2nd Test; Australia v Pakistan @ Adelaide Over (D/N) November 29-December 3

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RookiePick

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I reckon he's got a bit of a thankless job. Most of the time he's just there to bowl a heap of overs which pushes your average and strike out and then people ride him if he doesn't take wickets on the 4th/5th days. Most spinners can't tie down an end and average strike bowler numbers. That Warne could and did it as a leggie is why Warne is in all time XIs.

Lyon sits on 3.9 wickets per test level with Hazlewood, Starc is on 4.2 and Cummins 4.9 who all have better career figures.

Lyon's contemporaries are really Murali, Harbhajan Singh and Ravi Ashwin. Murali is in a league of his own, Turbanator has a comparable record to Lyon and played most of his tests in the subcontinent and Ashwin has a better record but is the David Warner of spin bowling.

The reality is he will never be in any GOAT XI because Australia picks 3 quicks and Shane Warne every time. But he's been pretty handy.
Ravi Jadega has the lowest career average for an Indian offie. Once you let that sink in you realise that once you get past the Murali and Warne's of the world you have to look at a whole bunch of stats and do some analysis to assess a bowlers worth and put them in context.

Lyon stacks up pretty comfortably as one of our best ever slow bowlers and he has serviceable to excellent results all over the world on varying surfaces. That he isn't Warne seems to be crime enough in the eyes of many.
 

Jimthegreat

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Lyon has a test bowling average of around 32 which wouldn't even be close to being ranked in the top 20 test bowling averages of all time.
As an Australian it is good going. Australia an absolute graveyard for off-spinners. Even Murali only averaged 75 here. The important stat is the 368 wickets he has from his 92nd Test. That is 4 per Test. Nothing wrong with that, especially playing most of his Tests in Australia.

EDIT: Make that 369 wickets!
 

PhatBoy

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Other than a freak like Muralitharan what offspinner would? Even a legend like Lance Gibbs averaged 29.
I think something that probably hurts him a bit is that his record - I think - has either stagnated or possibly even regressed since Australia developed a world class three man pace attack
 

Scotland

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Ravi Jadega has the lowest career average for an Indian offie. Once you let that sink in you realise that once you get past the Murali and Warne's of the world you have to look at a whole bunch of stats and do some analysis to assess a bowlers worth and put them in context.

Lyon stacks up pretty comfortably as one of our best ever slow bowlers and he has serviceable to excellent results all over the world on varying surfaces. That he isn't Warne seems to be crime enough in the eyes of many.
Jadeja is a good bowler but his record away from spin friendly conditions is ordinary. Warner has nearly 7,000 runs @ 48, but I'm not trading him for Gilchrist who scored 5500 @ 47.

I think Lyon has been pretty good over a long period.
 

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PhatBoy

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As an Australian it is good going. Australia an absolute graveyard for off-spinners. Even Murali only averaged 75 here. The important stat is the 368 wickets he has from his 92nd Test. That is 4 per Test. Nothing wrong with that, especially playing most of his Tests in Australia.

EDIT: Make that 369 wickets!
it is and you can’t fault his work here. One thing I would say is that the bounce over here helps him - players from everywhere bar SA come here and obviously take some time to adjust to the bounce the pacemen get but don’t underestimate the difference in playing Lyon here as well.

and that’s backed up by the fact that he’s averaged 40 and 58 in his two series here against SA, and 40 and 49 in 2 of his 3 series in SA (he took 4 wickets at 30 in the other).
 

corbies

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One thing that has to be remembered with spin bowlers averages is they aren't picked to have a better average than a pace bowler over the course of an innings but rather to have a better average than a pace bowler through overs 25-80. The new ball is essentially why almost all pace bowlers have better averages than spin bowlers but the two roles aren't really comparable.
 

Scotland

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One thing that has to be remembered with spin bowlers averages is they aren't picked to have a better average than a pace bowler over the course of an innings but rather to have a better average than a pace bowler through overs 25-80. The new ball is essentially why almost all pace bowlers have better averages than spin bowlers but the two roles aren't really comparable.
It's also not really feasible to expect someone like Cummins or Starc to bowl 52 overs in the first innings then come out and bowl another 25 or more in the second.
 

wolmeister

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I think something that probably hurts him a bit is that his record - I think - has either stagnated or possibly even regressed since Australia developed a world class three man pace attack
That's because he often plays a holding role while the quicks rotate at the other end. Hi record is still very good and his strike rate of 64.6 is right up there when it comes to off spinners.
 

PhatBoy

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Geez - Pakistan so unlucky they are going to have to bat this last session now against a new ball under lights

#sobwave
#whatmighthavebeen
#moralwinners
Mate when you take the piss out of something, you generally try and take it out of something that exists, or has been said.

no one said they’ve been brave. With the ball particularly they have been the opposite of it.

No one said ‘something different might have happened.’ I have literally stated 4 times now that nothing would have changed if the circumstances were different.

no one has said that they are moral winners. They’ve been smashed.
So what exactly your point is, I haven’t a clue.

the following are facts:

their bowlers didn’t get a new ball under lights. The only way you could blame them for that is if they control the weather. They do not.

their top order had to face a new ball under lights. The only way you could blame them for that, is if the top order is also their bowling attack that took 5 sessions to take 3 wickets. They are not the bowling attack.

The top order then batted a second time - under lights against a new ball. Again, not their ‘fault’ - just circumstances. Yes you can argue that if they batted better on night 2 it mightn’t have happened that way. But still, it made for 3 straight days where conditions combined to make things tough for them.

had they survived long enough to go to the last session tonight, again they would have come up against a new ball under lights.

no one is taking anything away from your precious victory parade, no one is taking credit away from how well Starc, Lyon, Warner and Labuschagne have played, no one is arguing that Pakistan have been somehow unlucky not to win, it is simply being stated that 4 nights on a row of being on the bad side of the known pink-ball-under-lights oddities is an unlikely run.

now that I’ve patted your team on the bum and given them the validation you so desperately think they crave, is there any chance you can argue points that actually HAVE been made rather than ones that haven’t?
 

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