Certified Legendary Thread 34 Essendon* Players suspended for doping violations - No opposition fans. Check OP for thread rules

If Essendon* gets slapped on the wrist with a wet lettuce leaf, I will .......


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The problem that the players and Essendon* will have with their federal court challenge is that they are attacking the process behind the joint AFL/ASADA investigation... which was for the governance issue that they got nailed for last year.
Seperate things mate.

The players will argue in Court that they have been denied procedural fairness and natural justice by ASADA in the way its conducted its investigation.

Got nothing to do with AFL or the 'governance' thing. That was an internal (within the AFL only) penalty handed down by the AFL commission against one if its member clubs for failing to adhere to professional standards (and an excuse to turf them out of the finals).

If they were going to attack the process, they should have acted immediately last year.
It wouldnt have been succesful as no Show Causes had been issued, and thus no adverse decision had been made. No Judge is going to deny the Crown the ability to investigate. They may stop the Crown from depriving someone of their liberty as the result of a critically flawed process, or the denial of natural justuce.

Also, an early move to the courts could have resulted in ASADA starting afresh, and would have deprived the EFC of one of their better stalling tactics should (when) SC's get issued. Also, as the investigation wasnt yet complete, EFC wouldnt have had the chance to review the entire investigation (just one critical **** up and the whole thing could fall down). The best tactic for the EFC was to wait, plan and continue to sell hope to supporters (kool aid) in the meantime.

They didnt contest it then and therefore, jurisprudence says that they accepted the findings of the joint investigations then and therefore cant contest it now in a completely separate matter.
The AFL commissions findings arent binding Res Judicata. You couldnt argue before a Federal Court Judge that the AFL commission binds the Commonwealth (As much as Vlad - and now Brother of Rompingwins - would love it to be so).

As it stands, they are going to try and attack the ASADA investigation by trying to link it into the joint investigation last year. Yes, there was a partial connection last year for the initial part of the investigation and up until the point where ASADA handed over their initial interim findings into the doping regime.

From the day that the AFL charged Hird, Corcoren et al, ASADA has been investigating other avenues and have been consolidating their cases against the individual players and against the staff involved in the establishment of a system doping regime.
Yep. For 16 months now, lawyers on both sides have been planning legal strategies and gearing up for war.

The thing that persuades me that ASADA have the players by the balls, is the review by retired Federal Court Judge Downes.

They would have asked him two things:

1) Is there enough evidence to substantiate a charge against the player? and

2) Have we complied with the ASADA Act, Administrative law principles, natural justice and procedural fairness in conducting this investigation?

Number 1) is an answer they could have gotten from 'in house' legal on review of the evidence. They ONLY would have called in a Federal Court Judge to look at the specific legal issues around number 2.

In other words, ASADA knew what EFC were going to do, planned for it accordingly and confirmed that their investigation was not legally flawed and would stand up to any legal challenges in the Federal Court (where this matter is headed).

My best legal guess is that the players and the club are utterly ******.
 

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And now the race begins.

Stewart Crameri (Western Bulldogs)
Scott Gumbleton (Fremantle)
Angus Monfries (Port Adelaide)

The 1st to a) Admit Guilt, b) Fully cooperate and put all the others in, c) begin a voluntary suspension.

Receives 6 months and gets to play next year.
 
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Denied natural justice...
I hate that terminology. Isn't natural justice when I kill and eat something because I am hungry and it's smaller than me?
I think that ones called the 'law of the jungle'. :D

We gotta keep the Government honest. If that meant (ultimately) that the players and the EFC get off, then so be it. Lesser of two evils.

They wont get off though.

As we speak, Little is on the phone to Gill nutting out the precise terms of the life support system the Dons will be hooked up to over the next 5 years. Practically speaking, its the football clubs best hope.

Right now, barring a miracle in the Federal Court, the AFL are the only thing that are going to keep the EFC alive.
 

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Seperate things mate.
I am pretty certain that the first portion of the ASADA investigation was conducted with the AFL investigators in tow... ie all the initial interviews with the players and staff at Essendon. Which is why I say that the only portion of the ASADA investigation that they can challenge would be the section where the AFL was involved.

