Society/Culture 4 Corners on Vitamins and Supplements

[Chief]

Not true.

OK: perhaps "not ever". But if you're being mobile, eating food and drinking water chances are you are getting most of what you need.

If you're buying supplements based on internet advice or a TV advert you are almost certainly wasting your money.

"If you're feeling this way or that way or lethargic or not as energetic as you'd like, you may be deficient in this vitamin. That's where our bottle of pills can help! So buy our pills and start feeling better!"

This is basically the format of supplement ads. And it is misleading and possibly dangerous if the buyer is opting for this advice instead of actually seeing a doctor.

 

[EagleShore]

Wow. Posting a link to a report on the uselessness of supplements gives us posts about... the "right" supplements to use.
How's this?
If it doesn't have a good scientific basis, it isn't medicine.
Alternative medicine with proven results is medicine.
The average person is not going to need supplements. Ever. If you suspect there is a deficiency, a visit to the doctor will confirm it or disprove it.
Self-medicating with supplements is useless.


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So you are a fan of all or nothing, black and white, polemical arguments, Chief? How absurd.

No offence but there is a scientific basis - ask a doctor about the enzyme HMG CoA Reductase and the effect of inhibiting it on the levels of ubiquinone, which is required for adenosine triphosphate (ATP) synthesis.

While you're at it, you could ask a doctor or biochemist about some of the mechanisms underpinning inflammation - the arachidonic acid cascade, and the relevance of balancing omega 3 with omega 6 intake.

I honestly cannot understand how you could be so ignorant - look around at the size and health of the average Aussie over the age of 40 - it's not good. In fact, a fit and healthy looking middle aged person is a rare sight in my experience. There are reasons for this.

Your reply is sadly fallacious on the basis of a variant of the appeal to authority - that is, simply because the message does not comes from someone who is a doctor, you do not believe it. If I find a doctor who agrees with my statements above, will you all of a sudden believe it?

How about you research the topic instead of replying with a flawed argument?

Any doctor worth his or her salt would prescribe ubiquinol or ubiquinone to all patients who are prescribed statins. They would also recommend a quality (ie non-oxidised) EPA/DHA supplement in those who do not eat oily fish.

This is NOT alternative medicine; this is good standard western medical practice. Just because not all doctors practice good medicine does not mean they are right simply because they are a doctor

OK: perhaps "not ever".

So scientific

But if you're being mobile, eating food and drinking water chances are you are getting most of what you need.

Define "food"...because many of the "foods" people eat are edible things that are made in a laboratory and are devoid of natural nutrients.

Chances are? What the * is that? Try to be more scientific.

If you're buying supplements based on internet advice or a TV advert you are almost certainly wasting your money.

I don't disagree with this...but you lampooned my other posts, yet you now seem to be agreeing that it is not always the case that people who take certain supplements are wasting their money.

"If you're feeling this way or that way or lethargic or not as energetic as you'd like, you may be deficient in this vitamin. That's where our bottle of pills can help! So buy our pills and start feeling better!"

This is basically the format of supplement ads. And it is misleading and possibly dangerous if the buyer is opting for this advice instead of actually seeing a doctor.

Basically? Again, you could be more specific here. Perhaps you could actually agree with my other posts in which I agreed that MOST supplements are a waste of time and money, but not ALL.

I don't see any adverts for coenzyme Q10 to be specifically used by those taking statins...I actually understand it to be the case.

Another remarkably unscientific post in a thread based upon an article that castigates poor science. You're on fire Chief.

 

[RobbieGray17]

Some of the stuff they're trying to sell people is virtually impossible to be deficient in.

 

[Chief]

EagleShore the point is that without a medical reason to take them, they are a waste, and possibly even harmful.

Self medicating on them is pointless. Daily multivitamin tablets are a particular waste.

The fresh food you buy in Coles or Woolies is fine. It is pretty hard to have a particular deficiency if you are getting decent food and drink. Veg, fruit, bread, meat, water, your sugars and salts etc.

Anyone can hang up a shingle as a "nutritionist" or "diet expert" and start telling people that, for instance, grass-fed organic butter in your morning coffee is the optimum diet, and so many do.

As the report talks about, with pharmacists looking to get extra money from stocking rubbish supplements they are gaining from the association with actual, effective medicine.

In the end, unless you're taking supplements on the advice of your doctor you are almost certainly wasting your money and might even be doing yourself harm.

And the only really responsible thing to do when someone on the internet asks for medical advice is to tell them to see their doctor. This was the point of my dismissive post earlier.

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[EagleShore]

EagleShore the point is that without a medical reason to take them, they are a waste, and possibly even harmful.

Self medicating on them is pointless. Daily multivitamin tablets are a particular waste.

The fresh food you buy in Coles or Woolies is fine. It is pretty hard to have a particular deficiency if you are getting decent food and drink. Veg, fruit, bread, meat, water, your sugars and salts etc.

Anyone can hang up a shingle as a "nutritionist" or "diet expert" and start telling people that, for instance, grass-fed organic butter in your morning coffee is the optimum diet, and so many do.

As the report talks about, with pharmacists looking to get extra money from stocking rubbish supplements they are gaining from the association with actual, effective medicine.

In the end, unless you're taking supplements on the advice of your doctor you are almost certainly wasting your money and might even be doing yourself harm.

