20th AFL Team

[Rob]

I see.

Yes, they could start off with 3 games in Darwin and 1 in Alice Springs against the Dees, as the Dees want to play in Alice for the good of the NT community. That's pretty much exchanging their 4 Hobart games for 4 NT games. So with the Dees also playing in Alice Springs, the NT would get 5 games per year.

It would be cool to see North move up to something like 9 Darwin games, 1 Alice Springs, 1 Melbourne, and one away Alice Springs game against the Dees. Have 8 away games in Melbourne against big drawing clubs, giving their members free Kayo and more access to away games. That's 9 Melbourne games. Not sure the Dees would want to continue to play the Roos in Alice Springs though, as by that stage, the Roos would probably get access to the best available NT talent and would play the conditions much better than Melbourne would.

That's not cool at all, it would mean all the other Victorian teams get to play them in Melbourne and every other team has the energy sapping trip to Darwin.

 

[Coolangatta]

That's not cool at all, it would mean all the other Victorian teams get to play them in Melbourne and every other team has the energy sapping trip to Darwin.

Ah, shit, yeah, you're right.

Roos to Canberra instead, much less taxing.

FWIW, I'd much rather see new teams for ACT, NT, and WA3, but since NT is probably never going to be viable, give it to Brisbane 2 instead. But I do think we need to go to 22 teams eventually because ACT and WA3 are needed imo.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

I'm not going to give you an in depth history lesson, but the NRL mergers weren't formed from struggling clubs per se. In fact it was much more political than that, and St. George, Balmain, and Manly were among the clubs that were better off after the SL war. The failure of the mergers have been on multiple fronts, but a major problem all three of them faced was/has been their failure to pick a homebase and choosing to spilt games between grounds. Sure the Tasmanian AFL side's situation won't be exactly the same as the mergers, but it will suffer from similar issues where it pertains to home grounds, and could stand to learn a lot from them as a result.

We'd need to look at the Super Rugby Clubs if we want to talk about how successful 'state-based' clubs have been traditionally, and that discussion wouldn't be great for your argument either. I'm not really interested in that discussion though.

I don't really have a strong opinion on Tasmania or the Tasmanian side, nor am I saying that a Tasmanian AFL side is a bad idea, that the team is doomed to failure, or anything of the sort. The only reason this discussion came up is because I said that I think Canberra will be a stronger market than Tasmania in the not too distant future, maybe as soon as 15-20 years from now, and I stand by that and think the facts bear that out.

Thanks for sparing me the lecture, because I really couldn’t give two shits about rugby league or union. The huge discrepancies in memberships and average attendances between these codes and the amount of professional football clubs in Sydney (compared to the one that will exist in Tasmania) indicates that there’s little relevancy in the comparisons.

You have had some rather strong opinions on the Tasmanian side. You’re certainly entitled to these, but I disagree with your assertion of the team’s likelihood to become mundane and taken for granted by the locals.

I place greater emphasis on the opinions of those who have prepared the business case, worked for decades in the AFL industry &/or lived in Tasmania and understand the culture of the place and its footy history. The vast majority of people from these groups are reading from the same hymn sheet in regards to the Tassie team; its base, identity, where it plays home games etc.

Executive Director of the club, Kath McCann said in an interview this morning "We don't need to replicate a model of another club, or another place, because we're our own place," she said.

"It's really working with the AFL team to understand that, and there's no better way to do that than actually to get them here (to Tasmania).

I’m really optimistic that this the right strategy for this particular club. Give it another decade and we’ll know for sure what they got right and what they got wrong.

New Tassie team's colours, nickname set to be announced

Tasmania's AFL club will officially be launched in March ahead of its entry into the competition in 2028

www.afl.com.au

 

[Canberra Pear]

A lot of regional involvement will depend on how much money is available from regional governments.

Wagga has held a few preseason games and an AFLW game. The best I can find is that Wagga Council paid $100k for a preseason match a decade ago.

