Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

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Kwality

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The notion of a national reserves comp OR Div2 pro/rel?
Its happening mate.
😉
Great to see you punching on, not that I buy what you are selling.

My reference is to the post I replied to.

As to your ongoing template for our game, what works in the UK is fine, as is any other market, or sport, applying these lessons to Aus is the difficulty. Even comparing Vic to other States presents major difficulty as the VFL & WAFL were well aware in the 80s.

Dont believe TV contract money is gifted to anyone, that contract\s is a 2 way street, as are sponsorship dollars to the clubs.

Keep punching :openmouth:
 

RedV3x

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In Vic the historic VAFA clubs were a part of the rejig of footy by the AFL, & form part of Vics 2nd tier. There is little connection to elite U18s that are the biggest group on draft day.
None of the above will go away with a national Reserves comp.
I lost interest in Victorian football when they (?) made all those changes apparently just to improve the pathway.
What most people, especially AFL people fail to comprehend is that clubs are spending an absolute fortune for the "edge".
They've being doing that virtually from inception with buying the best players from outside.
If everybody is chasing the edge then nobody achieves the edge. So why not simply remove the edge ?
The best players will always be the best - all things being equal.
So let's make all things equal. We have a player salary cap so why not a coaching staff salary cap etc.
Having a reserves competition doesn't improve football overall.
 

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RedV3x

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I’m pretty sure this is how many West Australians still perceive the eastern states of Australia.


View attachment 1193885

So if there was a new Tassie team and a new Perth team, West Australians would get behind both of them.
That is not quite true, today, at least.
With Covid19, West Australians see the need for an iron border along the NT & SA border.
Philosophically, West Australians see the need for an iron border along the NT & SA border.
Economically, West Australians see the need for an iron border along the NT & SA border but at least along the WA border.
 

TWLS

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I’m pretty sure this is how many West Australians still perceive the eastern states of Australia.


View attachment 1193885

So if there was a new Tassie team and a new Perth team, West Australians would get behind both of them.
I like your thinking on this. We are only in the Commonwealth because of many reasons including.
The 1901 poll to join the Commonwealth was influenced by the "yes vote" in the gold mining regions with the influx of Victorian miners.
How do I know this I am a descendant of a large family of Blacksmiths from Victoria who came over in the late 1890`s. I have spent many years researching the stuff.
Also the Commonwealth dangled the offer to the then Premier Forrest of a railway line to connect to the network in the east. That line took until 1917 I think to be built - Only 16 years after but you cannot rush these things.
There was a secession poll in the 1930`s which was won by the Yes vote which included my ancestors.
However the Poms and Canberra would not back it and it fell apart. Realistically it was years too late - 1901 was the time historically NOT to join.
Every State election since throws up a secession party but does not get much support. We are too interconnected now.
 

Kwality

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I like your thinking on this. We are only in the Commonwealth because of many reasons including.
The 1901 poll to join the Commonwealth was influenced by the "yes vote" in the gold mining regions with the influx of Victorian miners.
How do I know this I am a descendant of a large family of Blacksmiths from Victoria who came over in the late 1890`s. I have spent many years researching the stuff.
Also the Commonwealth dangled the offer to the then Premier Forrest of a railway line to connect to the network in the east. That line took until 1917 I think to be built - Only 16 years after but you cannot rush these things.
There was a secession poll in the 1930`s which was won by the Yes vote which included my ancestors.
However the Poms and Canberra would not back it and it fell apart. Realistically it was years too late - 1901 was the time historically NOT to join.
Every State election since throws up a secession party but does not get much support. We are too interconnected now.
My maternal grandmother was born in Ireland & came to WA (from Vic) in the late 1890s. My mother (b 1916) often referred to the 'yes vote' in exactly the same way you describe.
The strongest secession discussion of my time was the Whitlam era, but nothing came of it.

Digressing, but the failure of the WA Senators to support a better deal for their State over the GST, was an example of how the founding fathers template to protect States rights had failed comprehensively.
 
