Player Watch #36 Aliir Aliir - contract extended to 2021

RobbieK

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I agree its not good enough. But dropping him from the selected team was way over the top. There are many other ways to enforce discipline. Dropping him penalised the team. And then to keep him out of the team was a travesty. Only one person bears responsibility - Longmire.
I really feel that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to reasons to be pissed off with Longmire when you criticise him for dropping a player that missed the last training session before a game with no excuse beyond sleeping through their alarm. It was totally the appropriate call to make. You do not maintain a professional culture by letting things like that slide without consequence.
 

caesar88

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I think there is some revisionism here.

In 2017 Aliir had injury issues through pre-season that effected him throughout the year. After the initial injury issues across the whole team at the start of the year we ended up settlign on Grundy, Melican and Rampe as our defensive pillars and went on one of the best runs of form the club has ever had. The winning system wasn't messed with. Aliir was supposed to get back in to the team in Rd 7, but he blew it with his missed training session.

His first game this year was pretty rubbish. He managed just the 5 disposals with a disposal efficiency more than 20% off his average in the back end of the season. It was deemed not good enough and he went back to the NEAFL. He was made to earn his way back in to the team, and he did.

I don't think this is the story of inept player selection you are making it out to be.
But this is also revisionist because this board unanimously scratched their heads saying, why the **** is Aliir playing forward? When he inevitably proves our doubts correct, we can't then say wow he was crap. It should never have happened that way in the first place.
 

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caesar88

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As much as I rate Aliir and was glad he made his way back into the team the second half of this year, I don't even think we saw the best of Aliir this year. The way our back-line was bombarded with repeat entries and constantly under pressure meant we didn't get to see any of our defenders at their best this year. The figures released on afl.com prove that Aliir is actually very good one-on-one, but I don't think he needs to be. I know general footy logic tells us that defenders need to be able to defend, and they do, but I don't see Aliir is a defender as much as he is a goal-keeper and a play-maker. He can be so dangerous with the ball, both when it's incoming and when he sends it outgoing, that he's almost wasted being tied down just spoiling or out-muscling an opponent.

I'd rather see him maybe play predominantly loose, not just every now and then linger as the loose. Let him create space so that he can actually play on and run like he likes to do (but didn't do much of this year?). Let him read the play in the air like a non-tubby, ultra-agile Jeremy McGovern. Let him use his skill and ability to work in traffic to maybe set up plays and get us moving up the ground. I know it would be unconventional and a horrifying thought for someone like Horse who loves his old-school defenders (fairly, given how well they've done for us over the years), but it would be playing to Aliir's strengths and really allow him to thrive. He could become the only Swan not-named-Buddy who is a legitimate weapon. Adam Goodes and Buddy aside, how often do we hear opposition teams actually worrying about our players, and not the other way round? It's time WE had a match-winning weapon on our side!
 

connolly

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I really feel that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to reasons to be pissed off with Longmire when you criticise him for dropping a player that missed the last training session before a game with no excuse beyond sleeping through their alarm. It was totally the appropriate call to make. You do not maintain a professional culture by letting things like that slide without consequence.
It would be nice if you at least concede what I wrote. I said it was an excessive penalty and it penalised the team. There are other penalties - monetary, extra training and counselling. The publication of his minor infraction (it wasn't drugs, partying, breaking curfews etc) was humiliating and totally unnecessary. But that's the way Longmire runs the club very much like Pagan. I'll go further this kindergarten in the corner stuff is old fashioned and doesn't work with millennials in my opinion. So the issue is the kind of penalty not whether he should have been disciplined. As I said I cant wait to see the back of Longmire. My opinion.
 

MC Bad Genius

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It would be nice if you at least concede what I wrote. I said it was an excessive penalty and it penalised the team. There are other penalties - monetary, extra training and counselling. The publication of his minor infraction (it wasn't drugs, partying, breaking curfews etc) was humiliating and totally unnecessary. But that's the way Longmire runs the club very much like Pagan. I'll go further this kindergarten in the corner stuff is old fashioned and doesn't work with millennials in my opinion. So the issue is the kind of penalty not whether he should have been disciplined. As I said I cant wait to see the back of Longmire. My opinion.
I was disappointed by him being dropped as well, but I don't agree with it being an excessive punishment. I'd say that if anyone missed a training with no warning or reason they'd be met with a similar punishment (at the Swans and all the other clubs). Yes it punishes the team, but missing a training also disrespects the rest of the team that bothered to turn up, so it cuts both ways. This isn't intended as a defence of some of Horse's coaching deficiencies, but I honestly don't think this is one of them.
 

