Expansion 3rd Western Australian club

[Johnny Bananas]

The small Melbourne clubs have never really made inroads into the bug clubs, and that's over decades.

I forgot to add, Hawthorn was once a small club, but now it's bigger than Carlton. More recently, the Western Bulldogs were reportedly one of the few clubs that didn't need to go cap in hand to the AFL to stay afloat during the early part of the year. Both these clubs nearly went out of existence in the 90s, but they're doing pretty well today. So I'd say they have made inroads into the bigger clubs.

 

[Kwality]

Statistics should own a third club as much as anything else.

Current Population

number of WA payers in the AFL ATM

community support for the game

projected population

grass roots number of players or % playing the game as a % of population

average age of the state and projections

average income and disposable income

etc etc

.........

when all those type of questions and many more are asked and answered, i would think a third would be viable and at some point actually needed

Does support for the game demand an extra team
OR
does it hide larger issues e.g too many games in Melbourne (after allowing games sold to anyone waving a one dollar note, (the hawks 5, North 3, Dogs 2, Melbourne, the Saints even the Tiges when covenient - effectively another club to join the Roys & South).

Like SA, NT & Tas, WA put more into the player pool than they take out.

Will another team in Perth work for the game or simply paper over the inequities of the status quo, creating yet another financial basket case for the next 25 years, IF the AFL in its current form is what it is post Covid.

 

[RedV3x]

Another Club will have to eat into the Eagles and Dockers funding

The idea is for AFL clubs to MAKE a profit.

Perth is just not big enough currently and how will 3 clubs share Optus.

Technically perth IS big enough.

how will 3 clubs share Optus.

Two clubs only every week over Friday night, Saturday or Sunday. Simple.

 

[RedV3x]

Does support for the game demand an extra team

Plenty of support but fans probably would like two super teams rather than three equivalent teams.

does it hide larger issues.

No. Talking about expansion is hardly indicative of "larger issues".

Will another team in Perth work for the game.

It would, but it wont be effective as a new team in other locations.

simply paper over the inequities of the status quo,

You seemed to be very confused over two very separate issues - expansion and equalization.

 

[Kwality]

Plenty of support but fans probably would like two super teams rather than three equivalent teams.



No. Talking about expansion is hardly indicative of "larger issues".



It would, but it wont be effective as a new team in other locations.



You seemed to be very confused over two very separate issues - expansion and equalization.

Perhaps I'm simply looking at a 3rd club more widely than you - a Tas team has wider issues than just Tas, & I strongly support that, whilst mindful of the funding of current teams (pre Covid) creating an issue for the game.

 

[Rob]

Will another team in Perth work for the game or simply paper over the inequities of the status quo, creating yet another financial basket case for the next 25 years, IF the AFL in its current form is what it is post Covid.

It probably would be a financial drain, especially if it had to play at Optus - which is a hideously expensive stadium to operate. At least in the short & medium term anyway.

Maybe if someone kicked in funding for a cheap-to-run 20k seater, but I think that's unlikely.

 

[kranger]

It probably would be a financial drain, especially if it had to play at Optus - which is a hideously expensive stadium to operate. At least in the short & medium term anyway.

Maybe if someone kicked in funding for a cheap-to-run 20k seater, but I think that's unlikely.

You could go with the redeveloped WACA.

 

[Kwality]

You could go with the redeveloped WACA.

Cant see spending $millions as the solution.

 

[RedV3x]

a Tas team has wider issues than just Tas, & I strongly support that,

A region without an AFL team has deeper meaning than a second team in a city with only one AFL team which is a lot deeper than a city that has AFL very week and is looking for a 3rd AFL team.

whilst mindful of the funding of current teams (pre Covid) creating an issue for the game.

Whilst mindful that "funding" is only re-distribution of revenue
and also mindful that extra teams create extra media revenue.

 

[jatz14]

By that logic Freo shouldn't have made any inroads on the Eagles, particularly as they geographically limited themselves from the beginning.


How is Perth not big enough? Adelaide has one club per 650 000 people. Melbourne has one club per 550 000 people. Perth has 2 million people currently, with three clubs that'd be one per 667 000 people. The population argument isn't in question. And neither is the money since Perth's GDP per capita is higher than Melbourne's and much higher than Adelaide's.

The only argument is whether a third club will gain popularity, and if so, whether it will eat into the Eagles' base or Freo's. I think it can be done provided it gains a geographic foothold, and it won't hurt Freo badly if that foothold is a good distance away from Fremantle, Cockburn or Mandurah.

As for how three clubs will share Optus Stadium, there are already more than three clubs sharing both the MCG and Docklands. And we have 12 clubs sharing the Gabba and Metricon at the moment.

