Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

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Tonatopia

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here's my take on it. Some fans will jump on board, even some eagles and dockers fans will sign in to help prop them up.

But we gotta talk how they will be for the 1st 5-10 years. I think for the 1st 5 years they will struggle to pull 20,000 a game. But once they make finals and play finals in years 6-9 like GWS did, they will get a few casuals and bandwagon fans and go up to 30-35,000 fans a game
Interesting.

The WCE with its $110M in assets and annual profit of about $10M per year, would probably worth about $500M.
If the AFL decided to deregulate the league, the WCE would just get more powerful and be worth more money.

I wonder if a new Perth team would be a good financial investment if a privateer decided to own and finance the new startup?
Could it become a $100M asset?
 

Kwality

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---bump----

Ive never been to Perth, is someone able to give me a summary on the football dynamics in Perth, without me going thru the 39 pages,
specifically;

1. If Perth was 'allowed' to make an entry, would it be a WAFL (owned) initiative, or other?
2. Considering the Eagles exist, why would people support Perth? Is there a demand?
3. Does Perth Stadium 'sell out' for every Eagles home game? If so, how many Eagles supporters miss out on a seat (estimate)?

thank you
1. I'd be surprised if the licence wasn't given to the WAFC as was the case for Freo. Note not the WAFL
2. Perth FC is WAFL club with a proud history so that name was rejected.
Given Freo has had a slow build up of members compared to the Eagles, I could not see a 3rd club being financially viable before 2040. Someone would need to pick up the tab.
3. The Eagles basically do sell out their seat allocation with season tickets, say 50k seats, & the 10k other seating is allocated for tourism/visiting clubs / general admission etc including some for 3 & 5 seat Eagles members.
Based on 100k members, 40k dont get in.
 

Kwality

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Were the eagles a "State" Side? Yes they were. Did they have access to all WA talent? No they didnt. They didnt get the likes of Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar and earl Spalding in 1987.

out of the 35 eagles players, only 5 or 6 of them played for VFL clubs, One was an ageing Ross Glendenning, another is an injury prone Phil Narkle. So essentially, the VFL forced the Eagles to choose a lot of 18-21 year olds which was a blessing in disguise as 6 years later, those 18-21 year olds in 1987 were 24-27 year olds in 1992, the year West coast won their 1st flag.

Crows Had access to SANFL talent. But Stephen Kernahan and Richard Champion and John Platten Didnt join the crows in 1991. I was suprised the Crows didnt look at Mark Naley after he left Carlton in 1990. Sure he was 30 years old, but he Played 4 years at Carlton and played in their premiership in 1987. He won the Magary medal in 1991, the equivalent of a Brownlow medal.
The Eagles were not initially an Origin squad but that squad had 36 players compared to 50 + on VFL squads. In the process of balancing the numbers, the Eagles were given sole access to WA players & loaded up on local boys & by 1992 the Eagles squad became an Origin squad.
 

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Tonatopia

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1. I'd be surprised if the licence wasn't given to the WAFC as was the case for Freo. Note not the WAFL
2. Perth FC is WAFL club with a proud history so that name was rejected.
Given Freo has had a slow build up of members compared to the Eagles, I could not see a 3rd club being financially viable before 2040. Someone would need to pick up the tab.
3. The Eagles basically do sell out their seat allocation with season tickets, say 50k seats, & the 10k other seating is allocated for tourism/visiting clubs / general admission etc including some for 3 & 5 seat Eagles members.
Based on 100k members, 40k dont get in.
1. What is the WAFC?
2. It would probably be called Perth United FC, or Something like that.
But Fremantle is a different district, why would Perth residents want to follow Fremantle? Is that a fair comparison?
3. 40k miss out? Wowee. You'd think there is a market for another Perth team.

Wow, 40k don't get a seat?
 

Kwality

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Interesting.

The WCE with its $110M in assets and annual profit of about $10M per year, would probably worth about $500M.
If the AFL decided to deregulate the league, the WCE would just get more powerful and be worth more money.

