Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

telsor

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The 1987 Rights

The VFL were surprised when Seven offered no increase on the rights for 1987, staying firm on $3.3 million for the 1987 season (Football Limited pg 163) – Ross Oakley says 3.4 million (The Phoenix Rises pg 85). The league did not believe a 13% increase was enough, and the VFL decided to try other stations, but no interest was forthcoming from the Nine or Ten networks. After a couple of weeks, the league went back to Seven only to be told they had taken too long to consider the offer – evidently a two week deadline – and it was now being reduced to $3 million a season. (Football Limited pg 167).

http://www.footyindustry.com/?page_id=4259

Theres more:
n January 28th, 1987, Seven Network (Melbourne) manager Ron Casey offered the VFL $2 million for the 1987 Victorian rights, but later withdrew them, signing instead a deal for $1.4 million, while still broadcasting the preseason competition. (The Phoenix Rises pg 95, Football Limited pg 176). However, Seven was soon sold to Fairfax, and on March 13, the league announced the Seven deal for 1987 had collapsed (The Phoenix Rises pg 96). The league then turned to the ABC which signed on for $1.6 million (Note that Football Limited says it was slightly less than 1.5 million)
Yep, Seven played hard ball, the VFL called their bluff.

Now check out what the next deal was...
 

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basashi

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TV rights gloabally were becoming a much bigger factor, and the lions share was always going to go to the biggest and highest quality league, which was the VFL, by a long way. (VFL was already getting broadcast in WA & SA, while their leagues were barely hear of in the Vic media market).

The idea that people realised more money was coming, and the VFL would be the big player in that is hardly 'revisionism'.
too early
 

Kwality

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I'm sure all the WA fans who are so happy to kill off Vic clubs 'for the good of the game' would gladly accept WCE being closed down and split in two (or three)....It'd be for the good of the game after all.
As would cutting the Tiges IF thats your logic, allocate the membership on surname by alphabet or postcode?

It would address he too many teams in Melbourne issue, reduce supply, increase demand - but would the true footy fans keep going to the footy, even in WA it took the Eagles a decade to truly warm to the national comp.

Maybe throw in the Pies too, postcode might better suit your suggestion (?). Maybe a Saints merger, the Bulldogs both OK then, but what about North aka the Kangaroos.

No thanks, it'd take 10 years to get the crowds back up, maybe more if you look at Souths to Sydney, Lions to Brisbane & would those pesky fans change their alliance as directed?
 

telsor

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As would cutting the Tiges IF thats your logic, allocate the membership on surname by alphabet or postcode?

It would address he too many teams in Melbourne issue, reduce supply, increase demand - but would the true footy fans keep going to the footy, even in WA it took the Eagles a decade to truly warm to the national comp.

Maybe throw in the Pies too, postcode might better suit your suggestion (?). Maybe a Saints merger, the Bulldogs both OK then, but what about North aka the Kangaroos.

No thanks, it'd take 10 years to get the crowds back up, maybe more if you look at Souths to Sydney, Lions to Brisbane & would those pesky fans change their alliance as directed?
But somehow you keep talking as if Vic fans WOULD behave that way when you want to remove them to stop the made up "too many teams in Melbourne issue"...I'd say it was odd how you adopt a completely different stance when it's your team, but that hypocrisy was kinda my point.
 

Kwality

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But somehow you keep talking as if Vic fans WOULD behave that way...Odd how you adopt a completely different stance when it's your team.
Very different markets, one market has a supply problem, the other has a demand problem. One solution does not solve both, even IF you were serious.

For example over recent years the AFL (Victorian branch ?) has moved on the oversupply problem in Melbourne, Geelong to Geelong, North to Hobart & the Doggies to Ballarat, whilst continuing to support the FIFO games in Darwin, Alice Springs & Launceston & Townsville, effectively moved 20+ games out of the oversupplied market that is Melbourne.

So in WA the State Govt has built a new stadium that would welcome a 3rd AFL club, & the Eagles have a waiting list all paying a tidy sum in the hope of getting the opportunity to be offered seated membership. Would 3rd club attract a membership, would it break even, would it be a sea anchor on the WAFC, ie the body responsible for developing Aussie Rules in WA?

Sure WA fans realigned their support with the formation of both the Eagles & Freo, how long would it take to do it again if they were informed (think sleazy GF decision) that the Eagles were to be split up - where would the AFL find the money to replace what the Eagles kick in to the WAFC ? Would the 2 or 3 eagles lite teams be competitive or would the AFL just have a couple more teams languishing out of finals contention with the squads of ALL teams weakened by another influx of 2nd tier footballers (I still follow Subi in the WAFL, very successful at the 2nd tier, its junior development continuing to supply the AFL
draft ). Would the AFL completely ruin the development of WA footy as it has in Tas?