RobbieK

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It would be nice if you at least concede what I wrote. I said it was an excessive penalty and it penalised the team. There are other penalties - monetary, extra training and counselling. The publication of his minor infraction (it wasn't drugs, partying, breaking curfews etc) was humiliating and totally unnecessary. But that's the way Longmire runs the club very much like Pagan. I'll go further this kindergarten in the corner stuff is old fashioned and doesn't work with millennials in my opinion. So the issue is the kind of penalty not whether he should have been disciplined. As I said I cant wait to see the back of Longmire. My opinion.
Why would I concede that it was excessive when I clearly think it wasn't?

I don't think there is any club in the league that would do differently, no matter who the player was. It is a totally standard and predictable response - miss the last training session before a match for no reason and you are not going to be taking the field.

The club had to explain why he was dropped when expected to play. They told the truth - he had missed a training session. I don't see how this is humiliating. If the club didn't say why he had been dropped the rumour and panic mill would have gone in to overdrive with speculation about the kinds of things you feel are deserving of more serious sanctions.

It is about accountability, consistency and professionalism. You say that it hurts the team not to play him that weekend, but it hurts the club more if there is any sort of tolerance for the infraction, if standards or expectations for player behaviour are dropped or lowered. That kind of thing has an insidious effect on a group. Our club is put on a pedestal for the culture we have. That culture did not develop by accident and nor does it sustain itself by accident. Look at the mess at Gold Coast for what happens when a club doesn't take building and maintaining a professional culture seriously.

You are entitled to your opinion on this, but I think you will struggle to find anyone who would share it. The club's actions were totally reasonable and justified, from the penalty imposed to the communication of that penalty.
 

connolly

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Why would I concede that it was excessive when I clearly think it wasn't?

I don't think there is any club in the league that would do differently, no matter who the player was. It is a totally standard and predictable response - miss the last training session before a match for no reason and you are not going to be taking the field.

The club had to explain why he was dropped when expected to play. They told the truth - he had missed a training session. I don't see how this is humiliating. If the club didn't say why he had been dropped the rumour and panic mill would have gone in to overdrive with speculation about the kinds of things you feel are deserving of more serious sanctions.

It is about accountability, consistency and professionalism. You say that it hurts the team not to play him that weekend, but it hurts the club more if there is any sort of tolerance for the infraction, if standards or expectations for player behaviour are dropped or lowered. That kind of thing has an insidious effect on a group. Our club is put on a pedestal for the culture we have. That culture did not develop by accident and nor does it sustain itself by accident. Look at the mess at Gold Coast for what happens when a club doesn't take building and maintaining a professional culture seriously.

You are entitled to your opinion on this, but I think you will struggle to find anyone who would share it. The club's actions were totally reasonable and justified, from the penalty imposed to the communication of that penalty.
Are you seriously suggesting that it is a common penalty to drop players who miss or are late to training in the AFL? And to publicise it to the world at large? You have to be kidding. This was not a drug offense (GC), drunk at a night club or having a punch up after a game. All of which would warrant dropping. Mate a strong culture is not built on treating men like children. By the way how many players have been dropped for being late to training in the last ten years in the comp much less the Swans? I would suggest one. So if Franklin or Heeney turn up late or miss a training session they will be dropped? Really? And we are supposed to believe that there has been impeccable timekeeping by hundreds of players? We have had players who have been cut some slack and given free passes. And Aliir was kept in the reserves by Longmire because of his style of attacking play according to Longmire's mate. So the kindergarten penalty aggravated what was a dreadful piece of coaching all round.
 

connolly

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Considering the team lost only 3 games out of the remaining 18 games I fail to see how it penalised the team other than rewarded a winning team.
So dropping the most promising defender in the game was not penalising the team? I didn't say it caused a defeat. If you look up the definition it means giving the opposition an advantage and out team a disadvantage. Which it did. He was replaced by Harrison Marsh. If that wasn't a penalty on the team I don't know what would be.
 

connolly

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Why would I concede that it was excessive when I clearly think it wasn't?

