Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

[Kwality]

The number of Western Australians demanding trades home is big and increasing, and I think it'll only continue to increase as the population boom of the past 15 years results in more WA footballers being produced. Freo and West Coast have a big recruitment advantage in that sense since there are only two clubs to divvy up the returning talent. Look at Freo's trade period this past year, and soon Tim Kelly will be adding to the numbers for either them or West Coast. So another reason I want a third team from Perth is to provide more competition for returnees. This new team should do reasonably well with the talent they can attract back, and we all know that success breeds crowds and support.

While WA puts more players into the player pool than it takes from it, the go home factor will always be a +.

Ita a good example of why the clubs in NSW & Q should have academies & a preferential deal to select the home grown talent.
IMHO the talent from WA, SA & Vic kids should go into the draft, only preference being for father/son.

 

[Carringbush2010]

As a Perth resident I don't see a "new" 3rd team getting off the ground. While the arguments for i:e population and economic growth are somewhat valid it's a bit of a stretch.

The only possible way would be for a WAFL club to be granted a licence, even then WC and Freo would lose some supporter base as the originals of the WAFL team would jump ship back to their original.

Also, a new franchise isn't going to magically attract a fan base from the current WC & Freo - that would be folly to believe so.

There's also been a little inflating of the argument around only two clubs competing for returning WA natives services making those clubs too much of a powerhouse.

Well that myth has been debunked previously in this thread not to mention that Vic still has more participants than any other state / territory also both current teams have non natives on their list - quite a few of them. If it was an issue that WA teams were to overrun the comp from a talent perspective it would have already happened.

 

[Royalbeagle]

I don't think using 2 AL teams in Melbourne who never fill the rectangular stadium because the market isn't that big, is not a real good comparison. That against WCE who do fill a stadium of 60k, who have a waiting list, & in a city in which it seems a lot of kids don't get much chance to see AFL footy.

A bit more competition in Perth & more opportunity for kids to get to games, over time, must be good for the game. Surely

Maybe missed an opportunity to bring the SUBIACO Lions back to their original home at Subi Oval. Have been so dominant for so long now in the WAFL. Oh well, one can dream.

 

[madmug]

Maybe missed an opportunity to bring the SUBIACO Lions back to their original home at Subi Oval. Have been so dominant for so long now in the WAFL. Oh well, one can dream.

Couldn't be the Lions as AFL already has one

 

[Royalbeagle]

Couldn't be the Lions as AFL already has one

I know - just dreaming of what could have been in a bygone era.

Unfortunately the nationalising of the VFL (as the ‘AFL’) had two objectives -

1) to prop up VFL suburban teams,
2) to irreversibly and permanently promote the profile of the VFL clubs above other 1st tier comps - the WAFL and SANFL.

This is why they only issued licences to new franchise style entities (WCE etc) and rejected others (East Perth, South Fremantle, Norwood etc...).
By doing this they strategically relegated the WAFL and SANFL clubs to second tier status without recourse. A real shame as these clubs had supporters, history, culture, achievement, and performance rivalling and on par with VFL clubs. A very shrewd move by the VFL power elite especially as the VFL’s non-viability was largely owing to their greedy talent grab of WA and SA players. It’s beyond shrewd (extremely arrogant one might say) that they contemporaneously recognise the achievements of VFL suburban clubs’ histories (for example, VFL clubs as past premiers back in the 19th century) and not the histories of WA and SA clubs. The average Victorian probably thinks we didn’t start playing footy until 1987!

Oh well, the AFL is what we’ve got and despite the franchise style structure with all the misused corporate style power exercised upon the game at large (it’s not ‘AFL’ it’s Australian Rules!!), I still watch it despite my angst. And to this end, I’ll back the Eagles to win more flags to equal the number held by the Carlton, Essendon, and Collingwoods of the world. Why? Because they’ve done it against the odds (travelling to and from - you guessed it - Victoria*) and have in recent times gone about it with relative humility.

 

[kranger]

So I posted this in the WAFL board, but it seems relevant here too.

Previously I’ve been opposed to a third Perth AFL team for fear of what it might do to the WAFL sides. But I’ve had a recent change of heart.

Why not optimise the use of Optus Stadium and get another team playing AFL there. You could even close level 5 for a reduced operating cost and it reduces capacity to 40,000 bringing spectators closer together for better atmosphere.

The new AFL team would be based out of Joondalup Arena. Joondalup would cover Perth’s northern suburbs. It would also draw more AFL money into WA and our facilities instead of having AFL money going to support Victorian teams and therefore local Victorian jobs.

