20th AFL Team

[bigleague]

Is this the same NRL that openly rejected the Bears attempts to re-join the NRL for 20 years until PVL, who lives in North Sydney and has noted affection for the Bears, became chairman of the ARLC?

The same PVL who repeatedly said things like "Forget wasting millions in rusted-on AFL states. We must undertake a full analysis [of growth markets] but Perth does not have a huge league audience." of expanding to Perth until the prospect of forcibly linking them with the Bears became realistic?

The same PVL who initially forced the pre-existing Perth bid, who were highly regarded by the rest of NRL community and had been considered a shoe-in for a license for years, into talks with the Bears, then killed them with outrageous demands when it seemed like they wouldn't just hand everything over to the Bears?

The same PVL who then held an NRL license to ransom in negotiations with the WA government in no small part over the Bears involvement?

Yeah, the 'NRL will control the club, it isn't about North Sydney, so it'll be fine' stuff is spin, and largely spin coming from pundits that've pushed for the Bears return for Years. PVL, and by extension the current NRL administration's, intentions are crystal clear.

Furthermore, nobody in their right mind would go to efforts to make Sydney teams appealing to West Coast viewers, so why should Perth teams have to be appealing to Sydneysiders to justify their existence? Perth/WA teams should be for the people of Perth/WA, and the fact that isn't the first concern with the Perth Bears should tell you everything you need to know.

RL's biggest issue in this country has always been people from Sydney's inability to understand that they aren't the centre of the universe, and not everything has to revolve around them. This Bears situation is just another example of that overreach in practice.

The nrl & pvl for all their faults know the bears will never return to Sydney. Sydney has too many teams as it is, any talk that may eventuate about ‘bringing the bears home’ will just be external noise, it’s just not realistic. It will either work in Perth or it will fold.

I agree with you that it should be a Perth team in full, I was only making the point that the nrl see the bears link as a way of making those Perth games more attractive to the eastern market, and from their point of view it’s a safety net that justifies the club beyond any local interest in Perth, which may take decades.

 

[RedV3x]

Because you're cherry picking examples to make your point.

Chetty-picking ? What professional sport am I missing.
Glory, Force and Reds, all had good early crowds and then died.
Cricket and Australian Football are traditional and strong.
The Wildcats and Ferns are doing well.
That only leaves the Heat which failed because the ABL failed because somebody bought the national rights and promptly buried it.

You're not actually observing a pattern, you're just selecting outlier examples to support your argument.

The pattern that I observe is that Sandgropers have initial curiosity then get bored.

Codes and sports being synonyms in this context isn't the gotcha you seem to think it is.

I have no idea of what you're trying to say.

Isn't RL a 'code' with it's own appeal?

It appeals to some.

Won't most of their supporters in Perth also end up following Aussie Rules?

Most supporters will be Sydney expats and they use the word "hate" w.r.t. AFL.

Why are you treating it as if it's some unique entity,

it's not really unique is it - as it's a breakaway of rugby union.

and not just another sport like all the others?

But it isn't like the others is it - it's similar to rugby union.

 

[Rob]

I can't believe the support that South West WA gets.

From what I can tell, the first major mention was posted by the mayor, but he admitted it was tongue-in-cheek. But it's just grown legs from there.

It was spoken about on Fox Footy the other day.

They talk about the South West "booming" and cite that it has more people than Darwin. But that's a very low bar. A Darwin bid is predicted to have a funding gap of $15m and would need massive government funding. There's no chance of a South West team attracting any similar levels to an NT bid, so comparing its population to Darwin is irrelevant.

The South West has ~200k. Spread over a pretty big area. Some of that population is two hours away from Bunbury. If Canberra was including that, Batemans Bay and Young would be in our immediate catchment and suddenly Canberra would have ~800k people.

I know the South West is growing fast, but no chance they'll have enough people by the time the 20th team comes.

To be fair, there's 100k in Bunbury and 40k half an hour away in Busselton. It's only a small number more than that away in the South West region. It's more comparable to Ballarat than it is Darwin or Canberra.

And I don't think anyone is serious about a full time team, at least not yet. Maybe in 30 years.

 

[Canberra Pear]

To be fair, there's 100k in Bunbury and 40k half an hour away in Busselton. It's only a small number more than that away in the South West region. It's more comparable to Ballarat than it is Darwin or Canberra.

And I don't think anyone is serious about a full time team, at least not yet. Maybe in 30 years.

Yeah, I heard it framed as "across the South West" making it bigger than Greater Darwin. 140k across those two would make it pretty on par with Darwin.

