21 disposals 10 marks enough for the Otten haters?

marty36

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Geelong maybe as they go a more mobile 2nd forward which an Otten would be more comfortable against then Hartigan if we decide to go Talia v Hawkins (though I'd be more comfortable with a Hartigan v Hawkins matchup).

GWS it doesn't seeing their perchance for the very strong forwards.

Really though I'd like us to rotate both depending on matchups (similar to specialist pitchers in baseball) but equally I doubt AFL is ready for that.

What Im saying if Otten proves his worth against Geelong will it knock Harto off his perch, against GWS you would almost consder play Harto, Otten and Talia with the land of giants forward line they have where no one is under 200cm
 
What Im saying if Otten proves his worth against Geelong will it knock Harto off his perch, against GWS you would almost consder play Harto, Otten and Talia with the land of giants forward line they have where no one is under 200cm

Actually, the more I think about it, it doesn't. Hartigan is our most valuable defender against Geelong due to Hawkins reliance on size/strength which is Hartos game (and a weakness of Talia/Otten/Lever).

Against a Bulldogs for instance (as well as a few other clubs) Otten is definitely more valuable as Hartigan gets exposed when it isn't strength that is being the main thing.
 

marty36

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Actually, the more I think about it, it doesn't. Hartigan is our most valuable defender against Geelong due to Hawkins reliance on size/strength which is Hartos game (and a weakness of Talia/Otten/Lever).

Against a Bulldogs for instance (as well as a few other clubs) Otten is definitely more valuable as Hartigan gets exposed when it isn't strength that is being the main thing.


You could be right but Harto will not be available for the Geelong game thats a given, the ball is in Otten's court if he can perform well it could be enough to push Harto out of the team, as recent form is best form, if he fails your opinion will be justified
 
You could be right but Harto will not be available for the Geelong game thats a given, the ball is in Otten's court if he can perform well it could be enough to push Harto out of the team, as recent form is best form, if he fails your opinion will be justified

As said I doubt it. Ideally it could relegate Hartigan to only playing on favorable matchups which would be certainly have its benefits due to the rarity of gorilla forwards mind you.
 

mick500

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Correct because he is our cover. When Hartigan is match fit, Otten will get dropped until the next player gets injured.

Probably the perfect depth player for a contender actually.
And that is absolute horseshit. Where's the reward for performing when we need him most?

And I still maintain he's a more skilled and composed player than Hartigan by a long way anyway.
 
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Otten was fantastic on the weekend, credit where credit is due. Ditto Jake Kelly who clearly set a new benchmark for himself.

The challenge, particularly for the slower and cumbersome Otten is to do it against a good forward line in normal weather conditions. If he consistently pulls that off then bloody brilliant!! We all just want a flag and if Lever is leaving and GWS injuries this might be our best shot for a long time...if Otten performs up to standard that's a huge win.

However, finals are king. All the debates/opinions on players like Otten, Kelly, Douglas, Jacobs cannot be settled till finals.

Mackay and Thompson I'd argue are different cos it's so obvious.
 
And that is absolute horseshit. Where's the reward for performing when we need him most?

And I still maintain he's a more skilled and composed player than Hartigan by a long way anyway.

Is he a more skilled and composed player then Talia, and Lever?

They are the players he's competing with for a spot, not Hartigan as Hartigan value is in covering their weaknesses to forwards that rely on strength, and a general flexibility with matchups. Otten struggles as much, if not more against these types of player then Talia/Lever due to Otten 3rd tall size.

That's the situation Otten is in, the matchups/roles he'll succeed at regularly, we already have better players for. The one spot that we can look at replacing is his weakness as a player which limits, to completely stops any chance of being a permanent best 22 member; unless Lever is gone of course.
 
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And that is absolute horseshit. Where's the reward for performing when we need him most?

And I still maintain he's a more skilled and composed player than Hartigan by a long way anyway.
I would've argued your second point in the past but Hartigan has regressed this year and Otten's disposal on the weekend was very assured. No slow, loopy kicks over heads (Mackay style) but precise passing hitting the spot...hope he keeps it up!
 
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Is he a more skilled and composed player then Talia, and Lever?

They are the players he's competing with for a spot, not Hartigan as Hartigan value is in covering their weaknesses to forwards that rely on strength, and a general flexibility with matchups.

I'll give you 3 chances to guess what Ottens weakness as a defender is.
He's certainly far more skilled than Talia with ball in hand but your point remains...all 3 of our talls with Otten in the side are slow and I fear we will get exposed at some point.

The next 3 weeks will be fascinating.
 

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Otten was fantastic on the weekend, credit where credit is due. Ditto Jake Kelly who clearly set a new benchmark for himself.

The challenge, particularly for the slower and cumbersome Otten is to do it against a good forward line in normal weather conditions. If he consistently pulls that off then bloody brilliant!! We all just want a flag and if Lever is leaving and GWS injuries this might be our best shot for a long time...if Otten performs up to standard that's a huge win.

However, finals are king. All the debates/opinions on players like Otten, Kelly, Douglas, Jacobs cannot be settled till finals.

Mackay and Thompson I'd argue are different cos it's so obvious.
Big help for Otten coming out of defence a lot of it is straight lining the ball.
 
He's certainly far more skilled than Talia with ball in hand but your point remains...all 3 of our talls with Otten in the side are slow and I fear we will get exposed at some point.

The next 3 weeks will be fascinating.

It's not that they are slow, it's that they are all very similar defenders; with very similar strengths/weaknesses.

