20th AFL Team

[Canberra Pear]

I think a Southwest WA team would be much cooler than a Joondalup team, but less economically viable.

The Southwest has less than 200k people. The larger number of 374k cited would have to include Mandurah. Still a small base for a team, and spread over a large area.

I assume Mandurah is in Freo territory? It's just as far to Optus as it is to Bunbury, and much closer to Freo.

The two benefits of a WA3 team are large population/economics and taking away fans from West Coast. A Southwest team has/does neither.

 

[Rob]

I think a Southwest WA team would be much cooler than a Joondalup team, but less economically viable.

The Southwest has less than 200k people. The larger number of 374k cited would have to include Mandurah. Still a small base for a team, and spread over a large area.

I assume Mandurah is in Freo territory? It's just as far to Optus as it is to Bunbury, and much closer to Freo.

The two benefits of a WA3 team are large population/economics and taking away fans from West Coast. A Southwest team has/does neither.

I doubt Mandurah is anyone's team TBH. I reckon neither team would get more than a thousand or so coming from Mandurah from a game (might get a couple of hundred more once the train can go straight through to Optus). You'd get even less going to Bunbury for a game cos you'd need to drive.

The shame of Bunbury is that it's roughly the same size as Ballarat but it's no chance of getting AFL games as either WA team would lose 7 figures taking a game there.

 

[Canary]

I doubt Mandurah is anyone's team TBH. I reckon neither team would get more than a thousand or so coming from Mandurah from a game (might get a couple of hundred more once the train can go straight through to Optus). You'd get even less going to Bunbury for a game cos you'd need to drive.

The shame of Bunbury is that it's roughly the same size as Ballarat but it's no chance of getting AFL games as either WA team would lose 7 figures taking a game there.

This kind of highlights the absurdity of the current situation, in which it's beneficial for a smaller Vic club to take a game to Ballarat, but a third WA team (which could theoretically take a game to the South West) is considered unfeasible.

 

[Rob]

This kind of highlights the absurdity of the current situation, in which it's beneficial for a smaller Vic club to take a game to Ballarat, but a third WA team (which could theoretically take a game to the South West) is considered unfeasible.

Maybe, but that just shows that it's a lot harder to get out of the league than it is to get into it. 4 Victorian clubs require large cash injections every year just to operate. No way is the AFL admitting a club needing the same thing from an area that already follows the game, that's why it was so difficult for Tassie. They needed 8 figure annual government guarantees and a kickass stadium just to get a look in.

 

[Coolangatta]

Maybe, but that just shows that it's a lot harder to get out of the league than it is to get into it. 4 Victorian clubs require large cash injections every year just to operate. No way is the AFL admitting a club needing the same thing from an area that already follows the game, that's why it was so difficult for Tassie. They needed 8 figure annual government guarantees and a kickass stadium just to get a look in.

I'm not a fan of these relic Vic clubs being propped up by the AFL. I know none of them are "small" anymore, but they've been around for over a hundred years, they shouldn't be getting extra assistance anymore. If they can't operate, **** em. And it's not just because of the lack of prime time fixtures; as far as I know, North and St Kilda would get more Friday night and other prime time slots if they performed better on field. You want the big games, earn it.

 

[Rob]

I'm not a fan of these relic Vic clubs being propped up by the AFL. I know none of them are "small" anymore, but they've been around for over a hundred years, they shouldn't be getting extra assistance anymore. If they can't operate, * em. And it's not just because of the lack of prime time fixtures; as far as I know, North and St Kilda would get more Friday night and other prime time slots if they performed better on field. You want the big games, earn it.

It is what it is. I'm more concerned about the lack of accountability than the handouts themselves. Clubs are given millions of dollars with seemingly no pressure to actually curtail spending or even move in the right direction financially.

 

[Bjo187]

I was listening to the mark duffield suggestion on sen from a few days ago about a 3rd w.a team being in the south west. He makes some good points, however I think the issues are:

• it doesn't look like the population is very centralised and it's 2 hours from the city not 1 like Geelong is.
• the population would still be less than the north perth/Joondalup area, but wouldn't grab fans from the rest of Perth like the north team would be able to.
• getting good government funding if Optus stadium is only getting used say 5x more than it is now might be an issue.
• The cost would be more because you need a new stadium built.
• the start up supporter base would be better, but the growth potential not as great as nw/Joondalup/ Perth.