Freo didn't eat into Eagles support to a great extent. Lots of WA people were hostile to what happened to the WAFL, and blamed the Eagles.

There was also a natural Freo supporter base as their were committed South and East Freo supporters who didn't indetify with Perth at all.

None of this would apply to a 3rd team.

I think the breakdown after a third team came in would be, most support -Eagles. Freo next at about 2 thirds of Eagles support. Next biggest at close to the support Freo gets, would be Other non WA AFL clubs. Last would be club 3.

Would get less than 10% of the footy public on board imop. Perhaps no more than 5%.

And would suck more money out of WA footy, into a forever needing to be propped up third wheel.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Kwality]

A region without an AFL team has deeper meaning than a second team in a city with only one AFL team which is a lot deeper than a city that has AFL very week and is looking for a 3rd AFL team.



Whilst mindful that "funding" is only re-distribution of revenue
and also mindful that extra teams create extra media revenue.

Clearly we have different views on this issue.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Freo didn't eat into Eagles support to a great extent. Lots of WA people were hostile to what happened to the WAFL, and blamed the Eagles.

But still got on the AFL carousel at the next opportunity? Weird, but that's their prerogative.

There was also a natural Freo supporter base as their were committed South and East Freo supporters who didn't indetify with Perth at all.

And nowhere else identifies separately to the rest of Perth?

Would get less than 10% of the footy public on board imop. Perhaps no more than 5%.

And would suck more money out of WA footy, into a forever needing to be propped up third wheel.

What you and others don't account for is that the present footy-going generations aren't the only ones that will ever exist. Every expansion team needs a generation to bed in, and is seeking more to win fans for 10-20 years time rather than immediately. They may very well get less than 10% of the current footy-going public, but that isn't the point, the point is what the landscape will look like in 20 years when Perth is at 3 million people (according to ABS estimates). An extra million people can include a lot of potential fans.

 

[kranger]

And nowhere else identifies separately to the rest of Perth?

Just as an anecdote on that question only.

Historically (such as 1960’s) any town planning documents were titled Perth and Fremantle, recognising them as different towns. At that time Fremantle had its own identity due to being established at the same time as Perth and Guildford as different towns in the Swan River Colony.

However with the expansion of the suburbs, Fremantle is now part of Perth. It didn’t use to be. Guildford never really grew big to have its own identity like Fremantle had, before being swallowed up.

Currently WA planning documents are titled as Perth and Peel. With Peel being the Mandurah area, and just far enough away from the sprawling Perth to be its own identity.

Mandurah only gets included in Perth in census data as part of the ‘Greater Capital City’. Otherwise it is normally a separate identity. This is not the case for anywhere else in Perth.

Perhaps with more suburban growth, the delineation between Perth and Peel will disappear too. I would hope not, as that would be a lot of sprawl.

But everywhere else in Perth, including Ellenbrook, would for the most part just be perceived as the latest addition to the sprawl of Perth.

 

[jatz14]

Just as an anecdote on that question only.

Historically (such as 1960’s) any town planning documents were titled Perth and Fremantle, recognising them as different towns. At that time Fremantle had its own identity due to being established at the same time as Perth and Guildford as different towns in the Swan River Colony.

However with the expansion of the suburbs, Fremantle is now part of Perth. It didn’t use to be. Guildford never really grew big to have its own identity like Fremantle had, before being swallowed up.

Currently WA planning documents are titled as Perth and Peel. With Peel being the Mandurah area, and just far enough away from the sprawling Perth to be its own identity.

Mandurah only gets included in Perth in census data as part of the ‘Greater Capital City’. Otherwise it is normally a separate identity. This is not the case for anywhere else in Perth.

Perhaps with more suburban growth, the delineation between Perth and Peel will disappear too. I would hope not, as that would be a lot of sprawl.

But everywhere else in Perth, including Ellenbrook, would for the most part just be perceived as the latest addition to the sprawl of Perth.

Fremantle is the only part of Perth were people routinely act and think of themselves as being in a place distinct from Perth. Some people in other places may say similar things, but in reality, they are just suburbs, and have been for a long time (Guilford, Midland etc).

I dont think many non WA people realise how obvious it was that Fremantle had to be the second team, and how difficult it is to come up with a scenario where anywhere else works at this point, even long term.

Peel is probably the next, but it isnt big enough, and as it still is separate from Perth, its hard to see enough Perth people joining a Peel team to make it work.

Really long term, you could look at the South West, but its way to small population wise now, and for decades to come.

For mind, a third WA team is either Peel, in 20+ years, or the south West in 30+ years.

 

[RedV3x]

Clearly we have different views on this issue.