Ironically, being slow is the least of their worries, seeing all three match up well on mobile forwards. None really suit the super strong forwards though (Talia can hold his own but isn't suited to this style seeing it takes away a lot of his strengths, Lever and Otten at this stage can't).
 
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Big help for Otten coming out of defence a lot of it is straight lining the ball.
Yep.

If I was an opposition coach I'd try to get him deep and one-out...but that's easier said than done these days.

To compare Otten v Hartigan there's no chance Andy could ever play on Robbie Gray, that's the difference. As long as coaches have the balls to select on a needs basis and replace him with Doedee/Cheney if required against certain forward lines.
 
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It's not that they are slow, it's that they are all very similar defenders; with very similar strengths/weaknesses.

Ironically, being slow is the least of their worries, seeing all three match up well on mobile forwards. None really suit the super strong forwards though (Talia can hold his own but isn't suited to this style seeing it takes away a lot of his strengths, Lever and Otten at this stage can't).
Talia can match the super strong forwards no worries, he's just a bit off the boil this season.

I think Otten suited to slower, taller 2nd forwards than mobile forwards like Gunston.
 
Talia can match the super strong forwards no worries, he's just a bit off the boil this season.

I think Otten suited to slower, taller 2nd forwards than mobile forwards like Gunston.

As said, he's competent (and competent enough to slaughter most of the 2nd rate gorilla forwards) but it's not a matchup that is favourable. After all, majority of the players that do well against him (Hawkins, Danniher etc) have the strength to take Talia out of his comfort zone.
 

marty36

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Yep.

If I was an opposition coach I'd try to get him deep and one-out...but that's easier said than done these days.

To compare Otten v Hartigan there's no chance Andy could ever play on Robbie Gray, that's the difference. As long as coaches have the balls to select on a needs basis and replace him with Doedee/Cheney if required against certain forward lines.


The forward lines Im concerned about for the rest of the year are Sydney, West Coast, Melbourne and Geelong, Sydney generally have two talls, as do West Coast Melbourne and Geelong. So he will be required in everyone of those games and if we meet GWS come finals that goes without saying taking on the land of the giants

You would always go in with two talls minimum it gives you an enormous advantage as they say tall guys dont get shorter, you might even go in with three against GWS who knows
 

crowsup

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He's certainly far more skilled than Talia with ball in hand but your point remains...all 3 of our talls with Otten in the side are slow and I fear we will get exposed at some point.

The next 3 weeks will be fascinating.

Wasn't the bolded section used by someone here, against Otten's selection for last week? Or, are we now saying that we were wrong in thinking that the dogs' small forward brigade would kill our slow defence?
I don't know who's the better defender between Harto and Otten, but we should be careful on how we justify our disagreeing with the selectors.
Some times.:$:D
 
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As said, he's competent (and competent enough to slaughter most of the 2nd rate gorilla forwards) but it's not a matchup that is favourable. After all, majority of the players that do well against him (Hawkins, Danniher etc) have the strength to take Talia out of his comfort zone.

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with the assertion that Hartigans needed for the stronger key forwards. Also that Hartigan is stronger than Talia in such situations. From my observations, whilst Hartigan has great size and definition to his muscles, Talia is the superior when it comes to positioning, judging flight of the ball, core strength and thus ability to hold position. Hartigan's only strength over Talia is his pace and possibly agility.

Talia has been schooling the likes of Hawkins and Patton since his 1st game.

The reason the club's been giving Hartigan the big jobs is they're trying to make Talia into a more offensive, intercept, zone off type defender. Talia works against the higher key forwards, whilst Hartigan works on the deeper key forward, who is often the beast key forward. Hartigan doesn't have the smarts and is too prone to brain fades to even be considered for this role.

Talia probably isn't really suited to this role either, his natural game has always to be a shut down defender, similar to Rutten. Also similar to Rutten, I've noted Talia relishes the big roles and often gets a little lazy and is prone to lapses in concentration against lesser light key forwards.

I think it's been pretty obvious from the beginning that Pyke prefers a more offensively minded CHB who can take incercwpt grabs and set up plays from the back half. Exhibit A was the Roos game, his first game as coach where we went in sub Hartigan against the 3 tall forwards of the Roos. The form of Hartigan last year and our lack of a naturally offensive KPD has meant that we've gone with 2 defensively minded KPDs over Pykes preferred set up.

I think we'll see Talia step up significantly in the absence of Hartigan. He'll be given the big roles and will re establish himself as the best stopper in the comp.

If Otten can show some reasonable form in the CHB role, it would not surprise me at all to see Hartigan struggle to return to the 2's. The challenge is Otten's traditionally struggled with the genuine shut down roles which are often required of the 2nd KPD.
 
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As said, he's competent (and competent enough to slaughter most of the 2nd rate gorilla forwards) but it's not a matchup that is favourable. After all, majority of the players that do well against him (Hawkins, Danniher etc) have the strength to take Talia out of his comfort zone.

When exactly have Hawkins/Daniher exploited this supposed lack of strength of Talia? I certainly remember Daniher giving Hartigan a fair run around earlier in the year. On the flip side Hawkins has his worst goal per game ratio of any side against the Crows(15 goals from 11 games), in a career where he's largely been lined up against Talia.
 

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Hartigan looks to have lost his confidence. At the moment if I had to choose I would choose Otten because of his versatility. If we get an injury in the forward line Otten can be the swing man and Kelly take on the 3rd tall defender role. Not ideal but at least it's an
Option that we don't get with Harto.
 
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