But the main one is, if the afl want another regional team instead of a city one, wouldn't they just go with Canberra? They have a more centralised population that is bigger in number, it pushes the game further across the barrasi line and it is an unserviced market.

So while I like the idea of duffield and appreciate his innovation, I think the club being located in North Perth would be more appealing to the afl. If there weren't already a million teams in the comp, his idea might be more appealing to the afl, but I don't think they'll want another regional team in a place that is already footy mad.

 

[Rob]

Just a point on population, in Perth more people live South than North. The demographic centre of Perth is in Como, about 5km south of Perth.
Not that the 3rd team should be south either though.

 

[Bjo187]

Just a point on population, in Perth more people live South than North. The demographic centre of Perth is in Como, about 5km south of Perth.
Not that the 3rd team should be south either though.

What's projected to grow more, north or south? Also what's more of a footy friendly demographic? I mean population only matters if you can actually attract those people as fans.

 

[Rob]

What's projected to grow more, north or south? Also what's more of a footy friendly demographic? I mean population only matters if you can actually attract those people as fans.

I don't know TBH. Probably more south if I was to guess, especially if you include Mandurah. A lot of it would be in the east as well, like the areas around Ellenbrook and Byford (i.e where new rail lines are currently being built).
Wouldn't have thought there's much of a difference in terms of being footy friendly either. The reason why North would be favoured is because it would be more likely to eat into the Eagles fanbase. Which IMO isn't much of an argument.

 

[Coolangatta]

I don't know TBH. Probably more south if I was to guess, especially if you include Mandurah. A lot of it would be in the east as well, like the areas around Ellenbrook and Byford (i.e where new rail lines are currently being built).
Wouldn't have thought there's much of a difference in terms of being footy friendly either. The reason why North would be favoured is because it would be more likely to eat into the Eagles fanbase. Which IMO isn't much of an argument.

That is the argument, that they can get a lot of Eagles members locked out of games to jump ship.

If they don’t manage that, there’s every chance that WA3 lags behind for decades.

That’s why I’ve said we need to know from actual Eagles members what they’ll do. The Eagles supporters who don’t go to the live games or rarely go to them are most likely just going to keep supporting the Eagles.

 

[Canberra Pear]

That is the argument, that they can get a lot of Eagles members locked out of games to jump ship.

If they don’t manage that, there’s every chance that WA3 lags behind for decades.

That’s why I’ve said we need to know from actual Eagles members what they’ll do. The Eagles supporters who don’t go to the live games or rarely go to them are most likely just going to keep supporting the Eagles.

Has there been a poll in the Eagles forum?

A pre-made group of passionate Eagles fans. Could potentially provide a good sample size and indication.

 

[Bjo187]

Has there been a poll in the Eagles forum?

A pre-made group of passionate Eagles fans. Could potentially provide a good sample size and indication.

I don't think you'd put it there though, the peer group pressure would have everybody say no. If the afl were smart they'd send out a survey on a different topic to all on the waiting list and throw the question in there. That's how you'd generate a more reliable response.

The problem is, the eagles probably prefer to keep it all to themselves and have 20k on their waiting list than have a viable third club in their market. You'd think for the good of the game in w.a they'd see past that, but footy clubs are weird. Look at the swans taking buddy ahead of gws as an example. It would have been better for the game in nsw if Franklin became a giant.

 

[catters05]

Canberra for 2030.

GWS need to play all games in West Sydney to slowly get decent support in that market. Play games at the Blacktown oval if need be as well if required.

 

[catters05]

I wonder if AFL will try again with North for a move to WA, they already have some good support over there? AFL would then get Canberra and 3rd WA without going over 20 teams.

 

[Coolangatta]

I wonder if AFL will try again with North for a move to WA, they already have some good support over there? AFL would then get Canberra and 3rd WA without going over 20 teams.

We would never, ever, accept a Victorian side as our own.

Sadly, someone is going to miss out. I’d rather it be us who already have two teams than ACT.

I honestly have no idea to this day who it’ll be because they both have hurdles, Canberra in terms of what the AFL might demand and Perth in terms of whether there’s actual strong public support for it and whether the WAFC/Eagles/Dockers will back it or not.

