20th AFL Team

[MelbourneGWS]

With all due respect, f**k GWS.

Canberra gets more people to games than Western Sydney, why should we settle for their scraps?

The current deal screws over Canberra and Western Sydney simultaneously.



Nobody is demanding it as much as Tasmania, that doesn't mean nowhere else could sustain it.

Interestingly, Canberra has been demanding a team for longer. We were the first non-Victorian location to bid for a team, and we've been repeatedly passed over since.

We don't have a local government fawning over the AFL (to the same extent), so we're a bit behind there, but the 20th team won't have to jump through as many hoops as Tasmania. Our team would get ~$3m a year in government funding, which is more than any AFL team other than Tasmania would get.

Personally, I think a Canberra team would be as sustainable as a Tasmanian team (if not more). Canberra has fewer AFL fans than Tasmania, but more in the one city. The 2019 Gemba report indicates Canberra has 85% more AFL fans than Hobart. Will grow more with our fast population growth.

The ACT economy is already 27% larger than Tasmania's - and that excludes our NSW suburbs. ACT residents' average disposable income is 22% higher.

So we have more people in the single area likely to attend games, with more money to spend on tickets and merch.

If a Tasmania team is sustainable, so is Canberra.

We will have to agree to disagree on the benefits of GWS to Canberra. As previously stated they have made the longest lasting commitment to Canberra (21 years when their deal expires in 2032), and see themselves as Canberra’s AFL team. The ACT government also obviously agrees with Barr calling the GWS relationship to our region, a unique “co-located model”, which has been “ highly successful”.

Otherwise, agree with your other points about us being just as sustainable as Tasmania

 

[MelbourneGWS]

That's different to what I've heard, from somebody that knows footy all across the country and is heavily involved in the sanfl and the other state leagues he says gws are doing great things in Canberra with visiting schools, running clinics etc.

Absolutely! The ACT Government is very happy with this relationship with GWS as evidenced by the long 10 year arrangement we made with GWS. This is in contrast to the short term arrangements we made with Norths who have never made the same commitment that GWS have, and left to Gold Coast as soon as they were offered more $

 

[MelbourneGWS]

There's really no other better choice.

NT? Way too small of a population and the climate factor means it might not ever be viable but I hope they can eventually figure something out 30-40 years from now. Weather will likely only get warmer, though, which doesn't help.

Newcastle? They need to lay at least a decade of groundwork first but even if they did it'd be stupid to add NSW3 before GWS has time for the next generation to come through and see what happens. So anything else before 2045 from NSW would be ridiculous. Ditto QLD3: Suns need time to settle and I think they'll get there if they start playing finals.

That leaves WA3 who are the second largest footy market and due to that, would be ahead of SA3. Could it work? Maybe. Do they need another? No, not when ACT doesn't have a team.

NZ? I don't think it'd ever work, and again, they need to lay the groundwork first before they even dare try, but what the AFL needs for team 20 is something low risk that won't be a money drain and NZ would be, perhaps always.

Could always bring back Fitzroy and we go back to being the Bears haha, but then Canberra shouldn't miss out. If they aren't going to be team 20 then when will they ever get a team?

I completely agree. The logical choice for team 20 after Tasmania, is either Canberra or WA3. The latter will not promote our code as much as an AFL team in Canberra will. Unfortunately, I think the AFL will make the safer short term choice of WA3 at the expense of the longer term benefits of Canberra .

 

[Bjo187]

I've only heard the AFL and media mention N.T, which is an alarming prospect that these people in the industry actually think it's a good idea.

People need to get on the airwaves more if they wanna push the Canberra barrow.

Nobody in the media seems to read Bigfooty or the likes, they just talk aimlessly between themselves sharing their stupid uninformed ideas until someone hits them up on the radio or Twitter or something, with the statistics and facts.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I've only heard the AFL and media mention N.T, which is an alarming prospect that these people in the industry actually think it's a good idea.

People need to get on the airwaves more if they wanna push the Canberra barrow.

Nobody in the media seems to read Bigfooty or the likes, they just talk aimlessly between themselves sharing their stupid uninformed ideas until someone hits them up on the radio or Twitter or something, with the statistics and facts.