The going rate for a regular season men's game is more like $800k to $1m. No way to tell at the moment if they'd be able to pay for that, but it's a big leap between prices.

 

[Coolangatta]

A lot of regional involvement will depend on how much money is available from regional governments.

Wagga has held a few preseason games and an AFLW game. The best I can find is that Wagga Council paid $100k for a preseason match a decade ago.

The going rate for a regular season men's game is more like $800k to $1m. No way to tell at the moment if they'd be able to pay for that, but it's a big leap between prices.

Yes, money is the only thing the Riverina has to offer Canberra. If they don't pay, they don't play.

Now, I do think Canberra should get access to the Riverina players. Like you said, they could give the NT academy to GWS, as the Suns won't need it.

As far as Canberra playing 2-3 games in the Riverina area, though, I don't think that should happen unless they pay, and who's to say a club like North or St Kilda won't play there instead if they need the money.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Yes, money is the only thing the Riverina has to offer Canberra. If they don't pay, they don't play.

Now, I do think Canberra should get access to the Riverina players. Like you said, they could give the NT academy to GWS, as the Suns won't need it.

As far as Canberra playing 2-3 games in the Riverina area, though, I don't think that should happen unless they pay, and who's to say a club like North or St Kilda won't play there instead if they need the money.

I don't think it'd hurt to throw Wagga some free preseason matches. It would be a gesture of good will considering Canberra would likely still represent the region via an academy. But yeah, unless Wagga's got a big budget, regular season matches would probably hurt Canberra's finances.

 

[Coolangatta]

I don't think it'd hurt to throw Wagga some free preseason matches. It would be a gesture of good will considering Canberra would likely still represent the region via an academy. But yeah, unless Wagga's got a big budget, regular season matches would probably hurt Canberra's finances.

Same thing with Albury, right?

Seems to me Canberra is better off playing all its 11 home games at an upgraded Manuka unless they have a financial incentive to do otherwise.

It's just a matter of the ACT pushing hard to bid for a team in the near future instead of being content with the Giants deal, because there's no guarantee the AFL will approach the ACT government about diddly squat.

If the NT bid fails and I think it will, and the ACT doesn't act, they'll probably set up something like the Joondalup Falcons. It would be a shame, although sometimes I think if it did go down that way, there's no reason the AFL couldn't be more aggressively expansive and add Canberra and Norwood to the AFL, all before 2050.

That way, you've got traditional footy markets getting more service, and a viable growth market in the ACT.

AFL can then sit on 22 teams and not consider expansion until anyone of NZ/NSW/QLD/NT can bring something worthwhile to the table.

There's no reason why it can't be done in reverse, but I cannot imagine the AFL expanding to 22 teams and teams 21 and 22 are from WA and SA. Although, you never know.

 

[Bjo187]

It's not just about money though, it's about grabbing fans from those areas by going back there every year. It will make them feel the club represents them more than any of the other 18.

The more fans you have the better, it doesn't matter as much these days where they come from, as long as they are watching on tv, buying merchandise, likes on social media etc etc, it makes a club a lot stronger the more fans they have and forsaking 2 games a year in Canberra to significantly increase the supporter base is simply good business.

 

[Coolangatta]

It's not just about money though, it's about grabbing fans from those areas by going back there every year. It will make them feel the club represents them more than any of the other 18.

The more fans you have the better, it doesn't matter as much these days where they come from, as long as they are watching on tv, buying merchandise, likes on social media etc etc, it makes a club a lot stronger the more fans they have and forsaking 2 games a year in Canberra to significantly increase the supporter base is simply good business.

Then why wouldn't the Giants just stick with Canberra then, if the both parties are happy with the deal and choose to extend it?

Is it because the Sydney market is far larger than the Canberra market, therefore it's worth going full-time there instead of playing 8 games there?