The simple solution is to move more games out of Melbourne & play them in Adelaide & Perth, start with games that dont pull a crowd at the G or has the MCC such control over the AFL that its hands are tied. Why would the AFL allow it to happen?

No more teams please, 18 clubs is too many already.
 

telsor

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Very different markets, one market has a supply problem, the other has a demand problem. One solution does not solve both, even IF you were serious.

For example over recent years the AFL (Victorian branch ?) has moved on the oversupply problem in Melbourne, Geelong to Geelong, North to Hobart & the Doggies to Ballarat, whilst continuing to support the FIFO games in Darwin, Alice Springs & Launceston & Townsville, effectively moved 20+ games out of the oversupplied market that is Melbourne.

So in WA the State Govt has built a new stadium that would welcome a 3rd AFL club, & the Eagles have a waiting list all paying a tidy sum in the hope of getting the opportunity to be offered seated membership. Would 3rd club attract a membership, would it break even, would it be a sea anchor on the WAFC, ie the body responsible for developing Aussie Rules in WA?

Sure WA fans realigned their support with the formation of both the Eagles & Freo, how long would it take to do it again if they were informed (think sleazy GF decision) that the Eagles were to be split up - where would the AFL find the money to replace what the Eagles kick in to the WAFC ? Would the 2 or 3 eagles lite teams be competitive or would the AFL just have a couple more teams languishing out of finals contention with the squads of ALL teams weakened by another influx of 2nd tier footballers (I still follow Subi in the WAFL, very successful at the 2nd tier, its junior development continuing to supply the AFL
draft ). Would the AFL completely ruin the development of WA footy as it has in Tas?

The simple solution is to move more games out of Melbourne & play them in Adelaide & Perth, start with games that dont pull a crowd at the G or has the MCC such control over the AFL that its hands are tied. Why would the AFL allow it to happen?

No more teams please, 18 clubs is too many already.
None of that change how fans of a killed off team would react, so killing off a team with more support than a new team would gain (e.g with Tas) is a negative for the comp, no matter how badly you want to stick it to Victorians.
 

gopies1981

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Perth population ~ 2,100,000 @ +2.5% P.A.

Having three WA teams would result in a population share of 700k per team in 2015 (600k per Vic team).

Doubling up games with Fremantle and West Coast would save one of the existing clubs up to 4 flights to and from eastern states each year.

Looking at demographics the most likely region of Perth to gain a team would be in the Northern suburbs.

It will be interesting to see how successful Perth Stadium turns out to be.

View attachment 241406
Jundaloop Jaguars 🐆
 

The_Wookie

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The simple solution is to move more games out of Melbourne & play them in Adelaide & Perth, start with games that dont pull a crowd at the G or has the MCC such control over the AFL that its hands are tied. Why would the AFL allow it to happen?
The MCC/Vic Gov/AFL contract now requires 43 games per season, down from 45. Throw in the AFLs revenue requirements at Docklands, and the AFLs policy of not allowing teams to move home games to Adelaide and Perth unless exception circumstances require it (such as Metricon/Gabba being unavailable during the Commonwealth Games) and you have no chance of this happening.
 

Kwality

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The MCC/Vic Gov/AFL contract now requires 43 games per season, down from 45. Throw in the AFLs revenue requirements at Docklands, and the AFLs policy of not allowing teams to move home games to Adelaide and Perth unless exception circumstances require it (such as Metricon/Gabba being unavailable during the Commonwealth Games) and you have no chance of this happening.
No chance H&A, the GF deal .... cant fault the consistency !!
 

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Kwality

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None of that change how fans of a killed off team would react, so killing off a team with more support than a new team would gain (e.g with Tas) is a negative for the comp, no matter how badly you want to stick it to Victorians.
Its the national comp, its equity for ALL fans.
Its supply & demand, recognised by the AFL, but its attempts at addressing it are clumsy & based on crowds (yes, its just one measure), success is rare e.g Launceston crowds fluctuate. Of course it pulls money into some cash strapped clubs ( helped Benny & the Tiges no end, & they havent been back).

That some fans would need to take a dose is beyond doubt, & some would sook, same as WA & SA fans. Subi is going thru a purple patch, but its not the big deal it was once, & I've sucked up.

& there is no doubt some fans still put Vic footy ahead of the national comp.
 

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Being a citizen near Joondalup I can tell you even though the population numbers support the notion, actually getting supporters on board would be difficult.

Forget the finances, logistics etc. etc. - getting a local fan base would be the most difficult.

It would take a big WAFL club with a huge following to attract a fan base. Forget a new franchise because no one but no one in this town is going to jump ship from the dockers or eagles (yeah I know they all did for those two teams) for a blow in upstart.

Problem is (or is it?) that if it were to be a big WAFL club some would jump ship from the two current AFL teams and go back to their original following before the inception of the current teams.