..
We have a comprehension problem. I didn't mean that you concede to what i wrote as in agree with me. I meant at least accurately restate what I wrote.
 

connolly

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I was disappointed by him being dropped as well, but I don't agree with it being an excessive punishment. I'd say that if anyone missed a training with no warning or reason they'd be met with a similar punishment (at the Swans and all the other clubs). Yes it punishes the team, but missing a training also disrespects the rest of the team that bothered to turn up, so it cuts both ways. This isn't intended as a defence of some of Horse's coaching deficiencies, but I honestly don't think this is one of them.
Well I sincerely hope Buddy or Heeney don't get caught in traffic or have an afternoon nap and get dropped, There would be an uproar. You are seriously suggesting they would be dropped?
 

Kummerspeck

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Are you seriously suggesting that it is a common penalty to drop players who miss or are late to training in the AFL? And to publicise it to the world at large? You have to be kidding.
Players miss games over training issues. Darcy Byrne-Jones from Port and Max Gawn are both two examples I can think of who were dropped for being late or not turning up to training.
 

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robbieando

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Are you seriously suggesting that it is a common penalty to drop players who miss or are late to training in the AFL? And to publicise it to the world at large? You have to be kidding.
You're kidding yourself that Allir was hard done by. If that's the case sack Clarkson and Lyon then for doing likewise and publicising it to boot

Luke Hodge dropped for missing training and not telling the club why (drinking session with family)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-10/luke-hodge-to-miss-hawthorn-hawks-afl-opener-due-to-breach/8343586

Connor Blakely dropped for missing training to go surfing instead

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/19771619/docker-connor-blakely-dropped-sneaky-surf
 

robbieando

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So dropping the most promising defender in the game was not penalising the team?
Penalised the person who made the mistake and that person is responsible for his actions and no one else. Maybe look there for your target of anger.

I didn't say it caused a defeat. If you look up the definition it means giving the opposition an advantage and out team a disadvantage. Which it did.
You can't suggest that for a second. No team other than Hawthorn took advantage of this so-called disadvantage you suggest we had, nor do stats suggest our defence was struggling without Allir in the side. As a bonus we got to see development and growth from Melican which we might not have seen had Allir played. So that is a benefit to out-weigh a so-called disadvantage.

In anycase he has established himself in the senior side and is signed up for the next 3 seasons so I don't see what the fuss is about.
 

RobbieK

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Well I sincerely hope Buddy or Heeney don't get caught in traffic or have an afternoon nap and get dropped, There would be an uproar. You are seriously suggesting they would be dropped?
If there was extenuating circumstances, say an accident closed roads and the player was stuck in traffic unable to move and they called the club to explain why they were running late, then they probably wouldn't get dropped. Likewise if there was a family emergency and they rushed a child or partner to hospital, I'm sure the club would expect the players to make the decision to attend to that (but would also expect them to contact the club to let them know what is happening).

However, if a player just didn't show up, didn't have a reason beyond they slept in, didn't call to let the club know what was happening and just missed the session or turned up halfway, then I don't care if you are getting paid $1 million a season or $100k a season, you aren't playing that weekend. You can't have one rule for some and another rule for others.

It would be the same across the league. The reason you don't hear about it happening beyond the 4 or 5 examples from the last few posts will be because it doesn't happen very often because the players know that it is a big deal if they just go AWOL.
 

connolly

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Penalised the person who made the mistake and that person is responsible for his actions and no one else. Maybe look there for your target of anger.



You can't suggest that for a second. No team other than Hawthorn took advantage of this so-called disadvantage you suggest we had, nor do stats suggest our defence was struggling without Allir in the side. As a bonus we got to see development and growth from Melican which we might not have seen had Allir played. So that is a benefit to out-weigh a so-called disadvantage.

In anycase he has established himself in the senior side and is signed up for the next 3 seasons so I don't see what the fuss is about.
The fuss is about the story the Longmire dropped him to the reserves and then kept him in the reserves effectively for a season.. The fuss is about the fact that an ultra defensive coach kept a player of outstanding potential in the reserves because the young player didn't fit in with the ultra defensive game plan. I refer you to the David King article which with all the arrogance and incompetence of a David King article supported Longmire in that decision. And then our intelligence is insulted with stories of sleeping in or he wasn't in form or that Melican was a better player. You like stats - then compare Aliir's and Melican's stats to put that one to bed and sleep in on it.
 

connolly

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If there was extenuating circumstances, say an accident closed roads and the player was stuck in traffic unable to move and they called the club to explain why they were running late, then they probably wouldn't get dropped. Likewise if there was a family emergency and they rushed a child or partner to hospital, I'm sure the club would expect the players to make the decision to attend to that (but would also expect them to contact the club to let them know what is happening).