I wonder if a new Perth team would be a good financial investment if a privateer decided to own and finance the new startup?
Could it become a $100M asset?
A South African company had a serious look at the Eagles but it was not for sale. It is owned by WA football & has pumped more than $100mil + into the local game ( not just the WAFL) as does Freo.
 

Tonatopia

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A South African company had a serious look at the Eagles but it was not for sale. It is owned by WA football & has pumped more than $100mil + into the local game ( not just the WAFL) as does Freo.
Based on that, you'd think a privateer would jump at the opportunity to start and finance a 3rd Perth team.

Our only obstacle is the AFL, and their closed 1 dimensional structure.
 

The_Wookie

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I'd be surprised if the licence wasn't given to the WAFC as was the case for Freo. Note not the WAFL
Id be astonished. The AFL has made no secret of its desire to one day get the WAFC out of its AFL clubs (issue being cost - unlike the SANFL, they havent run their clubs into the ground). They wont get another license. Id put money on that if i was a betting man.

Note: I dont have an issue with the WAFC owning licenses for the good of the game in WA - more state bodies should have a stake in their local AFL teams.

Based on that, you'd think a privateer would jump at the opportunity to start and finance a 3rd Perth team.
If the AFL even allowed private ownership, which its currently very much against.

Our only obstacle is the AFL, and their closed 1 dimensional structure.
And its not going to change any time soon.
 

Kwality

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1. What is the WAFC?
2. It would probably be called Perth United FC, or Something like that.
But Fremantle is a different district, why would Perth residents want to follow Fremantle? Is that a fair comparison?
3. 40k miss out? Wowee. You'd think there is a market for another Perth team.

Wow, 40k don't get a seat?
The national comp suffers badly from the number of teams in Melbourne, we all know the history.
The WAFC is the WA equivalent of the national controlling body, the Commission controlling the AFL.
It was formed to control a bankrupt WAFL effectively as the Commission controlling the AFL.
Then in the early 90s the company that had the Eagles licence went broke & the WA State Govt stepped in giving us what we have today.

Thats a potted version of what happened off field in those years.
See www.footyindustry.com for a comprehensive & informative history of those days.













ce
 
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Kwality

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Private Equity?
Is that a corporate investment firm?
Or citizens private equity via a share investment model?
Its an investment model where they buy an asset looking to sell at a much higher price & sport is one of the areas they are keen to look at. They are actively looking
at the A-League & its individual clubs, the NRL,& Rugby Union locally & internationally.
Type private equity into Google News & you will get the latest action.
 

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Freomaniac

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For all the issues WAFC has, I would not want the AFL owning the WA licenses.
And Rightfully so....

Eagles have 50-60 million in Cash. Once the AFL owns your club, they will take that money and give to the Victorian clubs
 

Kwality

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For all the issues WAFC has, I would not want the AFL owning the WA licenses.

The AFL offer the licences to the clubs in a franchise style arrangement, & the WAFC hold the licences for WA & sub licence the WA clubs.
It works well for WA footy.

SA was similar but the clubs were SOLD (back effectively ?) to the members by the SANFL.
Messy deal.
 
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kranger

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Perth population ~ 2,100,000 @ +2.5% P.A.

Having three WA teams would result in a population share of 700k per team in 2015 (600k per Vic team).

Doubling up games with Fremantle and West Coast would save one of the existing clubs up to 4 flights to and from eastern states each year.

Looking at demographics the most likely region of Perth to gain a team would be in the Northern suburbs.

It will be interesting to see how successful Perth Stadium turns out to be.

View attachment 241406
I would say give Perth two new teams. Peel and Joondalup. Both teams would play games against West Coast, Freo and each other at Optus, but all other teams at their own localised ground.

