Analysis Cuts to Senior List Sizes

[Baygirl1977]

Afl has just released pay cuts ,


AFL player agents were briefed early on Wednesday afternoon regarding the changes.

Sources with knowledge of negotiations believe this deal is a win for players, who at one stage were facing a 15 to 20 per cent cut in salaries.

As first reported by foxfooty.com.au last Thursday, clubs will only be required to select a minimum of one player in December’s national draft, down from three.

Change in List Size numbers

2020 Total List Sizes: 38-47 | 2021 Total List Sizes: 37-44

2020 Primary List: 38-40 | 2021 Primary List: 36-38

2020 Cat A Rookies: 0-6 | 2021 Cat A Rookies: 0-6

2020 Cat B Rookies: 0-3 | 2021 Cat B Rookies: 0-2

 

[The Nostradamus]

Gold Coast would then have to slash a ton

They’ve got like 50 players on their list atm

 

[briztoon]

The minimum list turnover is three already excluding trades.

I don't see that changing to 2. Third round picks will still hold decent value, especially after several years when the state league comps get better and that mature age pick shows promise.

Round 4 on-wards will look like the Sydney CBD right now....................empty!!

Definitely being discussed by the AFL.

It’s already been flagged by Gil that this year’s draft is likely to see much fewer picks. And Twomey has written about it as well.

 

[briztoon]

Gold Coast would then have to slash a ton

They’ve got like 50 players on their list atm

They will, and it won’t be hard.

 

[briztoon]

Given that every club now has either a reserves or an affiliate team in the 2nd tier competitions then I don’t see why the axed players can’t be shifted to the reserves team and allow clubs to harvest from B team to allow for injury cover.
I’m personally all for list reduction as it would ensure that clubs would go for ready to go players such as marlion Pickett, Tim kelly, Daniel Lloyd, etc. there’s already too many players in the league that are subpar but kept due to “potential”. Let that potential develop in the B league and bring up the blokes that can perform right now.

This might change significantly.

As we’ve seen, Carlton has cut ties with the Northern Blues.

Don’t be surprised if we see something similar to what the NRL teams do with their senior players who don’t get a game in the senior team each week.

 

[eastfreo75]

This might change significantly.

As we’ve seen, Carlton has cut ties with the Northern Blues.

Don’t be surprised if we see something similar to what the NRL teams do with their senior players who don’t get a game in the senior team each week.

I thought the NRL had a seconds competition.

 

[briztoon]

I thought the NRL had a seconds competition.

They have a colts competition. I thought senior players who didn’t get a run in the first team, went back and played in a State league affiliate.

Went and checked google, and it looks like I’m right.

 

[eastfreo75]

They have a colts competition. I thought senior players who didn’t get a run in the first team, went back and played in a State league affiliate.

Went and checked google, and it looks like I’m right.

The WAFL before any alignments had a draft each year for Non- WA drafted players and WA drafted players played for their WAFL club.

It was funny and interesting both Docker and Eagles playing in the same team playing against another team with Eagles and Docker players.

Will be interesting if West Coast keep their seconds team in the WAFL or do they farm the players out to the WAFL clubs or do they go with an alignment.

My gut feeling is that Freo will still farm out the players to Peel. May have less control of Peel which might be a good thing for the Thunder.

 

[coniglio_number1]

The WAFL before any alignments had a draft each year for Non- WA drafted players and WA drafted players played for their WAFL club.

It was funny and interesting both Docker and Eagles playing in the same team playing against another team with Eagles and Docker players.

Will be interesting if West Coast keep their seconds team in the WAFL or do they farm the players out to the WAFL clubs or do they go with an alignment.

My gut feeling is that Freo will still farm out the players to Peel. May have less control of Peel which might be a good thing for the Thunder.

West coast should still be able to afford their reserves team. Same with their women’s team.

very handy position to be in given the current environment. Did any west coast staff get laid off permanently?

 

[briztoon]

West coast should still be able to afford their reserves team. Same with their women’s team.

very handy position to be in given the current environment. Did any west coast staff get laid off permanently?

As far as I’m aware, clubs have only stood down staff, not laid any off permanently.

Not saying that won’t happen in the future though.


There’s been some speculation the AFL night create a national reserves competition. Though to me, that will add an extra cost to the league.