However, if a player just didn't show up, didn't have a reason beyond they slept in, didn't call to let the club know what was happening and just missed the session or turned up halfway, then I don't care if you are getting paid $1 million a season or $100k a season, you aren't playing that weekend. You can't have one rule for some and another rule for others.

It would be the same across the league. The reason you don't hear about it happening beyond the 4 or 5 examples from the last few posts will be because it doesn't happen very often because the players know that it is a big deal if they just go AWOL.
OK so now we have a veritable maze of provisos and conditions. Hodge was dropped for a game by the garden gnome because he deliberately opted not to go to training but his brother's wedding!!! Another control freak.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/luke-hodge-to-miss-round-1-due-to-clubimposed-suspension/news-story/fa6e50879d3544eb730376a9a4d3881c

By the way none of us really know of any extenuating circumstances with Aliir. The fact is Longmire treated him like a child, publicly humiliated him and kept him in the reserves effectively for a season. I wait with nervous bated breath that Buddy has his alarm clock primed and never misses a training session because he will be dropped. . Its a different era but Plugger Lockett and Spud Frawley (who was captain of St Kilda) who both lived at Ballarat and drove to training together decided to go to Luna Park instead of training. So the captain rang the coach Daryl Baldock (another champion) and said the car had broken down and they couldn't make it. The coach said ok. The only problem was that a photo appeared in the HS the next day with Plugger and Spud enjoying one of the rides at Luna Park. Were they dropped for the next match? Three champions and men sorted it out.
 

connolly

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You're kidding yourself that Allir was hard done by. If that's the case sack Clarkson and Lyon then for doing likewise and publicising it to boot

Luke Hodge dropped for missing training and not telling the club why (drinking session with family)

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-10/luke-hodge-to-miss-hawthorn-hawks-afl-opener-due-to-breach/8343586

Connor Blakely dropped for missing training to go surfing instead

http://www.espn.com.au/afl/story/_/id/19771619/docker-connor-blakely-dropped-sneaky-surf
Yes well you quoted the two other control freak coaches actions. Aliir didn't deliberately miss a training session to go drinking or surfing. The circumstances are important here. So hardly relevant. By the way I do think Lyon should be sacked at Freo. He is a hypocrite of monumental proportions. He has no credibility when it comes to discipline. Not the tread to discuss that here. But I do take sexual harassment in the workplace seriously. But thats another story.
https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/ross-lyon-sexual-harasment-video-emerges/news-story/b20a038da31ff82ba0c6286b88b7104a

As for Clarkson dropping Hodge for going to his brothers wedding that was absurdly dictatorial. I believe Hodge left the club the next season?
As for an example of a club that intelligently and successfully managed and counselled a young player with disciplinary problems with out the need to drop him from games I give you Dustin Martin and the Richmond Football Club. They seem to have an OK culture. But then again he went on to win a Brownlow something that Longmire seems to have a bit of difficulty cultivating with young players.
 
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RobbieK

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OK so now we have a veritable maze of provisos and conditions. Hodge was dropped for a game by the garden gnome because he deliberately opted not to go to training but his brother's wedding!!! Another control freak.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/luke-hodge-to-miss-round-1-due-to-clubimposed-suspension/news-story/fa6e50879d3544eb730376a9a4d3881c

By the way none of us really know of any extenuating circumstances with Aliir. The fact is Longmire treated him like a child, publicly humiliated him and kept him in the reserves effectively for a season. I wait with nervous bated breath that Buddy has his alarm clock primed and never misses a training session because he will be dropped. . Its a different era but Plugger Lockett and Spud Frawley (who was captain of St Kilda) who both lived at Ballarat and drove to training together decided to go to Luna Park instead of training. So the captain rang the coach Daryl Baldock (another champion) and said the car had broken down and they couldn't make it. The coach said ok. The only problem was that a photo appeared in the HS the next day with Plugger and Spud enjoying one of the rides at Luna Park. Were they dropped for the next match? Three champions and men sorted it out.
The game is much more professional now than then. What you could get away with in the 80s or even 90s won't fly now.

Hodge's suspension was totally justified.

Did you actually read the article you just posted? For starters, he didn't go to his brother's wedding, he went to his 21st birthday. He partied over the weekend and didn't show up when he was expected to back at training with no explanation. More tellingly, the decision to suspend him wasn't made by Clarkson, it was made by the leadership group, his fellow players.