Fremantle would cover Perth’s southern suburbs. Eagles would cover Perth’s central suburbs. Which would also align with a north, central and south area used by WAFL teams.

Anyway, how would a third WA AFL team impact the structure of the WAFL.

Fremantle and the new Joondalup AFL side would be given stand alone WAFL teams as their reserves.

Claremont and Subiaco merge.

East Perth and Swan Districts merge.

And then Perth is split into 6 areas based off the 3 AFL areas. The North West, North East, Central West, Central East, South West and South East. Peel Thunder would continue to cover Mandurah separately.

West Perth represent North West and are based out of Joondalup Arena.

The merged Swan Districts/East Perth team are North East and play at Bassendean Oval.

Perth are based out of Lathlain Park and are Central East. They would also take most of Swan Districts current catchment area.

Whilst the merged Claremont/Subiaco team are Central West based at Claremont Oval.

East Fremantle are based out of Cockburn as South East.

With South Fremantle representing the South West from Fremantle Oval.

Then you just need to have some fun with the fixtures, but the Eagles, Dockers and Joondalup WAFL teams would have home games at Optus Stadium as curtain raisers to their relevant AFL team. Since the AFL teams wouldn’t have WAFL reserves or colts or women teams etc, i’m not sure what happens to those teams of the WAFL clubs. Perhaps pull up some local ametuer clubs to play a game.

The AFL clubs would bare the brunt of the costs for maintaining their training fields, giving a bit of a free ride for their co-tenant WAFL club.

Whilst the AFL clubs would have their pre-season games and their Womens teams play their games at the other oval in their area (ie Bassendean, Claremont and Fremantle Ovals), to help those fields develop into nice venues too.

And then the WAFC and state teams move into the WACA, perhaps also with a Friday night WAFL game of the week.

Just thought I would put it out there as an alternative idea, to consolidate WAFL players and costs to grow the strength of the administration.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Previously I’ve been opposed to a third Perth AFL team for fear of what it might do to the WAFL sides. But I’ve had a recent change of heart.

Interesting idea. What happens to Leederville Oval, does it just return to the community?

 

[coniglio_number1]

So I posted this in the WAFL board, but it seems relevant here too.

Previously I’ve been opposed to a third Perth AFL team for fear of what it might do to the WAFL sides. But I’ve had a recent change of heart.

Why not optimise the use of Optus Stadium and get another team playing AFL there. You could even close level 5 for a reduced operating cost and it reduces capacity to 40,000 bringing spectators closer together for better atmosphere.

The new AFL team would be based out of Joondalup Arena. Joondalup would cover Perth’s northern suburbs. It would also draw more AFL money into WA and our facilities instead of having AFL money going to support Victorian teams and therefore local Victorian jobs.

Fremantle would cover Perth’s southern suburbs. Eagles would cover Perth’s central suburbs. Which would also align with a north, central and south area used by WAFL teams.

Anyway, how would a third WA AFL team impact the structure of the WAFL.

Fremantle and the new Joondalup AFL side would be given stand alone WAFL teams as their reserves.

Claremont and Subiaco merge.

East Perth and Swan Districts merge.

And then Perth is split into 6 areas based off the 3 AFL areas. The North West, North East, Central West, Central East, South West and South East. Peel Thunder would continue to cover Mandurah separately.

West Perth represent North West and are based out of Joondalup Arena.

The merged Swan Districts/East Perth team are North East and play at Bassendean Oval.

Perth are based out of Lathlain Park and are Central East. They would also take most of Swan Districts current catchment area.

Whilst the merged Claremont/Subiaco team are Central West based at Claremont Oval.

East Fremantle are based out of Cockburn as South East.

With South Fremantle representing the South West from Fremantle Oval.

Then you just need to have some fun with the fixtures, but the Eagles, Dockers and Joondalup WAFL teams would have home games at Optus Stadium as curtain raisers to their relevant AFL team. Since the AFL teams wouldn’t have WAFL reserves or colts or women teams etc, i’m not sure what happens to those teams of the WAFL clubs. Perhaps pull up some local ametuer clubs to play a game.

The AFL clubs would bare the brunt of the costs for maintaining their training fields, giving a bit of a free ride for their co-tenant WAFL club.

Whilst the AFL clubs would have their pre-season games and their Womens teams play their games at the other oval in their area (ie Bassendean, Claremont and Fremantle Ovals), to help those fields develop into nice venues too.

And then the WAFC and state teams move into the WACA, perhaps also with a Friday night WAFL game of the week.

Just thought I would put it out there as an alternative idea, to consolidate WAFL players and costs to grow the strength of the administration.

