- Apr 4, 2018
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What was the score?
Would be good to include the final scores in the opening post.
Would be good to include the final scores in the opening post.
VFL 2nd Semi Final - Carlton v Brisbane Sat Sept 3rd 12.05PM @ Moreton Bay Sports Complex
- Thread starter Aphrodite
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Just wondering if you could point me In the direction of his last block of 4 games straight, played in the midfield (not on a wing), so I too can correctly access him.
Do not bring a reasoned argument into this debate.
He’s s**t, highlighted by the last game played out of position in a side that played horribly.
VFL form only applies to others
4flagsin5yrs
Premiership Player
- Apr 4, 2018
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Thank you.
Our development of Dow (and others) could not be any worse if we tried. Particularly under Teague and Bolton imo.
You will have to go back to the Bolton days probably.
Unfortunately the traits that stop him from being an AFL mid are still present at VFL level, even when he has bossed the midfield in recent weeks - he is purely an inside mid, exposed on turnover and kicking is inconsistent.
I'd love him to make it as his inside game is high level, but he's still behind Cripps, Cerra, Hewett, Walsh, Kennedy and maybe even Setterfield. It might seem unfair that he hasn't had a go, but there's only so many mids you can have in one team and Dow doesn't have a second position.
Re the bolded - Exactly.
Again, how could you possibly know his inside game is better or worse? He’s had one game in the role, in a game we didn’t play particularly well in as a whole.
And if we’re going to base it off one game, purely as an inside mid, how can you categorically say he’s better than that group (setterfield and Kennedy didn’t play)?
Had more centre clearances than Walsh and hewett; more clearances than Walsh, Cripps, hewett; more tackles than cerra, Cripps, Walsh. All from 65% game time.
And no, I’m not saying that he’s better than any of them. I’m simply question the logic, that’s all.
I've seen plenty over his AFL and VFL career to say he's still missing some very key ingredients. It's not about better or worse, it's about capabilities. And I'm not basing my opinion off one game as you seem to suggest - you are right that the game he played this year is not really relevant to the bigger picture.
You also seem to be trying to say he's untested or untried and therefore everyone should back him in. But he's played more than 60 AFL games and his VFL form is there for everyone to see. Getting it 35 times in the VFL is no guarantee for AFL success if your skills and defensive pressure are not up to scratch. Just ask Nick Graham.
You could look at it another way. The coaches don't think he's ahead of the other mids ... he couldn't even get a game when half our mids were injured. Maybe they are seeing the same things I see.
Half his Afl games were gifted to him at the start of his career when he had defensive deficiencies to work on. And the other half were him being shoehorned into a position He simply wasn’t any good at.
His career trajectory has shared a few similarities with setterfield. Talented junior, showed a bit early, shifted to a position he wasn’t suited to, confidence depleted, made to work his way back through a lengthy block of vfl football.
Setterfield was given an opportunity in the right position late in the season and unsurprisingly, looked much better. Dow just needs to be given that same opportunity, over a block of games. Simple as that.
Kennedy is another that’s followed a similar path albeit a year earlier.
I’m not saying he should, or shouldn’t have been given more senior games this year. This is the sort of development he should have gotten in years 1/2 (although I didn’t agree with dropping him after the pies game, or bringing him in against the lions only to play him forward).
He’s shown huge improvement in the twos, been our best player by a mile. Blind Freddy can see that.
Jimmae
Brownlow Medallist
Can you nominate a clear set of regular examples where Kennedy and Cripps are defensively better?
Definitely not in open play, maybe a smidge inside the contest, but some of that comes from understanding the system.
Dow isn't going to get a go in the right spot, we might play him in the middle but is he going to be one of our go to mids? He's a ball hunter, see ball get ball player and he's pretty good at it. He needs to be that player because he hasn't got the smarts and quick reaction time to tag and win a lot of ball or receive off team mates regularly. You have Carroll who is coming on as a contested ball winner but is naturally good at playing around his team mates and Setterfield, Ed Curnow and Hewett who can win the footy tagging. On the flip side you have Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy and Walsh as your go to attacking mids. It's just a really really hard team to crack and I can't see Dow getting a go. In another team who needs that mid he could be pretty handy. He is not a bad player, he is just limited to his role.
Cripps and Kennedy rate 1 and 4 on our list for tackles per game in 2022 … is that clear enough?
I agree with all of that. Just not sure it’s going to happen for him at Carlton.
I wouldn’t normally quote something a few days old on the vfl thread but did you check the stats at all? Dow attended 9 center bounces and had 3 center clearances. The team only had 9 center clearances for the whole game.
Cripps attended 29 and had 0.
Dows issue is he plays the extractor role, but we have cripps for that
For all the “defensive liability” Dow is supposed to be- name one player in our side u can remember winning a free kick from tackling someone to the ground from a fend off!
Exactly like Dow did when we need it, it was awesome
How about having the mental strength to go back and kick a clutch goal - he missed that we were toast & everyone knew it- stepped up when it counted.
Exactly like Dow did when we need it, it was awesome
How about having the mental strength to go back and kick a clutch goal - he missed that we were toast & everyone knew it- stepped up when it counted.
Jimmae
Brownlow Medallist
Most tackles happen around stoppages, and most of those tend to be due to getting to the ball second. That was kind of my point.
And unfortunately, that is a flaw with a lot of coaches. They are stubborn in their views and lack creativity. Unsurprising, considering where coaches come from.
How many coaches coaches have fallen on their sword, unable to delegate tasks to assistants, trying to take on everything themselves? How many players get moved on, only to find themselves well entrenched in a 22 elsewhere, even when that player fills a need at the original club.
Every club is dealt a hand, and it’s up to the coaches to manipulate that hand to its full potential. Good clubs and good coaches find a way. Look at how Melbourne shuffled deck chairs to use brayshaw, or Sydney with Blakey. Freo we’re developing Cerra as a wing/outside mid because they had Mundy, fyfe, brayshaw, serong who are all better inside, whilst cerra is equally capable at both, and their wings weren’t particularly strong.
We could do something similar with Walsh or Cerra, especially because Walsh isn’t particularly good at a centre stoppage.
We recruited Zac Williams on a promise to give him midfield time even though he was never fit enough to fulfil the role. Rather than dealing with the issues, we just pushed him back to hbf.
We recruited Jack Martin with a view that he could be the mid/forward X factor that sets the good from the great teams in the modern era. Problem is we’ve never played him in the midfield or pushed him to improve fitness.
So I agree. When I suggest I don’t think it’s going to work for Dow at Carlton, history suggests we’ve really struggled with player development - not just for draftees but experienced players also.
Some signs of change this year but probably too late for some.