Do you think Canberra is big enough to go full time? I think they could pull it off.

I'm not sure Riverina people would get behind Canberra, they'd probably still support other clubs, including clubs who play them there.

Even if they do, is 9 games a year going to be enough for the people of Canberra to get behind their team? Because it's more important that the ACT club actually captures the ACT than anywhere else, especially in a smaller market. If they don't achieve that, it won't matter how much Riverina support they get.

 

[Canberra Pear]

It's not just about money though, it's about grabbing fans from those areas by going back there every year. It will make them feel the club represents them more than any of the other 18.

The more fans you have the better, it doesn't matter as much these days where they come from, as long as they are watching on tv, buying merchandise, likes on social media etc etc, it makes a club a lot stronger the more fans they have and forsaking 2 games a year in Canberra to significantly increase the supporter base is simply good business.

It's a fine line to walk.

You obviously want to go for the biggest catchment you can, but you risk alienating your primary market (GWS is the perfect example of this).

The Raiders play 11 or 12 games a year in Canberra (depending on the Magic Round draw). Playing only nine games in Canberra hamstrings an AFL team in its primary market.

I kind of like the idea of Canberra being the away team like the Suns have been the away team in Cairns.

 

[Coolangatta]

It's a fine line to walk.

You obviously want to go for the biggest catchment you can, but you risk alienating your primary market (GWS is the perfect example of this).

The Raiders play 11 or 12 games a year in Canberra (depending on the Magic Round draw). Playing only nine games in Canberra hamstrings an AFL team in its primary market.

I kind of like the idea of Canberra being the away team like the Suns have been the away team in Cairns.

Yeah, the Victorian clubs should cover the secondary markets. They'll all still get at least 11-12 games in Melbourne a year, North still gets 12 a year with their current Hobart deal.

If they can't/won't, then I don't think these secondary markets should get anything more than pre-season games, including Darwin, harsh as it sounds.

I do like the idea of top end round if Darwin can't get anything at all, though, but it's probably not remotely close to the profitable venture I think it could be.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

It's not just about money though, it's about grabbing fans from those areas by going back there every year. It will make them feel the club represents them more than any of the other 18.

The more fans you have the better, it doesn't matter as much these days where they come from, as long as they are watching on tv, buying merchandise, likes on social media etc etc, it makes a club a lot stronger the more fans they have and forsaking 2 games a year in Canberra to significantly increase the supporter base is simply good business.

In regards to the finances, it also depends what the break even attendance for an upgraded Manuka would be. IIRC, the break even for Mac Point will be 14k for a 23k capacity venue. It’s certainly an easier figure than what Melbourne clubs have to attain at their larger capacity venues.

If games in Canberra against lower demand opposition like Gold Coast, Freo and Tassie were at risk of falling below break even numbers then it would make sense to shift them for the guaranteed cash from a regional council. However, if these games would be profitable in Canberra then the main justifications for shifting them would be the reasons that you suggested. Would that be enough reason to do it? I guess then we’d need to look at membership numbers and club revenue for Canberra v opposition clubs.

I keep coming back to Tassie, because they’re the next cab off the rank (so comparable for #20) and it’s a context I understand more intricately. Colin Carter said that if the Tasmanian Gov sponsored the club to the tune of about $10pa then it would place them in the middle of the bottom third of the AFL’s wealth ladder (e.g. above Gold Coast and GWS, but on about the same level as the Roos and Saints). The Tas government has committed to funding to the tune of $12pa for the first 12 years of the club.

North will lose $3-4m pa after leaving Tassie and potentially some of their approx 6k members down there. They’ll need to find alternative revenue sources to replace this over the next few years. The Giants and Suns already receive $6-7m pa more from the AFL than clubs who receive the next most amount of assistance, and that’s with their respective deals in Canberra and Darwin.