There are definitely some serious about it now. But surely none in AFL House though.

Will be interesting to see how the region develops over the next few decades.

 

[Coolangatta]

Yeah, I heard it framed as "across the South West" making it bigger than Greater Darwin. 140k across those two would make it pretty on par with Darwin.

There are definitely some serious about it now. But surely none in AFL House though.

Will be interesting to see how the region develops over the next few decades.

I’ve always thought it’d be a great option for a 22nd club if there’s nowhere obvious or viable to expand after team 21.

Canberra is overdue.

21 you would think the way things are going, a second club in Brisbane or a Sunshine Coast club or they might do some split variation of the two.

22 is where the South West could come in. 8 SW, 3 Optus would be a good balance and parallels Geelong’s 8-3 split of home games which works well for them.

But who knows what will happen that far ahead, it’s just ludicrous they’re talking about the NT or SW WA when we’ve seen how hard it’s been for Tassie.

WA can afford to build the stadium, sure, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see a SW side draw 15k+ a game because people will come from Perth and fly over from east to watch but it’s still a much smaller market than Canberra and offers no real growth of the code.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I’ve always thought it’d be a great option for a 22nd club if there’s nowhere obvious or viable to expand after team 21.

Canberra is overdue.

21 you would think the way things are going, a second club in Brisbane or a Sunshine Coast club or they might do some split variation of the two.

22 is where the South West could come in. 8 SW, 3 Optus would be a good balance and parallels Geelong’s 8-3 split of home games which works well for them.

But who knows what will happen that far ahead, it’s just ludicrous they’re talking about the NT or SW WA when we’ve seen how hard it’s been for Tassie.

WA can afford to build the stadium, sure, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see a SW side draw 15k+ a game because people will come from Perth and fly over from east to watch but it’s still a much smaller market than Canberra and offers no real growth of the code.

I hoenstly think all the while Barr is in the position he is, Canberra won't get it's own team as he appears to be in love with GWS for reasons unknown to me and possibly others

 

[Coolangatta]

I hoenstly think all the while Barr is in the position he is, Canberra won't get it's own team as he appears to be in love with GWS for reasons unknown to me and possibly others

Sad, if true, and if that turns out to be the case, it’s gonna have to be WA3 but based in Perth.

I still reckon North Perth Sharks would be a money maker, popular brand, mascot; get the club affiliated with West Perth Falcons or chuck them straight into the AFL reserves (no WAFL) and they’d do well.

Just gotta get them entrenched in Joondalup community involvement so they feel like a genuine NoR side.

SW WA is madness before 2050.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I hoenstly think all the while Barr is in the position he is, Canberra won't get it's own team as he appears to be in love with GWS for reasons unknown to me and possibly others

I don't think that's the issue.

Andrew Barr was significant in the Giants coming to Canberra at the beginning. He was Sports Minister at the time. They fought hard for the Giants to come as they knew it was in our interest to get as much of an AFL team as we could.

But that was before a 20th team was even a possibility. At that stage it looked like we'd be locked in with 18 teams indefinitely, so it was in our interest - and Barr's - to grow the relationship with the Giants.

Barr has since said that Canberra would make sense for the 20th team.

He's a politician, he's toed the line, but in the same article that the Giants CEO was calling themselves "Canberra's AFL team", Barr said nothing of the sort.

In fact, he spruiked Canberra's credentials and said: “At some point in the future the AFL will consider adding a twentieth team to the national competition, a team representing the broader Canberra region (ACT and Southern NSW) would have to be in the mix for consideration.”

Barr's not going to trash the relationship he's spent so long trying to convince a mix-code town is a good deal. But he also knows what a big deal getting an AFL side would be. I've seen no indication that he would pick the Giants over a 20th side if given the choice.

The loudest politicians and the loudest bids are coming from those that need to make the noise. I'd like Barr to be more vocal, but I'm still happy with the direction he's taking (comments like the above, getting Manuka upgraded).

SW WA is madness before 2050.

Tbh, even 2050 is pretty soon. It's growing quicker than the rest of Australia, but it's still only predicted to be 300k by 2050.

 

[catters05]

The success of today's game in Bunbury proves a smaller passionate footy mad city can support a team. 75000 population for 14000 in. That could double with Darwin. A game in Alice 1 or 2 in Cairns and they're sorted. All Canberra's argument seems to be is we have people. Need to demonstrate there footy credentials

Canberra has the federal money, afl use the club to get closer to that.