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RedV3x

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The strongest secession discussion of my time was the Whitlam era, but nothing came of it.
Succession lies just beneath the surface and arises every now again but like a petulant child threatening to take his bat & ball home.
People talk about doing it but not how they are going to do it.

Digressing, but the failure of the WA Senators to support a better deal for their State over the GST, was an example of how the founding fathers template to protect States rights had failed comprehensively.
IMO this Covid19 thing has really galvanised West Australians. The economy is booming
and it has been shown that we don't need the rest of Australia. In fact NSW is like a big anchor a.t.m.
Federal politicians continue to throw money at NSW and Qld projects rather than real infrastructure.
 

kranger

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Perhaps a 3rd WA team could be the much suggested Peel, but based in Rockingham and not Mandurah.

The area of local governments for Rockingham, Kwinana, Serpentine-Jarrahdale, Murray and Mandurah had a population of 300,000 in 2018. That is forecast to double by 2046.

Rockingham is only 38km from the Perth CBD, compared to Mandurah’s 66km. And they are 34min and 51min train rides from Perth respectively, with Mandurah soon to be longer with two new infill train stations coming soon. Meaning Rockingham is quicker and easier for people in the rest of Perth to get to.

A Boutique Stadium could be located at Anniversary Park, on the south side of Council Avenue (opposite Rockingham Shopping Centre). A 20min walk from Rockingham Train Station, and 40min walk from Rockingham Beach Foreshore. It could try and replace Ruston Park as the stadium in Perth’s south, and host WBBL matches and pre-season Freo or WCE games. Also providing Perth with a second AFL quality venue, which would have been beneficial when Perth hosted all of the Covid affected Victorian games.

Some fear a Peel team might eat into the Freo supporters based south of the Swan River. But I see the supporters for Freo and WCE as being rather distributed around Perth and WA. There might be some larger concentration in areas such as Freo. But overall it’s a good distribution, and I imagine a third team would do the same over time.

Some suggest a Peel AFL team won’t be viable as the Peel WAFL team has struggled to grow. But the WAFL is no longer the elite level, and the other WAFL clubs are no longer growing. A Peel AFL team based in Rockingham is a different kettle of fish, and it could do well and help grow the identity of the region.
 

RedV3x

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Some suggest a Peel AFL team won’t be viable as the Peel WAFL team has struggled to grow.
Quite rightly.

But the WAFL is no longer the elite level, and the other WAFL clubs are no longer growing.
The whole of Perth is growing - that is the impetus behind the Perth3 suggestion.

A Peel AFL team based in Rockingham is a different kettle of fish, and it could do well and help grow the identity of the region.
It would if it could, but it isn't.
 

rdrdrdrd

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Team #19 has to be Tasmania - we all agree on that. I would re-badge Gold Coast as The Northern Suns who play their home games across Darwin, Alice Springs and the Gold Coast. GWS should become the Eastern Giants and play their home games between Canberra and Sydney. So the AFL would then have teams for the footy fans of TAS, ACT and NT to support. The 20th team is either a 3rd WA or SA team and I lean towards a 3rd SA team - merge SANFL clubs Sturt & Norwood and provided the merger is done fairly and properly this new club would attract all the disenchanted Sturt and Norwood fans currently and reluctantly supporting the Crows.
 

Kwality

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Team #19 has to be Tasmania - we all agree on that. I would re-badge Gold Coast as The Northern Suns who play their home games across Darwin, Alice Springs and the Gold Coast. GWS should become the Eastern Giants and play their home games between Canberra and Sydney. So the AFL would then have teams for the footy fans of TAS, ACT and NT to support. The 20th team is either a 3rd WA or SA team and I lean towards a 3rd SA team - merge SANFL clubs Sturt & Norwood and provided the merger is done fairly and properly this new club would attract all the disenchanted Sturt and Norwood fans currently and reluctantly supporting the Crows.
How is this rebadged Suns team going to attract a support base when they are playing few games anywhere?