Clubs having affiliate teams in state leagues seems more economical. This occurs in the NRL, where some clubs do fund their own reserves team, while others farm there players to a single or multiple affiliate teams.

 

[eastfreo75]

West coast should still be able to afford their reserves team. Same with their women’s team.

very handy position to be in given the current environment. Did any west coast staff get laid off permanently?

West Coast can afford it for sure.

The soft cap of $6.7m is pretty tight.

If the club is willing to pay the luxury tax and sees a cost benefit, then why not.

If you have 22 plus 1 emergency, you are left with 12 players to form a seconds team.

If you get any injuries, it could be just 5 players.

 

[kreglze]

Gold Coast would then have to slash a ton

They’ve got like 50 players on their list atm

I reckon I could slash 20 quite easily.

(If I don't have to worry about current contracts)

 

[TheLastCall]

I think if list reductions are on the agenda than you should have the ability to pickup players to replace injured players during the year. Free agents, who were not picked previously.
There must be rules on when they can pick them up, like 5 players on long term injury list, ect.
I’d also say any player picked up in the last 6 round must go to the draft next year. I could see teams abusing pickup rule at the end of the season.

Also increase the draft age to 19.

 

[eastfreo75]

I think if list reductions are on the agenda than you should have the ability to pickup players to replace injured players during the year. Free agents, who were not picked previously.
There must be rules on when they can pick them up, like 5 players on long term injury list, ect.
I’d also say any player picked up in the last 6 round must go to the draft next year. I could see teams abusing pickup rule at the end of the season.

Also increase the draft age to 19.

Got feeling that players must be drafted first.

Once delisted they can go anywhere and any time.

 

[Obeanie1]

When you draft a player you commit to a 2 year contract.

Let’s use West Coast as an example because you know them well and they are in flag contention.

Nick Nat is coming back from a knee injury. The Eagles like to play 2 rucks as a structure.

Now do you go with 2 or 3 other rucks on your list. Or do wait for an injury and get a ruck in the mid season draft.

Either way, you don’t draft a ruck in the main draft. You need depth cover for injuries.

Key backs you have McGovern,Barass, Schofield and Brander who play on a wing. Williams as a developing tall.

Now do you draft another key ball who could 3-5 years to develop or do you get a Delisted free agent as depth cover.

Say Willie Rioli is still suspended in 2021. Say the Eagles keep him on 35 list. Then you have 34 players to pick from.

Do the Eagles still want to draft a kid as a late third pick? or Do they get in a delist free agent?

Venables is out with concussion. If he is still out and you keep him on the list. That reduces the Eagles having an extra spot for a development player.

Let’s look at the great mature Picks from West Coast in recent times.

Liam Ryan had big questions over his fitness and professionalism. He did a great preseason with Subi. He would have been picked at the mid season draft.

Rioli was too fat and did a great season and lost a massive amount of weight. Again, you have gone mid season draft.

Kelly professionalism wasn’t up to standard. He did a great preseason and his numbers went through the roof.

Clubs can use the mid season draft and their risk is only 6 months on players who have a body of work.

Why would you go a late third pick on a 18 kid and be committed for 2 years years.

You are presuming a list turnover of 3 max. Which is ....well presuming! As soon as a club turns over 4 players half of the above doesnt apply.

Currently the rules require three main list spots get turned over through the draft.

End of the day a list reduction to 35ish means clubs simply dont perservere for another year on fringe players including older players playing on for 'one last season'.

I can see a LTI provision remaning and an inactive player provision. Player welfare shouldnt be totally eroded in doing thia.

 

[eastfreo75]

You are presuming a list turnover of 3 max. Which is ....well presuming! As soon as a club turns over 4 players half of the above doesnt apply.

Currently the rules require three main list spots get turned over through the draft.

End of the day a list reduction to 35ish means clubs simply dont perservere for another year on fringe players including older players playing on for 'one last season'.

I can see a LTI provision remaning and an inactive player provision. Player welfare shouldnt be totally eroded in doing thia.

You make greats points.

Fringe players will go a year earlier.

I am presuming but let’s face it knows about the future.

I can see a list 35 but 2 placed a LTI list and replacements from delist free agents.