Yes, I am amazed when so called experts in the media mention NT or Northern Australia ahead of Canberra. We are ahead of them in almost every metric, including population, crowds, more afl games etc. This must be known to these pundits, and yet they think NT should come before Canberra

 

[Tigerlaird]

Agree

Bring in the Norwood-Sturt Satyrs now!!!!

Pan pipes, wine and toga parties after every win…

Norwood and Sturt are already in the AFL. They just happen to be called the Adelaide Crows.

As a fan of footy teams with a big cat for a mascot, I would much rather see a Glenelg-South Adelaide merger.

 

[terrybull]

Norwood and Sturt are already in the AFL. They just happen to be called the Adelaide Crows.

As a fan of footy teams with a big cat for a mascot, I would much rather see a Glenelg-South Adelaide merger.

Isn’t all SANFL except for Port the Crows?

In hindsight the licenses in 1991 should have gone to the two biggest SANFL teams Port Adelaide and Norwood.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I would love to see a Canberra AFL Team. I just don’t see any politicians calling for it, I don’t see the territory government lobbying for it, I don’t see community or business groups calling for it. And recent actions such as extending the contract with GWS suggest it’s not on the radar of anyone who can make it happen.

I have however seen this from Tasmania for quite some time.

I’be seen you guys trying to drum up support for a Canberra AFL team in the community. But unfortunately it seems like there is a lot of work still to go. However I don’t want to disparage you guys too much, and hope you keep it up, and maybe the media will pick it up and help to fan the flames so the passion spreads.

You are right about a lack of lobbying. It's a bit frustrating, but I do get it.

I would like the ACT government to show a bit more backbone, but Tasmania's showed their cards, showed they're desperate for a team, and they're on the hook for a fancy new stadium. Canberra being a multi-code city, the government can't put all their eggs in the AFL basket without pissing off other interest groups. The Chief Minister has said we'd be a "logical option" for the 20th team, but I haven't seen anymore support than that.

We had Jesaulenko come out in support, but it was back in 2006. I'd love a Canberran like Hird, Razor Ray, Mick Molloy to come out in support and give us a boost.

 

[Canberra Pear]

We will have to agree to disagree on the benefits of GWS to Canberra. As previously stated they have made the longest lasting commitment to Canberra (21 years when their deal expires in 2032), and see themselves as Canberra’s AFL team. The ACT government also obviously agrees with Barr calling the GWS relationship to our region, a unique “co-located model”, which has been “ highly successful”.

Otherwise, agree with your other points about us being just as sustainable as Tasmania

With a potential licence up for grabs, I think GWS holds Canberra back. The two arguments we always hear are:
1. "Canberra's a rugby town"
2. "GWS needs them"

Both of them are nonsense, but they still hurt our case.

Disregarding the 20th licence, I agree that GWS has, in general, been beneficial for Canberra. It's been better than any previous deal. But I still think we're being ripped off. We're the national capital, we were the birthplace of the founder of the sport, we've produced so many AFL greats, and we get the higher crowds. Three games a year is a bit insulting.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I've only heard the AFL and media mention N.T, which is an alarming prospect that these people in the industry actually think it's a good idea.

People need to get on the airwaves more if they wanna push the Canberra barrow.

Nobody in the media seems to read Bigfooty or the likes, they just talk aimlessly between themselves sharing their stupid uninformed ideas until someone hits them up on the radio or Twitter or something, with the statistics and facts.

These are the same media types (Eddie) that suggested North play 11 away games in Victoria (despite only having 9 Victorian opponents). Not bright, but they're noisy enough that they shape the conversation.

I've hit a few up on social media. Unfortunately, most Canberran AFL connections are actually quite quiet on socials, connected to GWS so unable to say anything, or hard to reach. Tom Green did a Q&A on the GWS Twitter account, but conveniently skipped our question. I've tried contacting Canberrans like Razor Ray, Mick Molloy, James Hird, Josh Bruce, Jack Steele, Tom Highmore, Jackson Hately, Adrian Barich and Phil Davis, but no luck yet. We'll get there though!

 

[Bjo187]

These are the same media types (Eddie) that suggested North play 11 away games in Victoria (despite only having 9 Victorian opponents). Not bright, but they're noisy enough that they shape the conversation.

I've hit a few up on social media. Unfortunately, most Canberran AFL connections are actually quite quiet on socials, connected to GWS so unable to say anything, or hard to reach. Tom Green did a Q&A on the GWS Twitter account, but conveniently skipped our question. I've tried contacting Canberrans like Razor Ray, Mick Molloy, James Hird, Josh Bruce, Jack Steele, Tom Highmore, Jackson Hately, Adrian Barich and Phil Davis, but no luck yet. We'll get there though!