At that point, there were too many people involved because of the cross purposes of both investigations. ASADA would have been conducting their investigation with the utmost confidentiality while the AFL guys would have been trampling all over the place in their hobnail boots.

If Essendon* and their claims of deprivation of natural justice are to be believed, they should have instigated court proceedings last year when the AFL handed down their governance findings and suspended/fined Hird, Thompson et al last year. It would have been the perfect time to derail the ASADA investigation and kill it before they could get around to completing their full investigation and presented their findings to retired Federal Court Judge Downes.


My best legal guess is that the players and the club are utterly ******.
If they were smart, they would take the hits and the bans and not fight it. Because if they do fight it, they are done... they might drag it out for a couple of years before its all sorted but at what cost to Essendon* and the AFL.
 

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Wait till you get to privitive clauses and perogative writs. Lots of fun.

I think the players look to have an arguable case. That interim report certainly seems to breach the disclosure rules. If ASADA shared any information with the AFL during the joint investigation (which seems almost inevitable really) then they are also in breach of the nondiscosure in the ASADA act.

Whether this can be said to be a denial of natural justice or procedural fairness to the extent that it voids the whole investigation is a different story.

I think I'll side with the Federal Court judge who reviewed these cases before the SC's were issued and gave each one of them (and the investigation) a big Federal Court tick of approval. Admin law re Crown agencies is his speciality.
Considering that they called in Fed Pol and asked them to investigate whether there were any leaks from ASADA and Fed Pol cleared them of any wrongdoing ... I'd suggest this is an extremely long bow to draw. Add to this the fact that the whole thing has been reviewed and considered by a judge, and he's given the all clear as well, then a procedural anomaly defence is highly unlikely to succeed.
 
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Just so readers can wrap their heads around the enormity of this (and I'm still struggling to do it myself), the loss of 34 players for two years equates to losses (to the EFC alone) of:
  • Approx fifteen million dollars in compensation to suspended players in the likely scenario that the players sue the club for negligence (if the players are not paid during suspension) or probably a roughly equivalent amount to pay an additional 34 players to play for the club for 2 years during suspensions.
  • Add another approx 5 million for loss of endorsements and future revenue for said players.
  • Probably another (conservative) ten million dollars for legal fees, loss of sponsorship and reduced gate revenue for two years.
At a conservative estimate I reckon this will cost them in the realm of thirty odd million dollars by the time its played out.

If I was Little, I'd be seeking some pretty big assurances from the AFL right now.

Even assuming the AFL props them up for the next decade or so, theyre going to be really really shit for a very very long time.

This is unprecedented in the AFL.

James Hird: I'll be in a very good place when this is all over. Damn straight James; youre sitting in Paris in summer enjoying a million dollar holiday. At least you got that bit right.
 
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Considering that they called in Fed Pol and asked them to investigate whether there were any leaks from ASADA and Fed Pol cleared them of any wrongdoing ... I'd suggest this is an extremely long bow to draw. Add to this the fact that the whole thing has been reviewed and considered by a judge, and he's given the all clear as well, then a procedural anomaly defence is highly unlikely to succeed.
My thoughts exactly. There is a reason they went to the AFP and a retired Federal Judge, and thats why. You could also argue that this was a good delaying tactic by the EFC as it delayed the investigation while ASADA dotted its I's and crossed its T's and double checked everything was above board.

Essendon just have to delay this as long as they can. Procedural errors, injunctions, stalling tactics, anything. Their legal fees will mount, but potential damages diminish as players retire.

Im waiting for the penny to drop with the players and they realise that its the club that ****** them over. Then they realise that their only chance is legal action against the club, and not ASADA. What a merry ride that will be.
 

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I think that ones called the 'law of the jungle'. :D

We gotta keep the Government honest. If that meant (ultimately) that the players and the EFC get off, then so be it. Lesser of two evils.

They wont get off though.

As we speak, Little is on the phone to Gill nutting out the precise terms of the life support system the Dons will be hooked up to over the next 5 years. Practically speaking, its the football clubs best hope.

