury) only has 745 seats.

Traeger Park (Alice) only has 220 seats.

In an ideal world, Newcastle would have a 20k all-seater stadium, but 790 seats is okay for a game or two a year.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I'm just going off gather round and places like Mt Barker. If they can be brought up to scratch for a regular season game you'd think those other grounds would as well. Particularly Newcastle, given its size it should want some cricket content too.

This says as part of the stage one redevelopment, seating was increased to 790.

For Gather Round, Summit Sports Park (Mt Barker) only has 270 seats, and Lyndoch will only have 300 seats.

Didn't realise it had gone up, though I don't see a Gather Round minor venue as being a good comparison, because they're not destinations in and of themselves. Gather Round works as a concept because there are bigger venues nearby to make the big bucks, and a minor match can be shipped off to a nearby country town as part of it. However there are no major oval venues anywhere near Newcastle so the economics are very different.

Hands Oval (Bunbury) only has 745 seats.

Traeger Park (Alice) only has 220 seats.

In an ideal world, Newcastle would have a 20k all-seater stadium, but 790 seats is okay for a game or two a year.

These are fair comparisons, though I'd say both the WA and NT governments have shown more willingness to buy games than the NSW government.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Didn't realise it had gone up, though I don't see a Gather Round minor venue as being a good comparison, because they're not destinations in and of themselves. Gather Round works as a concept because there are bigger venues nearby to make the big bucks, and a minor match can be shipped off to a nearby country town as part of it. However there are no major oval venues anywhere near Newcastle so the economics are very different.

Not perfect comparisons as events, but more a comparison of the ability to upsize a smaller-capacity venue.

These are fair comparisons, though I'd say both the WA and NT governments have shown more willingness to buy games than the NSW government.

Looks like the next stage is to improve player and umpire facilities.

The City of Newcastle website said that they hoped the improvements would lead to more AFL. They didn't mention regular men's, but it means they're at least open to paying for AFL content.

The project will position the region to attract sporting fixtures such as trial Big Bash League and trial AFL fixtures.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Not perfect comparisons as events, but more a comparison of the ability to upsize a smaller-capacity venue.

They can, what I'm saying is the revenue proposition to do so is completely different. In effect I'm saying the bigger games of Gather Round subsidise the country games, and without those, there's a lot less revenue to be made.

 

[Canberra Pear]

They can, what I'm saying is the revenue proposition to do so is completely different. In effect I'm saying the bigger games of Gather Round subsidise the country games, and without those, there's a lot less revenue to be made.

Fair points. Still more applicable to Bunbury and Alice as standalone games.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

The City of Newcastle website said that they hoped the improvements would lead to more AFL. They didn't mention regular men's, but it means they're at least open to paying for AFL content.

Really wished the AFL would make all teams play their preseason matches at regional grounds in general and just promote the living end out of it as a community series like it was in the past with an additional bonus of the top team (2 rounds) winning X amount of money.

Granted, it would probably cost a lot to install broadcasting equipment like cameras at some of the grounds and some of the cities like Canberra already host GWS pre-season game but it would allow greater exposure of regional cities or towns that could have promise or support of having an AFL team in the future such as Newcastle, North Queensland or South-West Perth from occurring.

For example, teams could play their annual pre-season match at the following city / town in 5-10 years time with appropriate developments done with stadiums and facilities, if needed*:

Adelaide - (Mount Gambier, SA)
Brisbane - (Cairns, QLD)
Carlton - (Joondalup, WA)
Collingwood - (Sunshine Coast, QLD)
Essendon - (Darwin, NT)
Fremantle - (Mandurah, WA)
Geelong - (Newcastle, NSW)
Gold Coast - (Sunshine Coast, QLD)
GWS - (Canberra, ACT)
Hawthorn - (Townsville, QLD)
Melbourne - (Alice Springs, NT)
North Melbourne - (Canberra, ACT)
Port Adelaide - (Victor Harbour, SA)
Richmond - (Darwin, NT)
St. Kilda - (Barossa, SA)
Sydney - (Newcastle, NSW)
Tasmania - (Launceston, TAS)
West Coast - (Bunbury, WA)
Western Bulldogs - (Wollongong, NSW)

Altogether, this would equate to 4x in QLD (2x SEQ & 2x NQ), 3x in NSW, 3x in NT, 3x in SA, 3x in WA, 2x in ACT and 1x in TAS.

*- Should be noted that Victorian clubs would play outside of Victoria during the entire series with most of the teams playing their home matches to help grow the sporting code nationally and in particular the northern states such as ACT, NSW & NT & QLD with double ups also happening in cities such as Canberra, Darwin, Newcastle and Sunshine Coast as they are the most viable in terms of financial and population basis ATM.

 

[Giant YoYo]

Really wished the AFL would make all teams play their preseason matches at regional grounds in general and just promote the living end out of it as a community series like it was in the past with an additional bonus of the top team (2 rounds) winning X amount of money.

Granted, it would probably cost a lot to install broadcasting equipment like cameras at some of the grounds and some of the cities like Canberra already host GWS pre-season game but it would allow greater exposure of regional cities or towns that could have promise or support of having an AFL team in the future such as Newcastle, North Queensland or South-West Perth from occurring.