You lost me at merge east Perth and swan districts

 

[kranger]

Interesting idea. What happens to Leederville Oval, does it just return to the community?

Yeah probably. Not really many better ideas. Except maybe to move Perth Heat into the City area so make it a baseball field. But still sell off Shark Park.

You lost me at merge east Perth and swan districts

Well you could go with a 12 team WAFL comp. 9 WAFL clubs plus 3 AFL reserves teams.

Subiaco could be another North team, East Perth a central team and Peel could join the southern group. Would certainly ruffle less feathers.

 

[madmug]

You lost me at merge east Perth and swan districts

I may not know WAFL very well, but I do know mergers & changes in clubs & the League. We've had a lot of those in both State league efforts. We've had a few in our state league's two forms over the journey. City-South & East Launceston into South Launceston. The Hobart & North Hobart effort. Also things like the Loss of Sandy Bay & then creating the Southern Cats as some sort of replacement. Lots of other clubs in & out & changes in name & colours.

The thing is, clubs have a 'place' in a community. They have a history. Trying to forcibly uproot, amalgamate, relocate a 'club' is very hard to do. In most cases it causes irreparable damage or is terminal.

Given that the WAFL is all about being an AFL reserves competition & development pathway, perhaps the best way is for the WAFL just to reform with the clubs it needs ( the best geographically, financially, & facility wise). The 'strongest' form the league, the others play in a lower competition. They retain their identity & location in community.

Thats really what should have happened with the VFL teams moving into the AFL. Instead we get a lot of dead wood in Melbourne that really never cut it & relly on the AFL for their very existence.

 

[Kwality]

But still sell off Shark Park.

Who owns it, why sell it?

 

[Kwality]

Yeah probably. Not really many better ideas. Except maybe to move Perth Heat into the City area so make it a baseball field. But still sell off Shark Park.



Well you could go with a 12 team WAFL comp. 9 WAFL clubs plus 3 AFL reserves teams.

Subiaco could be another North team, East Perth a central team and Peel could join the southern group. Would certainly ruffle less feathers.

More teams = less player depth, why do it?

 

[Rob]

Who owns it, why sell it?

It's always been in a s**t of a position, at least since Richmond raceway was demolished anyway. It makes a lot of sense to play both Freo teams out of Freo oval, and with the Freo women's team there actually have a base to lobby for funding to upgrade the venue to something that is actually spectator friendly.
East Fremantle should be training out of somewhere like Bullcreek or Leeming anyway. Like almost every other club their traditional home is nowhere near where their players come from anymore.

 

[Kwality]

It's always been in a s**t of a position, at least since Richmond raceway was demolished anyway. It makes a lot of sense to play both Freo teams out of Freo oval, and with the Freo women's team there actually have a base to lobby for funding to upgrade the venue to something that is actually spectator friendly.
East Fremantle should be training out of somewhere like Bullcreek or Leeming anyway. Like almost every other club their traditional home is nowhere near where their players come from anymore.

sat on the bank down there way back when ... no argument on your why they should no longer play WAFL games, I questioned the sale, reckon its likely owned by the Town of East Freo (how has it survived as local authority, small).

 

[kranger]

With the drive to get 50,000 pledges for a Tasmanian team currently happening, theres a few people saying that a 20th team should occur to prevent a bye.

Whilst i’m fine with only 19 teams, and don’t see the need for a 3rd WA team, I do like the theoretical discussion of where they would be.

Geographically it seems a Joondalup based team works best with the growing suburbs up there, since Fremantle are targetting the southern suburbs, and Eagles are set in the central suburbs.

How when it comes to games, I see two options:

1. Play out of Optus Stadium with Level 5 closed, like what they do with the WAFL grand final, which reduces capacity to under 40,000. That severely reduces the operating costs for game day due to needing less staff, meaning a smaller crowd can be profitable, and it also concentrates the crowd together for better atmosphere.

2. Play out of the redeveloped WACA ground which is supposedly having the playing surface extended so it can take WAFL games again. The capacity will apparently be reduced down to 15,000 as part of the redevelopment, which might be perfect for the new team until they get big enough to move into Optus Stadium with Level 5 closed off.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

1. Play out of Optus Stadium with Level 5 closed, like what they do with the WAFL grand final, which reduces capacity to under 40,000. That severely reduces the operating costs for game day due to needing less staff, meaning a smaller crowd can be profitable, and it also concentrates the crowd together for better atmosphere.

2. Play out of the redeveloped WACA ground which is supposedly having the playing surface extended so it can take WAFL games again. The capacity will apparently be reduced down to 15,000 as part of the redevelopment, which might be perfect for the new team until they get big enough to move into Optus Stadium with Level 5 closed off.