So I guess you can’t count out Norwood if both of them drop out but I reckon Canberra and Perth will both be interested when push comes to shove and then it’ll be up to the AFL.

Of course, the other factor is how well the Giants do off field. If we can’t win the flag this year I hope they do or Freo.

 

[Rob]

That is the argument, that they can get a lot of Eagles members locked out of games to jump ship.

If they don’t manage that, there’s every chance that WA3 lags behind for decades.

That’s why I’ve said we need to know from actual Eagles members what they’ll do. The Eagles supporters who don’t go to the live games or rarely go to them are most likely just going to keep supporting the Eagles.

I don't think it will work like that at all. Most Eagles fans don't live in Joondalup, and those that do wouldn't particularly identify with Joondalup. It's not some unique city with a history or culture. It's just general Perth suburbia.

I wonder if AFL will try again with North for a move to WA, they already have some good support over there? AFL would then get Canberra and 3rd WA without going over 20 teams.

Not only would that fail miserably, why would North even do that? The AFL pay their bills at the moment and will continue to. Why relocate when you don't have to?

 

[Coolangatta]

I don't think it will work like that at all. Most Eagles fans don't live in Joondalup, and those that do wouldn't particularly identify with Joondalup. It's not some unique city with a history or culture. It's just general Perth suburbia.

I agree, which is why I don’t think WA3 would be the roaring success that some think it will be. But some disagree and argue that Joondalup would activate the north v south of the river rivalry, and that there are people in Joondalup who hate the Dockers with a passion but aren’t represented by the Eagles either because they aren’t based north of the river.

Yeah nah, Eagles are the de-facto state side, if you don’t back them, it’s because you have another side you already barrack for or you don’t care about footy at all.

I really think a third WA side would be better off based in Busselton, but not yet. The South West doesn’t have the population or good enough infrastructure linking to Perth yet. Give Canberra the 20th team and WA3 can be part of another future expansion cycle in a few decades.

But if WA3 is team 20, I imagine it will be called Perth something and just try and be Eagles 2.0.

Good luck in trying to poach enough Eagles members, though. It will take decades to get going I bet, why not just wait until Fremantle is maxed out with a waiting list at 70k capacity Optus?

Then it won’t matter if WA3 accidentally takes away Dockers supporters as much as it does Eagles.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I don't think it will work like that at all. Most Eagles fans don't live in Joondalup, and those that do wouldn't particularly identify with Joondalup. It's not some unique city with a history or culture. It's just general Perth suburbia.

Not only would that fail miserably, why would North even do that? The AFL pay their bills at the moment and will continue to. Why relocate when you don't have to?

It'd be a huge disadvantage to play Freo and West Coast at Optus, but if you have North playing two games there, they'd probably get 20k WA members, and bigger crowds than they'd get for those game in Melbourne or Bendigo.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

It'd be a huge disadvantage to play Freo and West Coast at Optus, but if you have North playing two games there, they'd probably get 20k WA members, and bigger crowds than they'd get for those game in Melbourne or Bendigo.

Yeah but the overheads of playing games at Optus are much higher so a 12k crowd in Bendigo would most likely be more profitable than a 20-25k at Optus.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

I agree, which is why I don’t think WA3 would be the roaring success that some think it will be. But some disagree and argue that Joondalup would activate the north v south of the river rivalry, and that there are people in Joondalup who hate the Dockers with a passion but aren’t represented by the Eagles either because they aren’t based north of the river.

Yeah nah, Eagles are the de-facto state side, if you don’t back them, it’s because you have another side you already barrack for or you don’t care about footy at all.

I really think a third WA side would be better off based in Busselton, but not yet. The South West doesn’t have the population or good enough infrastructure linking to Perth yet. Give Canberra the 20th team and WA3 can be part of another future expansion cycle in a few decades.

But if WA3 is team 20, I imagine it will be called Perth something and just try and be Eagles 2.0.

Good luck in trying to poach enough Eagles members, though. It will take decades to get going I bet, why not just wait until Fremantle is maxed out with a waiting list at 70k capacity Optus?

Then it won’t matter if WA3 accidentally takes away Dockers supporters as much as it does Eagles.