 

[Bjo187]

Canberra has the federal money, afl use the club to get closer to that.

I don't think it really matters, it's more dependant upon who the prime minister is as to the funding a sport gets, as per Albanese and his love for the NRL.

The AFL are at a major disadvantage here as 90% of prime minister's come from Sydney and if not Queensland. Susan Ley is an AFL fan, but she's unlikely to get in next election, so the NRL will continue to get favorable treatment. Vlandy's literally has Albanese on speed dial I read in an AFR article a few months ago.

 

[catters05]

I don't think it really matters, it's more dependant upon who the prime minister is as to the funding a sport gets, as per Albanese and his love for the NRL.

The AFL are at a major disadvantage here as 90% of prime minister's come from Sydney and if not Queensland. Susan Ley is an AFL fan, but she's unlikely to get in next election, so the NRL will continue to get favorable treatment. Vlandy's literally has Albanese on speed dial I read in an AFR article a few months ago.

Another reason to get closer though. Won’t hurt.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Another reason to get closer though. Won’t hurt.

I don't think a Canberra team has any advantage with federal funding.

But I do think having a Canberra team can help the AFL itself with federal funding and political will.

Albo and Dillon were spotted together at the Giants vs Hawks game last year. It could only be a good thing if we had four times as many opportunities for that to occur.

 

[Badger17]

The nrl & pvl for all their faults know the bears will never return to Sydney. Sydney has too many teams as it is, any talk that may eventuate about ‘bringing the bears home’ will just be external noise, it’s just not realistic. It will either work in Perth or it will fold.

I agree with you that it should be a Perth team in full, I was only making the point that the nrl see the bears link as a way of making those Perth games more attractive to the eastern market, and from their point of view it’s a safety net that justifies the club beyond any local interest in Perth, which may take decades.

They don't need to actually relocate for the threat of it to completely derail the club, nor would the NRL and PVL's opinion on it prevent speculation or attempts being made.

I flat out reject that making the club more 'attractive to the eastern market' (Sydney; say what you mean) is a 'safety net', as the Bears involvement was clearly the motivation for the club's whole existence from PVL's perspective, but for sake of argument let's say I agree for a second.

How does a safety net function in this context if it's not intended as a fall back should the business in Perth struggle/fail?
The answer is that it doesn't...

Can we please also keep in mind that the Bears were the only party that were given guarantees by PVL when the original bid fell through. Why is that? Because resurrecting the Bears was PVL's and the NRL's main aim, and Perth was dispensable in that goal.

Furthermore, none of PVL, the NRL, or the club itself has been willing to reveal how many home games they intend on playing at NSO/Sydney. Why? Because they don't want to be locked into a hard number...

You're being way too charitable to both PVL and the Ruby League establishment more generally. The issues caused by the Bears involvement with the Perth side aren't flaws, they're design features.

 

[Badger17]

Canberra has the federal money, afl use the club to get closer to that.

The ACT regularly gets shafted in Federal spending actually.

It's actually become a pretty big issue with pretty much all the federally owned infrastructure outside the Parliamentary Triangle having fallen into various states of disrepair since self-governance, and the federal government chronically underestimating the ACT's population for generations undercutting our share of federal spending further.

There's even been cases where the federal government have refused to pay for mistakes they were responsible for in the ACT, like the whole Mr Fluffy saga for example.

The fact of the matter is that spending money in Canberra simply isn't a vote winner at the national level.

 

[RedV3x]

I hoenstly think all the while Barr is in the position he is, Canberra won't get it's own team as he appears to be in love with GWS for reasons unknown to me and possibly others

yes, you've said this before but the facts are

GWS Giants crowd figures soar in Canberra as Chief Minister Andrew Barr calls for consideration as 20th AFL team​

 

[Canberra Pear]

Proponents of a third Perth team have said it's to cater for the demand for footy in Perth.

I've been told they'll average 30k and get sell outs against West Coast and Freo.

Last night the stadium was half empty. Against a local team.

I have no doubt Perth needs more footy, but last night didn't indicate that it needed 50% more footy.

North playing games over there negates the need in the shorter-term for a third team. It provides an extra 70k seats a year and reduces travel the same amount a third team would have.

Longer-term, Optus should be expanded to 70k as it was designed to do. That should negate any need for a third team until the next round of expansion.

 

[Coolangatta]

Proponents of a third Perth team have said it's to cater for the demand for footy in Perth.

I've been told they'll average 30k and get sell outs against West Coast and Freo.

Last night the stadium was half empty. Against a local team.