 

[TommyD13]

Would be happy to see maybe a 32 man senior list.
Have an inactive list of players who once placed on it or ineligible for the rest of the season.
Have a continuous rolling supplementary period to replace any players on the inactive list.
Thus could sustain 10 short-medium term injuries at a time.
In circumstances when required, a club can gain AFL permission to sign a player to a 5 day contract (Wednesday-Sunday) if they have too many injuries.
These players must be included in match day squad (back to 25)
Take the opportunity to up the draft age to 19. (No draft in 2020)
Changed to minimum 2 draft selections per club.
To make it work clubs must honor any contracted players in 2021 and beyond up to 32.
Remaining spots can be selected from any player who has previously registered for the draft, or is un-contracted on any AFL list (including their own of course).
Keep the season at 17 rounds per season.
Reduced squad size also means more likelihood of a Tasmania team not reducing the talent pool.
Means we could expand the season to 18, maybe 19 if we add a 20th team
Could keep quarters reduced to maybe 18 minutes? (Quarter length and less matches helps manage injuries with reduced lists)
Thoughts?

 

[TheLastCall]

Would be happy to see maybe a 32 man senior list.
Have an inactive list of players who once placed on it or ineligible for the rest of the season.
Have a continuous rolling supplementary period to replace any players on the inactive list.
Thus could sustain 10 short-medium term injuries at a time.
In circumstances when required, a club can gain AFL permission to sign a player to a 5 day contract (Wednesday-Sunday) if they have too many injuries.
These players must be included in match day squad (back to 25)
Take the opportunity to up the draft age to 19. (No draft in 2020)
Changed to minimum 2 draft selections per club.
To make it work clubs must honor any contracted players in 2021 and beyond up to 32.
Remaining spots can be selected from any player who has previously registered for the draft, or is un-contracted on any AFL list (including their own of course).
Keep the season at 17 rounds per season.
Reduced squad size also means more likelihood of a Tasmania team not reducing the talent pool.
Means we could expand the season to 18, maybe 19 if we add a 20th team
Could keep quarters reduced to maybe 18 minutes? (Quarter length and less matches helps manage injuries with reduced lists)
Thoughts?

You could have two breaks 1/3 & 2/3 way through the season. Kill the break before the finals.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Cats have a total list of 44.

Already flagged retirement
GARY ABLETT
HARRY TAYLOR

Free to good home:
ZACH GUTHRIE
LACHIE HENDERSON
BEN JARVIS
JACOB KENNERLEY
JAMES PARSONS
SAM SIMPSON
JAKE TARCA

Senior list reduction of 5 required so there's 9 out which makes way for 3 first round draftees and maybe a lifeline to another clubs delisted player. Some clubs will feel a lot more pain than others I guess

 

[briztoon]

Cats have a total list of 44.

Already flagged retirement
GARY ABLETT
HARRY TAYLOR

Free to good home:
ZACH GUTHRIE
LACHIE HENDERSON
BEN JARVIS
JACOB KENNERLEY
JAMES PARSONS
SAM SIMPSON
JAKE TARCA

Senior list reduction of 5 required so there's 9 out which makes way for 3 first round draftees and maybe a lifeline to another clubs delisted player. Some clubs will feel a lot more pain than others I guess

Are they all out of contract?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Are they all out of contract?

Yep, plus another half dozen we'd extend and three rookies ooc. 20 total:

K rock Football - K ROCK 95.5

Broadcasting every Cats game via FM 95.5, FM 88.0 at the MCG, and krockfootball.live GFNL matches can be heard via...

www.krockfootball.com.au

That's why if there's players around dropped by other teams we'd be interested I think. We were always turning the list over a lot this year

Edit:
To add to this for example, the cats ruck department is rather famously lacking. Both Darcy Fort and Rhys Stanley are effectively players that can only ruck. If you have a smaller list can you afford two blokes who can only ruck? Or do you go to one ruck and just cover injuries with a Ratugolea or Jenkins?