This gives Freo and West Coast two less trips to the east coast each and Optus Stadium gets 6 more games. Perth gets two new 25,000 seat stadiums within walking distance of existing train stations. Perth would have two games a week, which gives the AFL more flexibility to have late broadcasting time slots (such as Sunday nights into the east coast), which more teams on the east coast can not provide.

Peel, based at an upgraded Rushton Park similar to Carrara Stadium. The Peel region consists of the local governments of:

City of Mandurah;
Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale;
Shire of Boddington;
Shire of Murray;
Shire of Waroona;

For a total population of 140,000: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_(Western_Australia)

It is considered to have a separate identity to Perth, and in a straight line is the same distance from Perth, as Geelong is from Melbourne.

The City of Rockingham is located between the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale and the coast, abutting the City of Mandurah’s northern boundary. So let’s add their population of 140,000, giving a total of 280,000 for this new AFL team, which is the same as Geelong.

This Peel team could also tap into the south-west of WA, since Bunbury is only a 75min drive from Rushton Park, compared to 110min to Optus Stadium.


Joondalup, based at an upgraded Joondalup Arena similar to the Sydney Showgrounds Stadium. Joondalup Arena is 25km north of Perth CBD in a straight line, which is a slightly longer distance than it is from the MCG to Waverley Park.

Joondalup is thought to be the CBD for Perth’s northern suburbs, with a large economic hub, including WA’s largest shopping centre, a police academy and a university campus, amongst other things.

The local government area of the City of Joondalup has a population of 160,000, with the neighbouring City of Wanneroo (from which Joondalup actually split from) has a population of 200,000 for a total of 360,000.

The City of Wanneroo also takes in the development areas of Yanchep and East Wanneroo, both of which are expected to have populations of over 150,000 each in the next several decades.
 

Tonatopia

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I would say give Perth two new teams. Peel and Joondalup. Both teams would play games against West Coast, Freo and each other at Optus, but all other teams at their own localised ground.

This gives Freo and West Coast two less trips to the east coast each and Optus Stadium gets 6 more games. Perth gets two new 25,000 seat stadiums within walking distance of existing train stations. Perth would have two games a week, which gives the AFL more flexibility to have late broadcasting time slots (such as Sunday nights into the east coast), which more teams on the east coast can not provide.

Peel, based at an upgraded Rushton Park similar to Carrara Stadium. The Peel region consists of the local governments of:

City of Mandurah;
Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale;
Shire of Boddington;
Shire of Murray;
Shire of Waroona;

For a total population of 140,000: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_(Western_Australia)

It is considered to have a separate identity to Perth, and in a straight line is the same distance from Perth, as Geelong is from Melbourne.

The City of Rockingham is located between the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale and the coast, abutting the City of Mandurah’s northern boundary. So let’s add their population of 140,000, giving a total of 280,000 for this new AFL team, which is the same as Geelong.

This Peel team could also tap into the south-west of WA, since Bunbury is only a 75min drive from Rushton Park, compared to 110min to Optus Stadium.


Joondalup, based at an upgraded Joondalup Arena similar to the Sydney Showgrounds Stadium. Joondalup Arena is 25km north of Perth CBD in a straight line, which is a slightly longer distance than it is from the MCG to Waverley Park.

Joondalup is thought to be the CBD for Perth’s northern suburbs, with a large economic hub, including WA’s largest shopping centre, a police academy and a university campus, amongst other things.

The local government area of the City of Joondalup has a population of 160,000, with the neighbouring City of Wanneroo (from which Joondalup actually split from) has a population of 200,000 for a total of 360,000.

The City of Wanneroo also takes in the development areas of Yanchep and East Wanneroo, both of which are expected to have populations of over 150,000 each in the next several decades.
And Bunbury/ Busselton/ Margaret River region?

I'm sure Joondalup could be integrated into Perth greater region, are would be represented by WCE or a future Perth side.

The aim of regional teams, is to allow the local population to have access to premium grade football which represents there region.

Is there a possibility that Peel and Bunbury could be represented in their own right?
 