I have no doubt Perth needs more footy, but last night didn't indicate that it needed 50% more footy.

North playing games over there negates the need in the shorter-term for a third team. It provides an extra 70k seats a year and reduces travel the same amount a third team would have.

Longer-term, Optus should be expanded to 70k as it was designed to do. That should negate any need for a third team until the next round of expansion.

Yeah I think it’s worth looking at a 3rd club in Perth in 20-25 years, the Dockers need to be getting West Coast sized crowds at, as you say, 70k Optus.

 

[RedV3x]

I have no doubt Perth needs more footy,

With the significant upgrades at almost all WAFL grounds and WAFL being on FTA
I see WAFL and WAFLW increasingly providing an alternative.

but last night didn't indicate that it needed 50% more footy.

That is cherry-picking a bit.

North playing games over there negates the need in the shorter-term for a third team. It provides an extra 70k seats a year and reduces travel the same amount a third team would have.

So long as NM is happy to do that then Sandgropers will be happy.

Longer-term, Optus should be expanded to 70k as it was designed to do. That should negate any need for a third team until the next round of expansion.

Yes, I'd much prefer too huge W.A. teams dominating the competition than two and half effective teams.

 

[Run n Spread]

Southern Australia is now heading into a brutal winter.
In an elite level sport this has to have an effect on training performance skill and the standard of game. It's where current teams in warmer climates will have a natural advantage.
Putting that to one side the 20th team is basically contingent on Tassie coming in. Which I think will. But if the so called "cold climate " means their state is bankrupted as a result with a roofed stadium what does that say about Canberra? The ACT winter climate is worse. Do we need another roofed stadium fiasco?
Darwin offers a national balance a natural climate advantage in the winter months and is absolutely passionate about footy with growth potential to cater for the whole North of the continent. An obvious choice

 

[Bjo187]

I encourage people not to take the bait this time.

 

[davidgoes4wce]

Southern Australia is now heading into a brutal winter.
In an elite level sport this has to have an effect on training performance skill and the standard of game. It's where current teams in warmer climates will have a natural advantage.
Putting that to one side the 20th team is basically contingent on Tassie coming in. Which I think will. But if the so called "cold climate " means their state is bankrupted as a result with a roofed stadium what does that say about Canberra? The ACT winter climate is worse. Do we need another roofed stadium fiasco?
Darwin offers a national balance a natural climate advantage in the winter months and is absolutely passionate about footy with growth potential to cater for the whole North of the continent. An obvious choice

My only question about Darwin, is would it appeal to a young person to spend the majority of their careers there? You could probably make the same case for Canberra but Canberra has the advantage of being in the middle of two of populous cities in Australia.

And yes you do have a good point about the weather side of things. As someone that has spent large proportions of time in: Canberra, Sydney, Perth, Melbourne and Brisbane/Gold Coast........ as well.

The game between Hawks v Crows last week probably built a case more for a roof. The AFL want a high scoring , fast flowing style of football. Games like last week are not a good marketing tool from their side eg less ads in particularly for prime-slot games.

 

[Canberra Pear]

And yes you do have a good point about the weather side of things. As someone that has spent large proportions of time in: Canberra, Sydney, Perth, Melbourne and Brisbane/Gold Coast........ as well.

No they don't. If you're making a pros and cons list for Darwin, weather isn't going on the pros side.

 

[Run n Spread]

No they don't. If you're making a pros and cons list for Darwin, weather isn't going on the pros side.

And Canberra's is?

 

[Run n Spread]

My only question about Darwin, is would it appeal to a young person to spend the majority of their careers there? You could probably make the same case for Canberra but Canberra has the advantage of being in the middle of two of populous cities in Australia.

And yes you do have a good point about the weather side of things. As someone that has spent large proportions of time in: Canberra, Sydney, Perth, Melbourne and Brisbane/Gold Coast........ as well.

The game between Hawks v Crows last week probably built a case more for a roof. The AFL want a high scoring , fast flowing style of football. Games like last week are not a good marketing tool from their side eg less ads in particularly for prime-slot games.

It will appeal to some not to others.
Even some players now are moving to gc from Melbourne for better weather and an outdoor lifestyle.
Aside from that there are no shortages of players willing to move to live their dream
Dangle enough money and odds increase

 

[Canberra Pear]

And Canberra's is?

I never tried to claim Canberra's weather as a pro as you just did for Darwin.

But yeah, for most of the season, Canberra's weather is more conducive to playing footy than Darwin.

It's winter and it's still 30-degrees-plus all week in Darwin.