Right now, barring a miracle in the Federal Court, the AFL are the only thing that are going to keep the EFC alive.
That and some very rich supporters who, and lets be honest here, will disappear as soon as the first player is banned. They are not going to want to have their reputations tied in with the train wreck that is approaching them :D
 

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That and some very rich supporters who, and lets be honest here, will disappear as soon as the first player is banned. They are not going to want to have their reputations tied in with the train wreck that is approaching them :D
They seem to have stuck pretty thick so far (weirdly).

Then again, when Elliott screwed us over, we sacked him, barred him from the club, and erased him from a grandstand.

When Hird masterminded something far (far) worse to the EFC they gave him a million dollar one year holdiay to France and guaranteed him a job on return.

Elliotts scheme had us paying a few of our players extra. Hirds scheme was to pump his entire playing list with a swathe of experimental drugs by less than reliable quacks.

Madness.
 

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They seem to have stuck pretty thick so far (weirdly).

Then again, when Elliott screwed us over, we sacked him, barred him from the club, and erased him from a grandstand.

When Hird masterminded something far (far) worse to the EFC they gave him a million dollar one year holdiay to France and guaranteed him a job on return.

Elliotts scheme had us paying a few of our players extra. Hirds scheme was to pump his entire playing list with a swathe of experimental drugs by less than reliable quacks.

Madness.
Thats the entire thing that I dont get with this bunch of idiots...

What would have happened if one of their players had an adverse reaction to one of the "not approved for human use" drugs and dropped dead?

Once the police and coroner's report came in, people would have been screaming for blood... but because there is no short term affects and no one died and because some of the drugs used were supposed to be non-peds... these idiots think that they did nothing wrong.
 

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It was atrocious. Like the bloke had no idea about the process at all.

Must spend all his time on the Essendon board, and not enough time on the HTB board.

Anyways, Essendon are screwed. They'll be lucky to survive this.

That said, you could knock me down with a feather if the AFL arent up to something here. Coincience that Vlad steps down 48 hours before ASADA D-day?

Nah. The AFL clearly know ASADA's timeline. Something is up.
Robbo is Rines
 

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That said, you could knock me down with a feather if the AFL arent up to something here. Coincience that Vlad steps down 48 hours before ASADA D-day?

Nah. The AFL clearly know ASADA's timeline. Something is up.
Forgot to comment on this one I think... Vlad has been looking for an out for months now. And he conveniently picked right before ASADA starts handing out the SC's to do the handover. You are right... the AFL knew something was coming.
 

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On a relative minor note, trading players at years end may be a difficult process for Essendon.

They do have the end of round 1 compo pick, kindly afforded to them by the AFL but everything else will be very limited for them.

Who would even want to go to them?
 

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Let it drag out.... go for it Little... the more it does drag out the more you destroy your club.

Whilst you keep throwing money at the courts tell me what sponsors would want to be associated with the Essendon FC? (Maybe the Age and HeraldSun can become sponsors... mutually beneficial association!)

If the process continues to drag on and on eventually the other 17 clubs will just say enough is enough and the AFL will step in and maybe remove Essendon from playing the game until the matter is resolved.

Keep it dragging on and one of the 34* might just eventually have enough of it lingering over their head and sing like a bird or just admit fault and take a suspension... then the rest will follow suit.

Think of the players and free agents now who'll refuse to join your club whilst this is happening.. with an injury plagued Watson and a weak midfield.. good luck with fixing that up! What about draftees who might now sabotage their interviews with Essendon prior to the draft in hope of not being selected... or draftees who say "I don't want to be part of your club".. would you draft them with the risk they'll walk out in the first opportunity.

Keep it up, you keep fighting the battle and 2013-201? and be the most hated entity in the history of the AFL and Australian sport!

So after 18 months, do you honestly think that ASADA and co would send the show cause notices without knowing they have a winning case! Think of the storm and embarrasment the Government, Police, WADA and ASADA would face if they lost this case after the whole circus! They know they've got Essendon by the balls and think of the wonderful example they can make of Essendon to Australia sports and world-wide sports and all athletes about the risks of drugs and supplemental usage. The eyes of the world are on us here.... they (ASADA WADA) won't lose!

Do the right thing now, take it... earn some respect back for taking it on the chin and rebuild... yes rebuild because it'll be at least a decade till you can recover from this.

But keep fighting that good fight!
 
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