Probably not enough to jeopardize Freo's position (not even gonna entertain the thought of the other - pfft, billionaires with members in the waiting) but enough to make that 3rd team a real 3rd opponent here.

That would be seriously detrimental to the WAFL and it's ability to bring new talent to the top comp maybe hindered (unless a squad was also allowed to exist, like Ade in the SANFL).

A brand new team, even if fully funded would not turn any heads and honestly would not be feasible.

That is of course speculation but a fair one.
 

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There has been talks recently about a Tassie Team becoming the 19th team in the competition by the mid 2020s. Would a 3rd WA team fill the roll of the 20th to even out the competition? I would think a 3rd Perth team is needed like a Tasmanian team. This would give WA teams less travel then they already have and I would give the state a well needed 3rd Team to support. With the New Stadium as well, I think WA could have a 3rd team.
 

juss

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There has been talks recently about a Tassie Team becoming the 19th team in the competition by the mid 2020s. Would a 3rd WA team fill the roll of the 20th to even out the competition? I would think a 3rd Perth team is needed like a Tasmanian team. This would give WA teams less travel then they already have and I would give the state a well needed 3rd Team to support. With the New Stadium as well, I think WA could have a 3rd team.
Playing devils advocate, a 3rd WA team, who would follow them? WA is already a footy mad state with parochial passionate crowds that support existing teams. Who's gonna jump ship? You're not bringing any new fans to the game with a new team in WA.
 

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A Tasmanian and WA3 expansion wouldn't be a financial decision for the AFL. Tasmanian AFL would cost money without expanding a new market, WA3 would cost approximately $100,000,000 over four to five years (based off the $24m the AFL paid into GWS in 2017) to operate and won't attract any new fans to AFL that wouldn't already be heading to either WCE or Freo.

If Tasmania needs a team, I think the AFL will pay a lot of money to an existing club to play 11 games in Tasmania and call them "home games" while playing their remaining 11 games in Melbourne and calling them "away games". No WA trips, No SA trips, No NSW trips, No QLD trips.

That would be a sweet deal. Either playing at the MCG, Marvel or Tasmania for the whole year.
 

jmac91

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Playing devils advocate, a 3rd WA team, who would follow them? WA is already a footy mad state with parochial passionate crowds that support existing teams. Who's gonna jump ship? You're not bringing any new fans to the game with a new team in WA.
How would you know that fans won't jump ship. Lets say a new team in Melbourne joined (now this won't happen at all but just listen to me) nobody would support them because their families have been supporting there team for 50+ years. now you put a 3rd team in WA, A state that only has 2 teams, people would instantly join the supporter base because they are their team. When the Dockers joined, the Eagles were only just in their 9th year, And if you add a new team in, the Eagles are into their 32nd year and Freo's in their 24th year. This doesn't mean that people will instantly go towards going for the other team but, If you have a gradual increase over couple of years, they could turn into a powerhouse supporter base. they would get at least 20,000 members in their first year (the Eagles have at leased 15,000 waiting list members)(this is just saying if they want to go for the new team). WA needs a 3rd team and the AFL needs a 3rd AFL team.
 

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A Tasmanian and WA3 expansion wouldn't be a financial decision for the AFL. Tasmanian AFL would cost money without expanding a new market, WA3 would cost approximately $100,000,000 over four to five years (based off the $24m the AFL paid into GWS in 2017) to operate and won't attract any new fans to AFL that wouldn't already be heading to either WCE or Freo.

If Tasmania needs a team, I think the AFL will pay a lot of money to an existing club to play 11 games in Tasmania and call them "home games" while playing their remaining 11 games in Melbourne and calling them "away games". No WA trips, No SA trips, No NSW trips, No QLD trips.

That would be a sweet deal. Either playing at the MCG, Marvel or Tasmania for the whole year.
wow, that's a pretty easy year on the road. What if they play a final interstate (Not in Victoria). Would they easily be defeated? But I do like your Idea though
 

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If Tasmania needs a team, I think the AFL will pay a lot of money to an existing club to play 11 games in Tasmania and call them "home games" while playing their remaining 11 games in Melbourne and calling them "away games". No WA trips, No SA trips, No NSW trips, No QLD trips.