Good efforts, but none of those people have a daily platform to raise the topic, you'd get more traction simply dialing in to sen Melbourne during the morning drive, or 3aw Melbourne on Saturday and state the facts to Gary and Tim or Tim lane, Caro, Leigh about why Canberra is a 10x better idea than N.T.

Actually you can email questions to hutchie on the sounding board too, he is a good one to target coz he basically controls daily sports media in Australia, he has answered some of my questions before on there too.

I bet they'll respond 'yeah but that's gws's area already', so I'd be ready with a counter to that stupid response.

 

[Macca180]

In hindsight the licenses in 1991 should have gone to the two biggest SANFL teams Port Adelaide and Norwood.

correct

* up for the ages

 

[Coolangatta]

I bet they'll respond 'yeah but that's gws's area already', so I'd be ready with a counter to that stupid response.

While we’re at it can we get a good response on the air to “there’s too many teams! The talent pool!” which have been thoroughly debunked.

The real problem is how many financially shite teams can the AFL prop up before it tears them a new one? And yes I know, Brissy is part of that problem.

As are the ACT government for a Canberra team. They need to do a Tassie and put the foot down, refuse to host GWS games or any games there after 2032 if Canberra doesn’t get a team.

Then again, the AFL could turn around and say, “Fine, no more games in Canberra then” and still run full steam ahead towards Perth 3.

I fear if the Giants want to keep playing in Canberra beyond 2032 they’ll be allowed to do so.

 

[Bjo187]

While we’re at it can we get a good response on the air to “there’s too many teams! The talent pool!” which have been thoroughly debunked.

The real problem is how many financially shite teams can the AFL prop up before it tears them a new one? And yes I know, Brissy is part of that problem.

As are the ACT government for a Canberra team. They need to do a Tassie and put the foot down, refuse to host GWS games or any games there after 2032 if Canberra doesn’t get a team.

Then again, the AFL could turn around and say, “Fine, no more games in Canberra then” and still run full steam ahead towards Perth 3.

I fear if the Giants want to keep playing in Canberra beyond 2032 they’ll be allowed to do so.

I do feel like regardless of the situation we wouldn't hear any Canberra suggestions from the AFL or ACT government regardless. They just signed a new 10 year deal, it would ruin that deal if they started a campaign for a Canberra team in the next 5 years.

In addition to that, they'll know if those discussions start we'll have a North in Hobart type situation happen to GWS, where nobody will attend games knowing their own local team is on the horizon.

 

[Coolangatta]

I do feel like regardless of the situation we wouldn't hear any Canberra suggestions from the AFL or ACT government regardless. They just signed a new 10 year deal, it would ruin that deal if they started a campaign for a Canberra team in the next 5 years.

In addition to that, they'll know if those discussions start we'll have a North in Hobart type situation happen to GWS, where nobody will attend games knowing their own local team is on the horizon.

That’s why I’m surprised that GWS got an extension, unless they have no intention of Canberra being team 20.

If they are going to put Canberra in by 2033 then we’d know at least 3 or 4 years in advance but as you basically said that’d defeat the purpose of GWS playing more games there unless they think people will still turn up for them and it doesn’t end up being North 2.0.

Alternatively, GWS don’t get games in Canberra post 2032 and someone else gets a small 3-4 year gig until Canberra comes in say around 2036 or 2037. It depends on the timing of the announcement.

If they wait until the Giants contract finishes to announce their intention of Canberra then we won’t see a Canberra team for another 15 years.

But the extension surprised me because I thought they were looking for a Canberra entrance around 2032.

 

[Bjo187]

That’s why I’m surprised that GWS got an extension, unless they have no intention of Canberra being team 20.

If they are going to put Canberra in by 2033 then we’d know at least 3 or 4 years in advance but as you basically said that’d defeat the purpose of GWS playing more games there unless they think people will still turn up for them and it doesn’t end up being North 2.0.

Alternatively, GWS don’t get games in Canberra post 2032 and someone else gets a small 3-4 year gig until Canberra comes in say around 2036 or 2037. It depends on the timing of the announcement.