For example, teams could play their annual pre-season match at the following city / town in 5-10 years time with appropriate developments done with stadiums and facilities, if needed*:

Adelaide - (Mount Gambier, SA)
Brisbane - (Cairns, QLD)
Carlton - (Joondalup, WA)
Collingwood - (Sunshine Coast, QLD)
Essendon - (Darwin, NT)
Fremantle - (Mandurah, WA)
Geelong - (Newcastle, NSW)
Gold Coast - (Sunshine Coast, QLD)
GWS - (Canberra, ACT)
Hawthorn - (Townsville, QLD)
Melbourne - (Alice Springs, NT)
North Melbourne - (Canberra, ACT)
Port Adelaide - (Victor Harbour, SA)
Richmond - (Darwin, NT)
St. Kilda - (Barossa, SA)
Sydney - (Newcastle, NSW)
Tasmania - (Launceston, TAS)
West Coast - (Bunbury, WA)
Western Bulldogs - (Wollongong, NSW)

Altogether, this would equate to 4x in QLD (2x SEQ & 2x NQ), 3x in NSW, 3x in NT, 3x in SA, 3x in WA, 2x in ACT and 1x in TAS.

*- Should be noted that Victorian clubs would play outside of Victoria during the entire series with most of the teams playing their home matches to help grow the sporting code nationally and in particular the northern states such as ACT, NSW & NT & QLD with double ups also happening in cities such as Canberra, Darwin, Newcastle and Sunshine Coast as they are the most viable in terms of financial and population basis ATM.

You make far too much sense.

My deep fears is that footy has gone backwards in regional NSW due to a lack of footy presence.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

You make far too much sense.

My deep fears is that footy has gone backwards in regional NSW due to a lack of footy presence.

While RL will always be the number 1 sport in NSW and QLD til the end of time, the AFL needs to try much more harder IMO in growing the sporting code in those states (metro and regional) as NSW & QLD are vital for the growth of the competition and sport in the communities again as well as limiting the influence of the NRL as best as possible and also testing out what the potential is like for future AFL teams in those regions mentioned above in the future.

 

[Run n Spread]

Newcastle ffs now I've heard everything.
They've made precisely 0 contribution to the AFL now everyone wants a team there. If all you look for us people may as well put a team in India.
Melbourne had **** all people when teams expanded in the 20s look at Richmond and Hawthorn now.
If demand is there growth will occur. It is literally the basis for any business.
If demand isn't there doesn't matter what you do.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Newcastle ffs now I've heard everything.
They've made precisely 0 contribution to the AFL now everyone wants a team there. If all you look for us people may as well put a team in India.
Melbourne had **** all people when teams expanded in the 20s look at Richmond and Hawthorn now.
If demand is there growth will occur. It is literally the basis for any business.
If demand isn't there doesn't matter what you do.

Just shows how far Darwin is down the list.

Obviously, Darwin has more fans per capita than Newcastle, but the Hunter has almost five times the population of Darwin.

Darwin isn't 100% AFL. There's a decent NRL following there, too. It's very possible that the Hunter has as many AFL fans as Darwin.

 

[Run n Spread]

Just shows how far Darwin is down the list.

Obviously, Darwin has more fans per capita than Newcastle, but the Hunter has almost five times the population of Darwin.

Darwin isn't 100% AFL. There's a decent NRL following there, too. It's very possible that the Hunter has as many AFL fans as Darwin.

Just looking at population as a metric is the reason GWS is an abject failure the China experiment never took off and why the sport is not international.
How many players has Newcastle produced compared to the NT?
The NT lives and breathes footy while Newcastle barely knows what it is.
Arguing for a team there to discredit the NT bid is just clutching at straws.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Just looking at population as a metric is the reason GWS is an abject failure the China experiment never took off and why the sport is not international.

Is GWS an abject failure? They averaged 12k to Sydney home games this year.

Darwin doesn't even average 10k to games.

How many players has Newcastle produced compared to the NT?
The NT lives and breathes footy while Newcastle barely knows what it is.
Arguing for a team there to discredit the NT bid is just clutching at straws.

The Hunter league has 20 men's teams over two divisions, Darwin's two divisions has 12 teams.

Newcastle isn't an AFL town, but it's in no way an AFL wasteland.

And when you extrapolate that to the larger population, Newcastle's support would come close to that of Darwin's.

Total support is more important than per capita.

 

[Bjo187]

I'd actually go Newcastle over the N.T if it were a choice out of the two. I asked my mate who goes there for holidays annually (a soccer player, but a footy fan too), if he thought an afl team could work there and was surprised he said he thinks it could. I'm also surprised to hear that the Hunter competition appears relatively strong.

They haven't produced many players but arguably the best player in the comp heeney is from there. You'd think while he's still playing he is the perfect player to coattail off, to promote an annual game there.

 

[The Educator]

Just looking at population as a metric is the reason GWS is an abject failure the China experiment never took off and why the sport is not international.
How many players has Newcastle produced compared to the NT?
The NT lives and breathes footy while Newcastle barely knows what it is.
Arguing for a team there to discredit the NT bid is just clutching at straws.

The Hunter won't get a team but anyone with half a clue* would agree that it would be a better place for a team than the NT (barring a massive government contribution)

In addition to Canberra Pear 's point about it being possible there is as many footy fans in the the HUnter than darwin already, there is obviously far more scope for growth and the cost impact is much lower

*you do not have half a clue

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Something to consider with Newcastle is what the incoming reduction in demand for coal will do to the economy there. China is the biggest coal market, but it's expected to peak in coal demand in 2025 and reduce from there. They're investing massively in renewables to wean themselves off imported coal. Once energy storage becomes more effective, I can see a big reduction in coal demand.

I don't think that will mean complete devastation for Newcastle or anything, after all they survived the closure of the steel industry. But it may hamper the economy there for up to a decade, and that will reduce people's capacity to spend.