That would be a sweet deal. Either playing at the MCG, Marvel or Tasmania for the whole year.
nah, would never happen - if there was at least one trip annually to WA, SA, NSW and Qld, and then the remaining 18 games were split between tas and melb that could be an idea - either 9 in melb (of which 1 in geelong every 2nd year) and 9 in tassy, or 10 and 8 etc.
but the team would have to play at least once in each state
 

Tayl0r

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How would you know that fans won't jump ship. Lets say a new team in Melbourne joined (now this won't happen at all but just listen to me) nobody would support them because their families have been supporting there team for 50+ years. now you put a 3rd team in WA, A state that only has 2 teams, people would instantly join the supporter base because they are their team. When the Dockers joined, the Eagles were only just in their 9th year, And if you add a new team in, the Eagles are into their 32nd year and Freo's in their 24th year. This doesn't mean that people will instantly go towards going for the other team but, If you have a gradual increase over couple of years, they could turn into a powerhouse supporter base. they would get at least 20,000 members in their first year (the Eagles have at leased 15,000 waiting list members)(this is just saying if they want to go for the new team). WA needs a 3rd team and the AFL needs a 3rd AFL team.
They might get those member numbers, but those people were already watching football on Friday and Saturday nights, they aren't expanding the AFL reach by putting more clubs in an already tapped market - it doesn't make the AFL product more valuable to a broadcaster because that game on Friday night is still being watched by the same number of people. NSW audiences though, different story.

wow, that's a pretty easy year on the road. What if they play a final interstate (Not in Victoria). Would they easily be defeated? But I do like your Idea though
It would be seen by interstate teams as a really easy travel schedule but would probably work out about the same distance traveled over the season as a regular Melbourne team would cover, it's the clubs that play eight weeks in a row in Melbourne that would see it as a massive burden to their side having to get into a plane to travel every second week.
 

NoobPie

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A Tasmanian and WA3 expansion wouldn't be a financial decision for the AFL. Tasmanian AFL would cost money without expanding a new market, WA3 would cost approximately $100,000,000 over four to five years (based off the $24m the AFL paid into GWS in 2017) to operate and won't attract any new fans to AFL that wouldn't already be heading to either WCE or Freo.

If Tasmania needs a team, I think the AFL will pay a lot of money to an existing club to play 11 games in Tasmania and call them "home games" while playing their remaining 11 games in Melbourne and calling them "away games". No WA trips, No SA trips, No NSW trips, No QLD trips.

That would be a sweet deal. Either playing at the MCG, Marvel or Tasmania for the whole year.
But that wouldn't be a Tasmanian team. It is barely better than they are getting now

I think the idea would be that a Tasmanian team will essentially evolve out of the Tasmanian Devils and play in the VFL along the way to becoming an AFL club in the middle of next decade. This "task force" will need to develop the momentum so that, at least in the initial decade, it gets no more than the AFL distribution. For this it would need a long term government and corporate commitment, and likely get stadium access at peppercorn rent.

Likewise a WA3 would have to be funded out of WA. It would be justified by the fact that it would better align the number of professional football clubs in WA with the market size and player nursery. It would create 4 new "derbies" including an extra game at perth stadium for the Eagles and the Dockers (and 1 less travel game).

Certainly though there would be no reason the AFL would expand in this way if it meant two extra clubs on longer term special funding arrangements like the Giants and the Suns. These are only justified on the basis that they are expanding the game
 

Kwality

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How would you know that fans won't jump ship. Lets say a new team in Melbourne joined (now this won't happen at all but just listen to me) nobody would support them because their families have been supporting there team for 50+ years. now you put a 3rd team in WA, A state that only has 2 teams, people would instantly join the supporter base because they are their team. When the Dockers joined, the Eagles were only just in their 9th year, And if you add a new team in, the Eagles are into their 32nd year and Freo's in their 24th year. This doesn't mean that people will instantly go towards going for the other team but, If you have a gradual increase over couple of years, they could turn into a powerhouse supporter base. they would get at least 20,000 members in their first year (the Eagles have at leased 15,000 waiting list members)(this is just saying if they want to go for the new team). WA needs a 3rd team and the AFL needs a 3rd AFL team.
Seriously question your assertion that a few current club members would bail out & join a new club, or that few if any of the In The Wings Eagles wait list would change allegiance.
 

juss

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How would you know that fans won't jump ship. Lets say a new team in Melbourne joined (now this won't happen at all but just listen to me) nobody would support them because their families have been supporting there team for 50+ years. now you put a 3rd team in WA, A state that only has 2 teams, people would instantly join the supporter base because they are their team. When the Dockers joined, the Eagles were only just in their 9th year, And if you add a new team in, the Eagles are into their 32nd year and Freo's in their 24th year. This doesn't mean that people will instantly go towards going for the other team but, If you have a gradual increase over couple of years, they could turn into a powerhouse supporter base. they would get at least 20,000 members in their first year (the Eagles have at leased 15,000 waiting list members)(this is just saying if they want to go for the new team). WA needs a 3rd team and the AFL needs a 3rd AFL team.
So they wont get any new fans, and the fans they do get will be second hand ones that jumped ship at the first sign of a better option. That doesnt exactly bode well for a long term group of supportive fans for the new club does it?

A 3rd WA club isnt an automatic good idea just because West Coast have a waiting list. They are waiting for a reason and it's not for a new team.
 
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