Trying to attract support from WAFL/SANFL teams support base isnt a strategy likely to have much success when most SA or WA fans already follow an AFL team.

You have remarkable faith in rebadging teams.
 

Hooker

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Team #19 has to be Tasmania - we all agree on that. I would re-badge Gold Coast as The Northern Suns who play their home games across Darwin, Alice Springs and the Gold Coast. GWS should become the Eastern Giants and play their home games between Canberra and Sydney. So the AFL would then have teams for the footy fans of TAS, ACT and NT to support. The 20th team is either a 3rd WA or SA team and I lean towards a 3rd SA team - merge SANFL clubs Sturt & Norwood and provided the merger is done fairly and properly this new club would attract all the disenchanted Sturt and Norwood fans currently and reluctantly supporting the Crows.
I think kicking out the Crows and bringing in both Norwood and Sturt would be better. Otherwise SA doesn’t need 3 teams. WA doesn’t either for now. Just leave them as they are for now.

Newcastle and Sunshine Coast should be priorities from a business sense. I say try go in for the kill. We’ve broken into QLD so heavily on a participation scale that the NRL felt obligated to make a 4th QLD side. Any other normal sporting organisation would’ve said bring it on and try break into one of our markets - WA or SA. Newcastle would have to be the biggest place in Australia without a club these days. Surely?

Also I’d prefer a Cairns x Townsville hybrid up in Far North Queensland but can’t see many players wanting to live somewhere that takes 15 to 18 hours drive to the nearest capital. That is why I suggested SC. Allow them and GC to sell a few home games to one town each in the same way North and Hawthorn split Hobart and Launceston. I am also for a Tasmanian and NT team but don’t think they’re the best options from a financial and population standpoint.

Hunter Region has over 620,000 people and is still growing: Sunny Coast has 350,000 which is more than us but you invest time in either Cairns or Townsville & there’s that extra 150 to 200k. I still think QLD needs 4 sides though with that being FNQ. These are all growing. Tasmania isn’t and I’m not even against them.
 
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rdrdrdrd

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How is this rebadged Suns team going to attract a support base when they are playing few games anywhere?

Trying to attract support from WAFL/SANFL teams support base isnt a strategy likely to have much success when most SA or WA fans already follow an AFL team.

You have remarkable faith in rebadging teams.
May not have to rebadge the Suns now ! Media reports today that the NT Govt looking at their own entry into the AFL - so NT could become the 20th team instead of the 3rd SA team. That NT team could split its games between Darwin and Alice Springs and could even host a game in Port Moresby to test the waters there. But I still want to rebadge GWS into the Eastern Giants playing half its home games in Canberra. Just like a lot of Launceston folk began supporting Hawthorn in recent years we could see the Canberra residents warming to those Eastern Giants. 10 AFL games a weekend - Thursday night, Friday night with a few double headers being an Eastern States game followed by a Perth night game, 5 Saturday games and then 2 or 3 Sunday games depending on how many Friday night games were played. Newcastle, Sunshine Coast, Cairns/Townsville are all potential teams but I think they would be many years away.
 

Taylor

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Do we need six tenths as many teams as the USA has NFL teams?

We might benefit more as a sport if we added one more team, Los Angeles. The odd number would mean whichever team played in LA would get the next week off. They would need a roster of about 60 players though so they could field almost two sides where half the side stays in LA so they are aren't stuff from 16 hours on a plane.

There's way more viewers there than we will find in NT. It costs over $20,000,000 a year to run an AFL club. It needs to be worth it.
 