If they wait until the Giants contract finishes to announce their intention of Canberra then we won’t see a Canberra team for another 15 years.

But the extension surprised me because I thought they were looking for a Canberra entrance around 2032.

Maybe they think 21 years is long enough to see if the western sydney project is worthwhile and wanna keep the Canberra relationship till then, for a seamless relocation if it isn't.

I did think a deal till 2030 would have been much smarter, but I'm gathering they want the perception gws is in Canberra for the long haul to retain/ attract supporters in the capital.

I'd hope they are having discussions in the background and aren't seriously thinking it's N.T for team 20. I mean, surely the AFL isn't that stupid. It basically goes against their whole reasoning and strategy behind bringing gws in (population, tv, participation, sponsorship, potential).

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I do feel like regardless of the situation we wouldn't hear any Canberra suggestions from the AFL or ACT government regardless. They just signed a new 10 year deal, it would ruin that deal if they started a campaign for a Canberra team in the next 5 years.

I actually think that the Barr government is ok with there being no full time AFL team in Canberra. They are happy with the “co-location” model of GWS having Canberra as one of their two home regions, and playing 3-4 games here. Hence, unlike Tasmania and even NT, there hasn’t been any overt ACT government lobbying or funding commitments for us having a full time team here.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

That’s why I’m surprised that GWS got an extension, unless they have no intention of Canberra being team 20.

If they are going to put Canberra in by 2033 then we’d know at least 3 or 4 years in advance but as you basically said that’d defeat the purpose of GWS playing more games there unless they think people will still turn up for them and it doesn’t end up being North 2.0.

Alternatively, GWS don’t get games in Canberra post 2032 and someone else gets a small 3-4 year gig until Canberra comes in say around 2036 or 2037. It depends on the timing of the announcement.

If they wait until the Giants contract finishes to announce their intention of Canberra then we won’t see a Canberra team for another 15 years.

But the extension surprised me because I thought they were looking for a Canberra entrance around 2032.

I would have thought that the best scenario for the AFL would have been team 20 starting in 2032 in time for the new media deal? This would mean 10 games a week and lead to a better media deal. The timelines of the GWS deal until 2032, meant that the AFL had to agree and sign off on the deal by the Barr government and GWS. It would seem to indicate that if there was going to be team 20 starting in 2032, it will not be Canberra?

 

[Bjo187]

I actually think that the Barr government is ok with there being no full time AFL team in Canberra. They are happy with the “co-location” model of GWS having Canberra as one of their two home regions, and playing 3-4 games here. Hence, unlike Tasmania and even NT, there hasn’t been any overt ACT government lobbying or funding commitments for us having a full time team here.

Where is this Barr character initially from? He might be a rugby person and knows if the AFL come in there with a full time team, they will be biggest show in town.

 

[Coolangatta]

Maybe they think 21 years is long enough to see if the western sydney project is worthwhile and wanna keep the Canberra relationship till then, for a seamless relocation if it isn't.

I did think a deal till 2030 would have been much smarter, but I'm gathering they want the perception gws is in Canberra for the long haul to retain/ attract supporters in the capital.

I'd hope they are having discussions in the background and aren't seriously thinking it's N.T for team 20. I mean, surely the AFL isn't that stupid. It basically goes against their whole reasoning and strategy behind bringing gws in (population, tv, participation, sponsorship, potential).

They aren't. For the AFL, it's about the business and financial case. Now, GWS and Gold Coast at the time they came in were not financially viable, but you're talking about population areas of 3 million each respectively, so long-term they could be great investments, but can they really afford to bankroll another team for 20, 30 odd years when GWS and Gold Coast will take decades to potentially become self-sufficient?

Because that's what would happen with the NT, they'd be a financial blackhole for 25-30 years at least if they entered in 2032-3. Not a good business decision, but then again WA3 isn't a risk free slam dunk either because converting Eagles supporters is going to be very difficult.

I think it will be them though, and that Canberra is the backup relocation option for the Giants if Western Sydney fails. I think it'll succeed, though, but the AFL wants one generation to determine that, which means unless they wait until early-mid 2040s to bring in team 20, it'll come from somewhere else.

I would have thought that the best scenario for the AFL would have been team 20 starting in 2032 in time for the new media deal? This would mean 10 games a week and lead to a better media deal. The timelines of the GWS deal until 2032, meant that the AFL had to agree and sign off on the deal by the Barr government and GWS. It would seem to indicate that if there was going to be team 20 starting in 2032, it will not be Canberra?