Ideally, the AFL will want a Darwin/NT team as the 20th entity for the socio-economic benefits similar to the future Cairns/PNG team in the NRL soon and that they would have a sporting presence across all of Australia. However, the cost and funding associated to a club would be sky high yearly (35-40 million estimate) and it probably would be more feasible if a joint-venture between a Victorian club would work better IMO even if it’s not popular to some.

Given the AFL reluctance of playing it risky this time around, it will most likely come down to $$$$$$$$$$ at the end of the day, not long-term growth of the sporting code until 21st and 22nd teams come in. Therefore, the only appropriate options so far would be WA3 (Perth/Joondalup), SA3 (Norwood) and ACT (new stadium or redevelopment needed) with NQ (Cairns/Townsville) and NSW3 (Newcastle) being very unlikely now.

 

[Rob]

I agree, which is why I don’t think WA3 would be the roaring success that some think it will be. But some disagree and argue that Joondalup would activate the north v south of the river rivalry, and that there are people in Joondalup who hate the Dockers with a passion but aren’t represented by the Eagles either because they aren’t based north of the river.

Haha what?
I doubt there is 1 person that used to be a West Coast fan that stopped because they based themselves in Lathlain.

 

[Coolangatta]

Haha what?
I doubt there is 1 person that used to be a West Coast fan that stopped because they based themselves in Lathlain.

Yeah it’s a ridiculous argument.

 

[Coolangatta]

Ideally, the AFL will want a Darwin/NT team as the 20th entity for the socio-economic benefits similar to the future Cairns/PNG team in the NRL soon and that they would have a sporting presence across all of Australia. However, the cost and funding associated to a club would be sky high yearly (35-40 million estimate) and it probably would be more feasible if a joint-venture between a Victorian club would work better IMO even if it’s not popular to some.

Given the AFL reluctance of playing it risky this time around, it will most likely come down to $$$$$$$$$$ at the end of the day, not long-term growth of the sporting code until 21st and 22nd teams come in. Therefore, the only appropriate options so far would be WA3 (Perth/Joondalup), SA3 (Norwood) and ACT (new stadium or redevelopment needed) with NQ (Cairns/Townsville) and NSW3 (Newcastle) being very unlikely now.

7 game Darwin deal would be good, yes. Anyone got a billion to offer North?

Yeah I think NQ and Newcastle are unlikely.

It’ll probably be WA3 and either no more teams after that or not a 21st for 50 more years.

Ideally I’d like ACT, NT and NQ.

The other issue with WA3 is lack of draft zoning. A lot of WA players play over east. With a 3rd WA team, if they don’t put in a mechanism to keep more WA players from going interstate then it’ll weaken the teams even more, not that the AFL give a shit.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

7 game Darwin deal would be good, yes. Anyone got a billion to offer North?

Yeah I think NQ and Newcastle are unlikely.

It’ll probably be WA3 and either no more teams after that or not a 21st for 50 more years.

Ideally I’d like ACT, NT and NQ.

The other issue with WA3 is lack of draft zoning. A lot of WA players play over east. With a 3rd WA team, if they don’t put in a mechanism to keep more WA players from going interstate then it’ll weaken the teams even more, not that the AFL give a s**t.

Always thought a Northern Kangaroos team would be fascinating in the competition with their 5 biggest home matches being played in Melbourne while the rest up in Darwin / Alice Springs so it could help the club have an increased fanbase and financial situation in two different states and the sport would have a foothold in NT without committing full-time.

But after all, this is the AFL and they are more interested in greed than growth, just look at the Tassie debacle.

Don’t understand the hype behind WA3 tbh as the 20th entity and will probably be a Perth ……………. located in the Northern metro areas and would play all their matches in the shiny new Perth stadium for $$$$$$$$ as why would want officials wanna name a club called Joondalup when they can just name it something much more simpler.

Same with the hype of SA3 (Norwood), but because I live in Adelaide that I wouldn’t mind another club for more footy in the state alone even though it wouldn’t benefit any other states in the meanwhile.

Still think if Manuka Oval gets redeveloped or new Civic stadium built into a 20-25k stadium, Canberra would be my preference but they really need to kick GWS out of Canberra and play in their own state before any serious considerations are in place for ACT.