The numbers for team 20 will need to stack up and with a small market, start up club then they’ll probably need to be getting some extra funding from somewhere (be that ACT gov or a combination of ACT gov and Riverina councils). I doubt the AFL will be prepared to have another club with significantly higher ASD funding while the Suns and Giants are still requiring so much support from them.

Revealed: Where your club sits on AFL’s $276m ladder... and who’s getting the most help

Where your club sits on AFL’s $276m ladder as league’s wealth divide explained

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Bjo187]

Then why wouldn't the Giants just stick with Canberra then, if the both parties are happy with the deal and choose to extend it?

Is it because the Sydney market is far larger than the Canberra market, therefore it's worth going full-time there instead of playing 8 games there?

Do you think Canberra is big enough to go full time? I think they could pull it off.

I'm not sure Riverina people would get behind Canberra, they'd probably still support other clubs, including clubs who play them there.

Even if they do, is 9 games a year going to be enough for the people of Canberra to get behind their team? Because it's more important that the ACT club actually captures the ACT than anywhere else, especially in a smaller market. If they don't achieve that, it won't matter how much Riverina support they get.

Because Western Sydney has 3 million people to feed and a massive catchment already. I wouldn't like to see more games at showgrounds, I'd like to see the Canberra games go 2 to Henson park and 1 to Blacktown. It's also in traveling distance for a western sydney fan if they are keen to go, where as Canberra isn't. Out of site out of mind.

Albury and wagga are a doable trip for Canberra fans that are keen to not miss those two extra home games. But yes if a Vic club wants to play Canberra in Albury as a home game I'm happy with that too.

 

[Coolangatta]

Because Western Sydney has 3 million people to feed and a massive catchment already. I wouldn't like to see more games at showgrounds, I'd like to see the Canberra games go 2 to Henson park and 1 to Blacktown. It's also in traveling distance for a western sydney fan if they are keen to go, where as Canberra isn't. Out of site out of mind.

Albury and wagga are a doable trip for Canberra fans that are keen to not miss those two extra home games. But yes if a Vic club wants to play Canberra in Albury as a home game I'm happy with that too.

And what if Canberra want to play all their games at Manuka instead of 1 each in Wagga and Albury?

You could argue that as a startup club, they might chase $$$ elsewhere, but it'd have to be good money.

I don't think there's any need for the Riverina to have home and away games, unless, as we agree, a Vic club wants to play there. And they probably don't.

 

[Canberra Pear]

And what if Canberra want to play all their games at Manuka instead of 1 each in Wagga and Albury?

You could argue that as a startup club, they might chase $$$ elsewhere, but it'd have to be good money.

I don't think there's any need for the Riverina to have home and away games, unless, as we agree, a Vic club wants to play there. And they probably don't.

Albury definitely presents a better case for regular season games. Quite a bit bigger, and more footy focus (Wagga is mixed code).

It's mentioned in the Third Stadium thread that North is looking at potentially playing a game each in Bendigo and Albury after they leave Hobart.

Canberra would make sense for the Albury away team. North v Canberra at Marvel isn't going to be a big crowd. North would want to play all Victorian opposition in Melbourne to boost crowds. And there aren't many direct flights from other cities. Canberra seems the obvious opposition there.

Also, Coolangatta, welcome to reddit.

 

[Coolangatta]

Albury definitely presents a better case for regular season games. Quite a bit bigger, and more footy focus (Wagga is mixed code).

It's mentioned in the Third Stadium thread that North is looking at potentially playing a game each in Bendigo and Albury after they leave Hobart.

Canberra would make sense for the Albury away team. North v Canberra at Marvel isn't going to be a big crowd. North would want to play all Victorian opposition in Melbourne to boost crowds. And there aren't many direct flights from other cities. Canberra seems the obvious opposition there.

Also, Coolangatta, welcome to reddit.

Hahaha, what gave it away, top end round? Gee Reddit AFL is a tough crowd, there's a few angry Vic's who are livid at the fact that if any club could play games away from Melbourne and not be impacted by its main market, it's them.