Tonatopia

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I would say give Perth two new teams. Peel and Joondalup. Both teams would play games against West Coast, Freo and each other at Optus, but all other teams at their own localised ground.

This gives Freo and West Coast two less trips to the east coast each and Optus Stadium gets 6 more games. Perth gets two new 25,000 seat stadiums within walking distance of existing train stations. Perth would have two games a week, which gives the AFL more flexibility to have late broadcasting time slots (such as Sunday nights into the east coast), which more teams on the east coast can not provide.

Peel, based at an upgraded Rushton Park similar to Carrara Stadium. The Peel region consists of the local governments of:

City of Mandurah;
Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale;
Shire of Boddington;
Shire of Murray;
Shire of Waroona;

For a total population of 140,000: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_(Western_Australia)

It is considered to have a separate identity to Perth, and in a straight line is the same distance from Perth, as Geelong is from Melbourne.

The City of Rockingham is located between the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale and the coast, abutting the City of Mandurah’s northern boundary. So let’s add their population of 140,000, giving a total of 280,000 for this new AFL team, which is the same as Geelong.

This Peel team could also tap into the south-west of WA, since Bunbury is only a 75min drive from Rushton Park, compared to 110min to Optus Stadium.


Joondalup, based at an upgraded Joondalup Arena similar to the Sydney Showgrounds Stadium. Joondalup Arena is 25km north of Perth CBD in a straight line, which is a slightly longer distance than it is from the MCG to Waverley Park.

Joondalup is thought to be the CBD for Perth’s northern suburbs, with a large economic hub, including WA’s largest shopping centre, a police academy and a university campus, amongst other things.

The local government area of the City of Joondalup has a population of 160,000, with the neighbouring City of Wanneroo (from which Joondalup actually split from) has a population of 200,000 for a total of 360,000.

The City of Wanneroo also takes in the development areas of Yanchep and East Wanneroo, both of which are expected to have populations of over 150,000 each in the next several decades.
What about Geraldton?
A team that could represent and develop players from NTH WA?
 

RedV3x

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I would say give Perth two new teams. Peel and Joondalup.
I like your enthusiasm but
1. Peel Thunder struggled in the WAFL and has only made slight headway becoming the Dockers reserve team.
The proff of the pudding is in Peel Thunder.
2. Joondalup is basically a fail as a city as there is no greenbelt separation with Perth. It is simply just another suburban mall.
The government thought so much of the Joondalup Falcons that they reneged on building the railway station close by.
The West Perth f.c. thought so much of Joondalup that they refused to change names despite a hefty financial incentive.

I would be more inclined to hang my hat on Bunbury. A number of people from Bunbury do make the drive for AFL games.
 

kranger

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I like your enthusiasm but
1. Peel Thunder struggled in the WAFL and has only made slight headway becoming the Dockers reserve team.
The proff of the pudding is in Peel Thunder.
2. Joondalup is basically a fail as a city as there is no greenbelt separation with Perth. It is simply just another suburban mall.
The government thought so much of the Joondalup Falcons that they reneged on building the railway station close by.
The West Perth f.c. thought so much of Joondalup that they refused to change names despite a hefty financial incentive.

I would be more inclined to hang my hat on Bunbury. A number of people from Bunbury do make the drive for AFL games.
Although, there may be some hope for these areas with an AFL team.

West Perth moved to Joondalup in 1994, when it was clear the WAFL was the second tier of footy, with the Eagles doing well in the AFL and Fremantle preparing to join them.

And Peel joined the WAFL in 1997. Why would anyone in the two areas support the second tier teams, when they could support the teams in the top tier?

It is a concern that I have, that WAFL crowds are going to continue to decline as the older generations who were apart of the golden age of the WAFL from the 60’s to the 70’s pass away. None of the WAFL clubs really seem to have big youth followings, so I’m a couple of years Peel and West Perth will be no smaller than the other 7 clubs who were well established before the AFL.