Canberra Pear

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Team #19 has to be Tasmania - we all agree on that. I would re-badge Gold Coast as The Northern Suns who play their home games across Darwin, Alice Springs and the Gold Coast. GWS should become the Eastern Giants and play their home games between Canberra and Sydney. So the AFL would then have teams for the footy fans of TAS, ACT and NT to support. The 20th team is either a 3rd WA or SA team and I lean towards a 3rd SA team - merge SANFL clubs Sturt & Norwood and provided the merger is done fairly and properly this new club would attract all the disenchanted Sturt and Norwood fans currently and reluctantly supporting the Crows.
The Eastern Giants would alienate both bases.

You can't expect a Western Sydney fanbase to go for a team with "Eastern" in the name, and no mention of Sydney. They'd have more connection to the Sydney Swans.

Greater Western Sydney will have about 3 million people by 2030, they need their own full-time team.

Canberrans already don't feel GWS is their own, the "Eastern" Giants wouldn't fix that. Canberra makes way more sense for team 20 than a third SA team.
 

Kwality

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May not have to rebadge the Suns now ! Media reports today that the NT Govt looking at their own entry into the AFL - so NT could become the 20th team instead of the 3rd SA team. That NT team could split its games between Darwin and Alice Springs and could even host a game in Port Moresby to test the waters there. But I still want to rebadge GWS into the Eastern Giants playing half its home games in Canberra. Just like a lot of Launceston folk began supporting Hawthorn in recent years we could see the Canberra residents warming to those Eastern Giants. 10 AFL games a weekend - Thursday night, Friday night with a few double headers being an Eastern States game followed by a Perth night game, 5 Saturday games and then 2 or 3 Sunday games depending on how many Friday night games were played. Newcastle, Sunshine Coast, Cairns/Townsville are all potential teams but I think they would be many years away.
:'(
 

Walshawk

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1. Does anyone on Perth want a new team? Just because WC are so strong is no reason for a new team. Who would support a new team. Are a quarter of WC & Freo fans going to change teams? Pass
2. Adelaide? See above, but with half the population.
3. If Tassie comes in, Canberra is the only place close to ready for the 20th club. Places like Darwin, Woolongong, Newcastle, Townsville need to do what Canberra, Launceston and Hobart have done and be in a position to host three or four AFL games in decent stadiums before that can be considered.
4. If Tassie come in, you will have North, Hawks and probably Saints looking to play games in secondary markets. See 3 above and get some games in these places.
5. To grow the game in NSW, I would be doing a deal with NSW that the GF is played in Sydney when the Southern Stand @ MCG is rebuilt (around 2030) on the condition that Newcastle and Woolongong get 11K - 12K stadiums, and ANZ remains oval.
6. Consider moving GWS out of Canberra (in 5 -10 years). One game each in Newcastle and Wollongong
7. More games in Canberra market - Hawks, Saints, Roos play 4 - 6 games between them including away games V GWS.
 

Kwality

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1. Does anyone on Perth want a new team? Just because WC are so strong is no reason for a new team. Who would support a new team. Are a quarter of WC & Freo fans going to change teams? Pass
What causes the AFL to look to WA is the perception there is demand for the game not being satisfied by the current arrangements, more specifically the waiting list amongst Eagles members for 11 home game seated memberships.
It is the same problem that Cats members at Geelong (hello Brian Cook).

If it were a problem for any of the Melbourne based clubs it would get some media coverage rather than bleat about membership numbers.
 

Walshawk

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What causes the AFL to look to WA is the perception there is demand for the game not being satisfied by the current arrangements, more specifically the waiting list amongst Eagles members for 11 home game seated memberships.
It is the same problem that Cats members at Geelong (hello Brian Cook).

If it were a problem for any of the Melbourne based clubs it would get some media coverage rather than bleat about membership numbers.
Not sure that the AFL has that perception at all. Freo has plenty of capacity. Who would benefit from a third club in Perth?
 

Taylor

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Not sure that the AFL has that perception at all. Freo has plenty of capacity. Who would benefit from a third club in Perth?
Freo had the good fortune of entering the league in a state where almost everyone who liked football already supported West Coast and had seen success with them, locking in the support.