And apparently, you're insane to think that the Giants not getting a game in Sydney for two months and the Suns not getting one in Gold Coast for a month negatively impacts the growth of the game in their markets at all.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Hahaha, what gave it away, top end round? Gee Reddit AFL is a tough crowd, there's a few angry Vic's who are livid at the fact that if any club could play games away from Melbourne and not be impacted by its main market, it's them.

And apparently, you're insane to think that the Giants not getting a game in Sydney for two months and the Suns not getting one in Gold Coast for a month negatively impacts the growth of the game in their markets at all.

Haha, I had an inkling based on the timing, but top end round sealed it.

I think reddit is momentum-based. If the first few comments are negative or start with downvotes, people tend to join in and pile on.

Interestingly, r/afl is fully off the NT as a concept as well. A post a couple of days ago pushed Darwin as the 20th team and got heavily refuted. It got no upvotes (most posts get at least a couple). A few Darwin posts have been made in the past year with the same result. Reddit's a tough crowd, but they probably have the biggest crossover with bigfooty.

 

[Coolangatta]

Haha, I had an inkling based on the timing, but top end round sealed it.

I think reddit is momentum-based. If the first few comments are negative or start with downvotes, people tend to join in and pile on.

Interestingly, r/afl is fully off the NT as a concept as well. A post a couple of days ago pushed Darwin as the 20th team and got heavily refuted. It got no upvotes (most posts get at least a couple). A few Darwin posts have been made in the past year with the same result. Reddit's a tough crowd, but they probably have the biggest crossover with bigfooty.

Well, not everyone's against it, and I take some responsibility if I can't convince them that the Suns and Giants need to play all 11 games in their own home cities.

That's not necessarily on them, but... I can tell most of them are from Victoria haha. The argument about the Saints not getting to play in Marvel until round 6, therefore it's the same as the Giants not playing in Sydney for an extended period of time is ridiculous.

 

[magpienato]

A Riverina team has always been a big dream of mine. Not sure how it would work logistically, maybe games shared between Albury, Canberra and other regional hotspots. I think the support would be there, but the money is another issue. I think it would be appealing players who are looking for something closer to home and want to get out of the big smoke and get a paddock or two under the table. Anyway, it's a more forward-thinking idea that won't reap much benefits in the short term, but there's power in the idea of a united regional team in the long term.

 

[neogh]

What weather, terrain and fauna best symbolise the ACT and its surroundings?

Thinking of a platypus as a mascot

 

[Coolangatta]

What weather, terrain and fauna best symbolise the ACT and its surroundings?

Thinking of a platypus as a mascot

Cockatoos.

 

[neogh]

Cockatoos.

But birds

 

[Coolangatta]

But birds

Yeah, but if the shoe fits. It’d be a pretty cool mascot, certainly a contender, but not as powerful as owls.

Don’t look up what one of the main emblems of the Northern Territory is.

Um… let’s just say the Northern Kangaroos would… nah, let’s not traumatise the North supporters even more.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

Um… let’s just say the Northern Kangaroos would… nah, let’s not traumatise the North supporters even more.

 

[Colonial]

Because Western Sydney has 3 million people to feed and a massive catchment already. I wouldn't like to see more games at showgrounds, I'd like to see the Canberra games go 2 to Henson park and 1 to Blacktown. It's also in traveling distance for a western sydney fan if they are keen to go, where as Canberra isn't. Out of site out of mind.

Albury and wagga are a doable trip for Canberra fans that are keen to not miss those two extra home games. But yes if a Vic club wants to play Canberra in Albury as a home game I'm happy with that too.

No to Henson.

Everyone says we can’t play at Giants Stadium during the Show and that the 5/6 week gap is too long to be out of Sydney.
Easy fix is to have our away Derby during that period and if still not enough play a game against a lower drawing team at Blacktown.