And you do realise the article you just linked to quotes one of the character's from your other story, yeah? What did Frawley have to say about Hodge?

“With the new leadership group, they’ve got to set the standards high. There’s no higher standard than to drop one of the greatest players to ever play for the Hawthorn Football Club. Everyone knows where the line in the sand is now.”

So even good old Spud doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

What about Hodge himself?

“I have prided myself on holding the playing group to very high standards and I am disappointed that I let them slip on this occasion. Our club has established incredibly strong values and I fully support Rough and the leadership group in their decision and ensuring these values are upheld.” https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/hawthorn-leadership-group-suspends-luke-hodge-for-round-1-after-failing-to-inform-club-of-training-absence/news-story/52958fa2ee2e8f4bdb5b19179467bbe1

It kind of looks like the only person that think there is anything inappropriate about the response is you. It is hard not to conclude that your intense dislike for Longmire is clouding your judgment.
 

connolly

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The game is much more professional now than then. What you could get away with in the 80s or even 90s won't fly now.

Hodge's suspension was totally justified.

Did you actually read the article you just posted? For starters, he didn't go to his brother's wedding, he went to his 21st birthday. He partied over the weekend and didn't show up when he was expected to back at training with no explanation. More tellingly, the decision to suspend him wasn't made by Clarkson, it was made by the leadership group, his fellow players.

And you do realise the article you just linked to quotes one of the character's from your other story, yeah? What did Frawley have to say about Hodge?

“With the new leadership group, they’ve got to set the standards high. There’s no higher standard than to drop one of the greatest players to ever play for the Hawthorn Football Club. Everyone knows where the line in the sand is now.”

So even good old Spud doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

What about Hodge himself?

“I have prided myself on holding the playing group to very high standards and I am disappointed that I let them slip on this occasion. Our club has established incredibly strong values and I fully support Rough and the leadership group in their decision and ensuring these values are upheld.” https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/hawthorn-leadership-group-suspends-luke-hodge-for-round-1-after-failing-to-inform-club-of-training-absence/news-story/52958fa2ee2e8f4bdb5b19179467bbe1

It kind of looks like the only person that think there is anything inappropriate about the response is you. It is hard not to conclude that your in thetense dislike for Longmire is clouding your judgment.
Apologies for the misquote. No I didn't read it when I posted it. I had read it previously. Its pension day today and I really don't have the time in the broad majestic sweep of life's grand tapestry to pay attention to the needlework of life's small threads and details.
I don't dislike Longmire. I really dislike his style of coaching and his mismanagement of young players. I wont even go into the Mitchell fiasco here. I hold no credence to club PR which I believe the Hodge statement was. As for Frawley with due respect he is an entertainer, couldn't coach and was a great player. And also a hypocrite. Hodge was on the way out at Hawthorn at the time and Clarkson who is a complete grub treated him just as a grub would. And don't even start me on their President. I don't hold Hawthorn as a football club as an example of good player management or decent treatment of players. Spare me their premiership record. They got lucky with three champions Buddy Hodge and Roughie. Only one left now. .They are trying to get lucky with a couple more. Clarkson's "genius" is one of the greatest PR self promotion exercises of all time. Been around a long time, heard it all and don't fall for footy club BS.
 
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The King!

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Apologies for the misquote. No I didn't read it when I posted it. I had read it previously. Its pension day today and I really don't have the time in the broad majestic sweep of life's grand tapestry to pay attention to the needlework of life's small threads and details.
I don't dislike Longmire. I really dislike his style of coaching and his mismanagement of young players. I wont even go into the Mitchell fiasco here. I hold no credence to club PR which I believe the Hodge statement was. As for Frawley with due respect he is an entertainer, couldn't coach and was a great player. And also a hypocrite. Hodge was on the way out at Hawthorn at the time and Clarkson who is a complete grub treated him just as a grub would. And don't even start me on their President. I don't hold Hawthorn as a football club as an example of good player management or decent treatment of players. Spare me their premiership record. They got lucky with three champions Buddy Hodge and Roughie. Only one left now. .They are trying to get lucky with a couple more. Clarkson's "genius" is one of the greatest PR self promotion exercises of all time. Been around a long time, heard it all and don't fall for footy club BS.

Clubs are pretty selective with who gets punished and who gets what punishment

Hannebery can get away with more than Aliir for instance

Horse and the club play favourites, but every club does

the better the player the more leway they get
 

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