Maybe but the new media deal begins in 2025 and Tasmania doesn't enter until 2027 (you'd think they're home now). So 2032 wouldn't have to be necessarily when Canberra comes in, it could be 2034 or 2035, because the new media deal will probably run until 2037, or maybe longer than that if they know there'll be 10 games per week.

Sounds to me like it's up to the ACT government. If they're passive in the future then team 20 will come from where there's a huge push. It still could be NT because the AFL might be willing to fund them for 20-30 years until they're on their feet. I don't see the Giants or Suns being financially independent in just 10 years, though, but maybe the AFL is hoping one of them will be and they're willing to fund a new project in addition to the one that's still struggling. But if that's the case we can't rule out Newcastle either which would just suck.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Where is this Barr character initially from? He might be a rugby person and knows if the AFL come in there with a full time team, they will be biggest show in town.

Andrew Barr will next year be our longest serving Chief Minister in history. He is a Hawthorn fan. I just think he is constrained by Canberra being a multicode city

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Maybe they think 21 years is long enough to see if the western sydney project is worthwhile and wanna keep the Canberra relationship till then, for a seamless relocation if it isn't.

I did think a deal till 2030 would have been much smarter, but I'm gathering they want the perception gws is in Canberra for the long haul to retain/ attract supporters in the capital.

I'd hope they are having discussions in the background and aren't seriously thinking it's N.T for team 20. I mean, surely the AFL isn't that stupid. It basically goes against their whole reasoning and strategy behind bringing gws in (population, tv, participation, sponsorship, potential).

Despite views by some in the media, including Eddie McGuire, it should be obvious that Canberra will always be a better candidate for expansion than NT. It’s WA3 that I think is the biggest competition to Canberra being team 20. WA3 is an easy short term win in an Aussie Rules heartland, and the AFL can then cover secondary regional markets across the country through the poorer Victorian selling 2-3 home games

 

[Coolangatta]

Despite views by some in the media, including Eddie McGuire, it should be obvious that Canberra will always be a better candidate for expansion than NT. It’s WA3 that I think is the biggest competition to Canberra being team 20. WA3 is an easy short term win in an Aussie Rules heartland, and the AFL can then cover secondary regional markets across the country through the poorer Victorian selling 2-3 home games

But is it? Will they convert enough Eagles supporters?

What's more likely to succeed, a popular WAFL club playing at Optus, or a new franchise that can get people who barrack for different WAFL clubs to support them?

I see a few options: Joondalup/Perth Falcons, Perth Royals, Perth Quokkas or some catchy new name. But I'm not sure it's an easy short term win.

Still, I wouldn't be shocked if WA3 gets in and then the next expansion cycle in the 2040s or whenever is Canberra and the NT, but then the AFL can be campaigners and might look to Newcastle instead.

 

[Tigerlaird]

Isn’t all SANFL except for Port the Crows?

In hindsight the licenses in 1991 should have gone to the two biggest SANFL teams Port Adelaide and Norwood.

Yes, Crows are the catch-all club for South Australians. After Port successfully gained entry to the AFL in ‘97, they came to represent anyone who was not a Port supporter.

That’s why the showdown is so fierce, because it represents the fight between many clubs vs one.

Port and Norwood in the AFL would have made a lot of sense as they were the big clubs in SA at the time.

I wonder how different the AFL franchises for Port and Norwood would be. What mascot and nickname would Norwood have chosen I wonder


I do believe the showdown contains the spirit of the Port-Norwood rivalry, but these days most people just grow up supporting either Crows or Port without any consideration for SANFL allegiances.

Despite having the catch-all crows in the comp, I know plenty of people from other SANFL clubs that support the Power, as I guess the club has gone on to represent the blue collar class of Adelaide rather than just the suburb of Port Adelaide.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Something that needs to be considered when trying to determine the AFL’s thinking on Team 20.
(1) The four less financially secure Victorian clubs will continue to be supported, and thus there is no incentive for them to relocate or merge - St Kilda in 2023 are not even continuing with their ONE game in Cairns but instead playing all their games in Victoria.
(2) AFL will continue to support GWS and Gold Coast, but may not have the appetite to also have team 20 come from outside the non-Aussie Rules heartlands

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