If other clubs feel the same pinch, does Brayden Preuss find himself at a loose end? If so would the cats drop both Rhys and Darcy, pick up Preuss, and then pick the 25th best player in the draft when other clubs start passing? Even if you don't pick up another clubs back up ruck it's not a bad idea

 

[briztoon]

Yep, plus another half dozen we'd extend and three rookies ooc. 20 total:

K rock Football - K ROCK 95.5

Broadcasting every Cats game via FM 95.5, FM 88.0 at the MCG, and krockfootball.live GFNL matches can be heard via...

www.krockfootball.com.au

That's why if there's players around dropped by other teams we'd be interested I think. We were always turning the list over a lot this year

Edit:
To add to this for example, the cats ruck department is rather famously lacking. Both Darcy Fort and Rhys Stanley are effectively players that can only ruck. If you have a smaller list can you afford two blokes who can only ruck? Or do you go to one ruck and just cover injuries with a Ratugolea or Jenkins?

If other clubs feel the same pinch, does Brayden Preuss find himself at a loose end? If so would the cats drop both Rhys and Darcy, pick up Preuss, and then pick the 25th best player in the draft when other clubs start passing? Even if you don't pick up another clubs back up ruck it's not a bad idea

Yeah, I made a similar post on the Lions board.

I can see most teams playing a first choice ruck, and a ruck forward, and probably carrying another ruck forward on their list.

Few teams will carry a second genuine ruck.

I do see teams doing what Melbourne have done. If a team has a ruck around 26/27, and they have the chance to draft an elite young ruck like Tim English, Luke Jackson or Riley Thilthorpe, they will.

Both Jackson and Thilthorpe can start their careers playing KPF, before they take over as the number one ruck.

 

[Virgin Dog]

It sounds brutal in theory, but in practice it should be reasonably "easy" for most teams to cut their lists back by ~10 players. It just means a lot of the project players are gone.

For the Dogs:

RETIREMENT
Tory Dickson
Matt Suckling

FIRST ONES OUT THE DOOR
Lin Jong
Brad Lynch
Roarke Smith

TRADE BAIT/FREE TO GOOD HOME
Billy Gowers
Fergus Greene
Ryan Gardner
Cal Porter
Jackson Trengove

That's 10 already. Could also look at guys like Ben Cavarra and Buku Khamis, but I think it's more likely the club gives those two a bit of extra time.

I'd consider the Dogs to have some of the best depth in the competition, and I still find it relatively simple to cut the list back. Any club could do the same if their hand was forced. I'd say the club that would have the toughest time would be West Coast, where they'd end up having to cut decent-ish players like Mark Hutchings

 

[Chaisa]

Swans example would probably look like:

RETIREMENT
Josh P. Kennedy

DELIST
Joel Amartey
Ryan Clarke
Robbie Fox
Michael Knoll
Harry Reynolds
Lewis Melican
Ryley Stoddart
Jackson Thurlow

That's 9, and you'd have to imagine that unless they rapidly improve James Bell, Kaiden Brand, Zac Foot, Matthew Ling, Jack Maibaum, Hayden McLean, Ben Ronke, Brady Rowles and Sam Wicks would all be in danger too. So there's 18 guys from just one club they could easily cut (in practice I'd expect 3-4 of those to stay on)

That's only out of 2020 uncontracted players too.

 

[kreglze]

I just did this on the Suns forum but I did the full cut to 30 there, if I was going to 35 a few get reprieves.

Chris Burgess
Matt Conroy
Jacob Dawson
Corey Ellis
Jy Farrar
Sam Fletcher
Pearce Hanley (Ret)
Jarrod Harbrow (Ret)
Jacob Heron
George Horlin Smith
Jesse Joyce
Jordan Murdoch
Patrick Murtagh
Josh Schoenfeld
Luke Towey
Mitch Riordan

There is my 16 I would cut from the Suns, a few promising/project players in that lot, but ALOT of dead wood as well.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Swans example would probably look like:

RETIREMENT
Josh P. Kennedy

DELIST
Joel Amartey
Ryan Clarke
Robbie Fox
Michael Knoll
Harry Reynolds
Lewis Melican
Ryley Stoddart
Jackson Thurlow

That's 9, and you'd have to imagine that unless they rapidly improve James Bell, Kaiden Brand, Zac Foot, Matthew Ling, Jack Maibaum, Hayden McLean, Ben Ronke, Brady Rowles and Sam Wicks would all be in danger too. So there's 18 guys from just one club they could easily cut (in practice I'd expect 3-4 of those to stay on)

That's only out of 2020 uncontracted players too.

Ronke on notice? I always liked him. Also had my eye on young Ling as a junior, he hasn't developed?