I actually cannot follow your thinking most of the time so nothing new.
The logic is very simple.
An AFL in a region without one is a huge boost - obviously.
An AFL city with an AFL team getting a 2nd team allows AFL very week in that city - a big boost.
An AFL city getting a new 3rd AFL team pretty is much just a numbers game - an extra game deriving extra revenue.
An AFL city getting an old 3rd AFL team pretty much a marginal game - no extra game but higher attendance.

Funding is also simple. The AFL generates revenue then spends it.
One person's "propping up" is market equalisation.

 

[Kwality]

I actually cannot follow your thinking most of the time so nothing new.

Spot on.

 

[Rob]

And nowhere else identifies separately to the rest of Perth?

To expand on what kranger said, no. At least not to the extent of Freo, but most importantly Freo has a *football* identity like nowhere else in WA. The Freo derby was always, by far, the biggest fixture in WA footy pre-AFL. That was always where the support was coming from, and it was obvious.

 

[Kwality]

To expand on what kranger said, no. At least not to the extent of Freo, but most importantly Freo has a *football* identity like nowhere else in WA. The Freo derby was always, by far, the biggest fixture in WA footy pre-AFL. That was always where the support was coming from, and it was obvious.

As a family of Subi supporters in the 50s & 60s, we always went to a Derby over the June long weekend.
Footy royalty the Freo teams.
The Freo spirit hasnt transferred to the AFL club.
For Victorians think the Carlton Collingwood clashes of the VFL era.

 

[RedV3x]

most importantly Freo has a *football* identity like nowhere else in WA. The Freo derby was always, by far, the biggest fixture in WA footy pre-AFL. That was always where the support was coming from, and it was obvious.

That's correct, buit when the WAFL was big then the Sunday League and S.E. corridor was big because there was no Armidale WAFL team.
Collectively the Sunday League was large at it's peak, but when the AFL came along it slowly descended to amateur status.
IMO that Sunday League area, virtually devoid of WAFL representation, is an uncommitted region suitable for a 3rd AFL AFL side.
Unfortunately it doesn't have a distinctive name as it reaches from the Swan Valley through Midlands down to Armadale.\
Technically, it's East of Perth but the name 'Perth' is up for grabs.

 

[Les Malone]

As a family of Subi supporters in the 50s & 60s, we always went to a Derby over the June long weekend.
Footy royalty the Freo teams.
The Freo spirit hasnt transferred to the AFL club.
For Victorians think the Carlton Collingwood clashes of the VFL era.

I would probably agree with that, Fremantle for mine is actually the real home of WA footy, but for some reason hasn't assumed that mantle, people desperately want it to happen, but as yet it hasn't happened.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I would probably agree with that, Fremantle for mine is actually the real home of WA footy, but for some reason hasn't assumed that mantle, people desperately want it to happen, but as yet it hasn't happened.

I don't know much about the area, but is it in any way due to them starting off with Claremont personnel rather than South or East Fremantle personnel?

 

[Les Malone]

I don't know much about the area, but is it in any way due to them starting off with Claremont personnel rather than South or East Fremantle personnel?

i don't really know why, Port A is one club but Freo is 2 .... perhaps ?.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

i don't really know why, Port A is one club but Freo is 2 .... perhaps ?.

Port also started in the AFL with largely Port personnel (Cahill, Wanganeen) and continued with Port personnel (Williams, Tredrea). Seems like Fremantle didn't have a strong Fremantle connection until Bell and McManus were leading them. And of course, Fremantle were in the bottom 5 for their first 8 years, whereas Port won a premiership in their first 8 years.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

As a family of Subi supporters in the 50s & 60s, we always went to a Derby over the June long weekend.
Footy royalty the Freo teams.
The Freo spirit hasnt transferred to the AFL club.
For Victorians think the Carlton Collingwood clashes of the VFL era.

How did they go from the WA version of pies vs blues, to the WA version of North?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

How did they go from the WA version of pies vs blues, to the WA version of North?

A long line of incompetence and running away from their own heritage. Going off a sourced statement from Wikipedia, the WAFC deliberately tried to avoid any South or East Fremantle people being involved, because they wanted the club to appeal to people outside Fremantle too. This resulted in them being run by hockey players, politicians and Cameron Schwab, who you might recall had already been mediocre at Richmond. And as mentioned above, the coach and captain were from Claremont.

To this day I don't think they've had a single coach from South or East, and I think Bell is the first administrator to be from one of those clubs. And now they're based in Cockburn and chose to align with Peel Thunder over either South or East. So it seems to me they've never really had a big connection with the Fremantle identity outside of playing at Fremantle Oval. Ironically the Eagles probably had a bigger influence from South and East (John Todd, Worsfold, Mainwaring, Sumich, Matera, Jakovich).