A third team's best selling point, besides geographical identity, would be on tickets. While I've never attempted to buy tickets for a game in WA, I would imagine it's damn near impossible to get a ticket to Eagles games given the size of their membership, and I imagine Fremantle's wouldn't be among the cheaper GA tickets in the league. Which option would provide cheaper tickets between the WACA and Optus minus level 5?

 

[Billy ray]

Other than a category of membership which has super dooper seats on wing, and boxes, all other tickets in stadium are GA ($25 adults and $10 kids).

 

[kranger]

A third team's best selling point, besides geographical identity, would be on tickets. While I've never attempted to buy tickets for a game in WA, I would imagine it's damn near impossible to get a ticket to Eagles games given the size of their membership, and I imagine Fremantle's wouldn't be among the cheaper GA tickets in the league. Which option would provide cheaper tickets between the WACA and Optus minus level 5?

Well thats a hard one to answer, because who know’s how much it really costs?

It seems games at the WACA are always a lot cheaper than at Subiaco Oval and definitely compared to optus Stadium.

However tickets to the WAFL grand final are free for kids, $15 for concessions and $20 for adults, for general admission all all of level 1 and behind the goals on level 3. Which is obviously a lot cheaper than AFL and other blockbuster events. Suggesting tickets could be pretty cheap if the team playing wasn’t trying to get everything they can out of the supporters.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I wonder if they could add more seats at Arena Joondalup and make it an AFL-worthy stadium. I suppose the main problem there is that if they want to attract fans from elsewhere in Perth, t hi those fans are more likely to travel to Burswood than Joondalup.

If it has to be a relatively central stadium, it makes sense for it to be as convenient as possible for a fanbase from Joondalup to get to, meaning direct rail access. Optus Stadium can provide that, the WACA can't.

 

[Kwality]

Geographic identity, WHY?
How relevant is it in any AFL market?
How relevant is it in WA footy, the WAFL?

More teams is a foolish concept based on player depth, so is geographic identity.

 

[The_Reaper]

Geographic identity, WHY?
How relevant is it in any AFL market?
How relevant is it in WA footy, the WAFL?

More teams is a foolish concept based on player depth, so is geographic identity.

Every team in the competition draws majority support from geography.

 

[Kwality]

Every team in the competition draws majority support from geography.

They did, they dont any more. The idea that anyone would change elegance in Perth based on the location of the training facility doesnt grab me.
Living in Melbourne & watching the formation of the A-league Melbourne Victory were first in, hold a dominant position similar to the Eagles, the 2nd side now owned by Man City continues (to me) to be having trouble getting traction, & the next team yet to get off the ground is basing itself in the West, so it will be interesting to see if you are right.

 

[kranger]

Geographic identity, WHY?
How relevant is it in any AFL market?
How relevant is it in WA footy, the WAFL?

Whilst the team wouldn’t have to have a geographic representative name, it does need training facilities somewhere. And the trend for clubs is to co-locate with other community facilities to receive extra government funding and to make the facility more economically viable.

For example Freo’s training facility co-locating with the Cockburn ARC, or West Coast co-locating with Perth Demons and other community facilities for the Vic Park area.

 

[The_Reaper]

They did, they dont any more. The idea that anyone would change elegance in Perth based on the location of the training facility doesnt grab me.
Living in Melbourne & watching the formation of the A-league Melbourne Victory were first in, hold a dominant position similar to the Eagles, the 2nd side now owned by Man City continues (to me) to be having trouble getting traction, & the next team yet to get off the ground is basing itself in the West, so it will be interesting to see if you are right.

I agree.

To have any possibility of support, WA3 would need to represent a particular city/region and play home games there.
Otherwise there is no compelling region for anyone to quit the Eagles for them.

Fremantle works because
1. Fremantle has always had a strong separate identity from Perth. Joondalup etc have never been anything more than suburbs of Perth.
2. 1995 was less than a decade after the Eagles so WAFL allegience were still relevant and Fremantle drew from Easts, Souths and had a strong Claremont connection.

WA3 if based in Perth won't have either of these and if it isn't based in Perth won't have the population.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Interesting discussion,

Being a resident of Merriwa (near Joondy) you're either WC or Freo there is no one else apart from the odd fan who has been around since 'nam and they either follow the pies, bomb outs or blose mostly but they're rare specimens.

So the question begs, who in Perth is going to follow this team? Are you going to stick phat with one of the current two and add this extra team to support?

Curiosity at play.