So I don’t think it is quite fair to compare a relocation and new team in the second tier WAFL in these areas, to brining in new teams in the first tier AFL in the areas.

They might struggle for 20 years, but consider it as a generational thing similar to GWS and Gold Coast. That can let the AFL suckle more money out of WA, but the two new teams can pay big licence fees to the WAFC to support local footy.
 

Kwality

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And Bunbury/ Busselton/ Margaret River region?

I'm sure Joondalup could be integrated into Perth greater region, are would be represented by WCE or a future Perth side.

The aim of regional teams, is to allow the local population to have access to premium grade football which represents there region.

Is there a possibility that Peel and Bunbury could be represented in their own right?
In the WAFL ?
Players have been flying into Perth from the bush since the 60s.
 

RedV3x

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Although, there may be some hope for these areas with an AFL team.
There's always hope but the facts are these two areas follow either of the two established teams.

Why would anyone in the two areas support the second tier teams, when they could support the teams in the top tier?
Because without home grown local support you're merely asking people to jump ship to another AFL team.

It is a concern that I have, that WAFL crowds are going to continue to decline.
Mine too, but WAFL crowds are marginally up and they are attracting a new set of followers - basically those rapped in the AFL scenario.
Strangely it's not just the football that is attractive at the WAFL - it's cheap, convenient, accessible, cheap food and drinks with plenty of space.

So I don’t think it is quite fair to compare a relocation and new team in the second tier WAFL in these areas, to brining in new teams in the first tier AFL in the areas.

So I don’t think it is quite fair to compare a relocation and new team in the second tier WAFL in these areas, to brining in new teams in the first tier AFL in the areas.

it's a comparison nether-the-less and the indications are disappointing.
Many people thought West Perth were being gifted success, much like VFL people thought the Swans ere gifted success. The reality is opposite.
Many people were spruiking Peel as an AFL side before inclusion in the WAFL yet they haven't produced even with the inclusion of Dockers.
They might struggle for 20 years,
They would definitely struggle for at least 20 years with Fremantle being the example.

consider it as a generational thing similar to GWS and Gold Coast.
There is nothing to consider.
An additional AFL side in Perth brings almost nothing to the table.
That is also the same argument against Tasmania unfortunately.
There is much more to be gained by having two powerful AFL clubs playing weekly and in finals etc.
 

Asapartyhat

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Were the eagles a "State" Side? Yes they were. Did they have access to all WA talent? No they didnt. They didnt get the likes of Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar and earl Spalding in 1987.

out of the 35 eagles players, only 5 or 6 of them played for VFL clubs, One was an ageing Ross Glendenning, another is an injury prone Phil Narkle. So essentially, the VFL forced the Eagles to choose a lot of 18-21 year olds which was a blessing in disguise as 6 years later, those 18-21 year olds in 1987 were 24-27 year olds in 1992, the year West coast won their 1st flag.

Crows Had access to SANFL talent. But Stephen Kernahan and Richard Champion and John Platten Didnt join the crows in 1991. I was suprised the Crows didnt look at Mark Naley after he left Carlton in 1990. Sure he was 30 years old, but he Played 4 years at Carlton and played in their premiership in 1987. He won the Magary medal in 1991, the equivalent of a Brownlow medal.
Not bad summation on the original West Coast squad. At the time in 1987 somewhere around 60 WAFL players had moved to other vfl teams and there was a limit of four VFL recruits allowed by the vfl so the Eagles were left with the best of the overlooked WAFL talent to use and it took a bit of visionary thinking by second coach John Todd to get ahead of the curve and start recruiting the best 17 and 18 year olds ..Before that vfl talent scouts were not interested in recruiting future prospects ,they were mostly interested in seasoned more mature players that were proven at WAFL level and could come in as an instant player
 

Kwality

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We could reduce the standard of WAFL footy by bringing in more teams, it would not increase crowds, nor do anything for game development.
 

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