Currently I'd say that 80% of casual fans in WA, who will watch a game but don't know more than four players on their team, are locked in Eagles fans. They just aren't financial.

There isn't a new market being opened up like Eastern States or USA.

The only reason Freo exists is because West Coast was too strong having a clean run at bringing any player home they wanted and stacking their sponsors offices with token job placements for them.
 

Kwality

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Freo had the good fortune of entering the league in a state where almost everyone who liked football already supported West Coast and had seen success with them, locking in the support.

Currently I'd say that 80% of casual fans in WA, who will watch a game but don't know more than four players on their team, are locked in Eagles fans. They just aren't financial.

There isn't a new market being opened up like Eastern States or USA.

The only reason Freo exists is because West Coast was too strong having a clean run at bringing any player home they wanted and stacking their sponsors offices with token job placements for them.
A game in Perth every week was a factor as I recall. Arguably that was driven by the media?
 

RedV3x

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There isn't a new market being opened up like Eastern States or USA.
And people talking about a 3rd Perth team must realise that there is zero talk about it here.

The only reason Freo exists is because West Coast was too strong.
People were disenchanted with the arrogance of the WCE after the first premiership and thought Freo could duplicate their success
snd represent W.A. with a stronger link to traditional football.
 

The_Wookie

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The only reason Freo exists is because West Coast was too strong having a clean run at bringing any player home they wanted and stacking their sponsors offices with token job placements for them.
a Joint south/east freo side considered applying to join the league in 1987 - and was knocked back due to a 5 year exclusivity period that went with the eagles license. the WAFL began looking into a second side as early as 1990, and as soon as the exclusion period was up, the AFL and WAFL began negotiating for the second license.

People were disenchanted with the arrogance of the WCE after the first premiership and thought Freo could duplicate their success
snd represent W.A. with a stronger link to traditional football.
Plans were underway before West Coast even won a flag.
  • 1987, July 24. The West Australian reports that officials of the two Fremantle sides were exploring the possibility of a second club down in the port. However, IPL had a five year exclusive rights clause in their agreement and it was not to be. (behind the play pg 214)
  • 1990. October. The WAFC proceeds witha feasibility study into a second side. (Behind the play pg 284)
  • 1992 – Sometime in 1992, Alan Schwab signs off on a list of draft requirements for a new club based in Fremantle, and due to begin operating in 1993. (Football Limited pg. 354)
  • 1993 – June. The AFL Commission sits down with the WAFC to look at the issues involved in getting a second team off the ground. (The Phoenix Rises pg 156)
  • 1993 – December 15. The AFL announces that it has reached its ceiling of teams with the inclusion of Fremantle, and no more than 16 teams will be in the AFL.
 

Kwality

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a Joint south/east freo side considered applying to join the league in 1987 - and was knocked back due to a 5 year exclusivity period that went with the eagles license. the WAFL began looking into a second side as early as 1990, and as soon as the exclusion period was up, the AFL and WAFL began negotiating for the second license.



Plans were underway before West Coast even won a flag.
  • 1987, July 24. The West Australian reports that officials of the two Fremantle sides were exploring the possibility of a second club down in the port. However, IPL had a five year exclusive rights clause in their agreement and it was not to be. (behind the play pg 214)
  • 1990. October. The WAFC proceeds witha feasibility study into a second side. (Behind the play pg 284)
  • 1992 – Sometime in 1992, Alan Schwab signs off on a list of draft requirements for a new club based in Fremantle, and due to begin operating in 1993. (Football Limited pg. 354)
  • 1993 – June. The AFL Commission sits down with the WAFC to look at the issues involved in getting a second team off the ground. (The Phoenix Rises pg 156)
  • 1993 – December 15. The AFL announces that it has reached its ceiling of teams with the inclusion of Fremantle, and no more than 16 teams will be in the AFL.
The WAFC took ownership of the Eagles in 1990 & the WAFC are the cornerstone of WA footy to this day.
 

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