And the only really responsible thing to do when someone on the internet asks for medical advice is to tell them to see their doctor. This was the point of my dismissive post earlier.

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So next time you see a doctor, biochemist, or pharmacist, ask them about eicosapentanoic acid and docosahexanoic acid along with Q10 (ubiquinone).

Your first dismissive post started with a tenor of incredulity that someone dare discuss the OP in order to assist the thread to move towards a more scientifically correct conclusion. You seem to favour a circle jerk that eschews analysis of the OP, with only posts that agree with every premise in the article in the OP being considered valid.

Either that, or you will only accept one's assertions if that individual is, in this instance, a doctor or a pharmacist. I contend that this is fallacious logic. Instead of looking at facts, you look at the title/profession of the person posting and prejudge the validity of their statements on this basis alone.

I agree that the internet and indeed the world is full of misinformation that can at times be harmful. That is not to say that everything on the internet is wrong, or that anything written on the issue of health that is not written by a doctor is wrong.

Did I mention that I have trained in biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, biostatistics, epidemiology, health economics, health administration, and health promotion among other disciplines?

What then, I ask you, is the point of even having a forum like BigFooty, especially the SR&P forum?

 

[Chief]

So next time you see a doctor, biochemist, or pharmacist, ask them about eicosapentanoic acid and docosahexanoic acid along with Q10 (ubiquinone).

Your first dismissive post started with a tenor of incredulity that someone dare discuss the OP in order to assist the thread to move towards a more scientifically correct conclusion. You seem to favour a circle jerk that eschews analysis of the OP, with only posts that agree with every premise in the article in the OP being considered valid.

Either that, or you will only accept one's assertions if that individual is, in this instance, a doctor or a pharmacist. I contend that this is fallacious logic. Instead of looking at facts, you look at the title/profession of the person posting and prejudge the validity of their statements on this basis alone.

I agree that the internet and indeed the world is full of misinformation that can at times be harmful. That is not to say that everything on the internet is wrong, or that anything written on the issue of health that is not written by a doctor is wrong.

Did I mention that I have trained in biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, biostatistics, epidemiology, health economics, health administration, and health promotion among other disciplines?

What then, I ask you, is the point of even having a forum like BigFooty, especially the SR&P forum?

A) of course I won't waste a doctors appointment or a beer with one of the two doctors I know, asking about that stuff.

B) I once asked a physiology Uni lecturer and researcher a particular medical question- his response was "I dunno mate, I'm a physiologist not a doctor". He's also a triathlete and a vegan, wiry as hell and has no specific diet plan apart from muesli and beer, and I've never seen a supplement in his cupboard that I recall.

C) a family member has a doctorate in the field of tropical diseases and has only recently figured out that chiropractors are pretty much useless.

So, no I'm not impressed that you've studied these things. Specially when you seem to be giving pretty specific advice and talking about grass fed butter which is a pretty specific marker of the faddy LCHF group of diets which are pretty much based on a persistent poor reading of research.

Look, I apologise if I have offended you, and we seem to be on the same page for the most part. Except I wouldn't take dietary/supplement advice from anyone but a medical professional with qualifications - GP, dietitian - and experience, and definitely not on the internet.


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[EagleShore]

A) of course I won't waste a doctors appointment or a beer with one of the two doctors I know, asking about that stuff.

B) I once asked a physiology Uni lecturer and researcher a particular medical question- his response was "I dunno mate, I'm a physiologist not a doctor". He's also a triathlete and a vegan, wiry as hell and has no specific diet plan apart from muesli and beer, and I've never seen a supplement in his cupboard that I recall.

C) a family member has a doctorate in the field of tropical diseases and has only recently figured out that chiropractors are pretty much useless.

So, no I'm not impressed that you've studied these things. Specially when you seem to be giving pretty specific advice and talking about grass fed butter which is a pretty specific marker of the faddy LCHF group of diets which are pretty much based on a persistent poor reading of research.

Look, I apologise if I have offended you, and we seem to be on the same page for the most part. Except I wouldn't take dietary/supplement advice from anyone but a medical professional with qualifications - GP, dietitian - and experience, and definitely not on the internet.


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A vegan physiology lecturer who only consumes muesli and beer, indeed.

Each to their own I suppose. I'm far more comfortable eating whole foods from naturally raised environments than the margarines and high heat extracted rancid vegetable oils many (not all) doctors still recommend.

Doctors can be wrong too in case you were not aware. They are not the bastion of all truth and biochemical fact.

You categorise me incorrectly by the way. I do not adhere to any "fad"...I research, learn, and apply. But I don't expect much more than such a facile analysis from you.

 

[Chief]

A vegan physiology lecturer who only consumes muesli and beer, indeed.

Of course FFS I don't sit and watch what he eats 24/7.

His wife is French, eats soft cheeses by the block and is amused at the irony of marrying a vegan. When they are in France, she says, "I don't know what he eats".








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[The Edukator]

Yes. I'm not a doctor but I have trained in medical science and public health.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/11/supplements-otcs-may-hurt-kidneys/

Tell her that aside from a quality probiotic (if she doesn't eat many fermented foods), ubiquinol (if she doesn't eat heart muscle), and krill oil (if she doesn't eat enough oily fish), she should not really consume any supplements so long as she also eats enough "regular" foods like quality meat, pulses and vegetables (which give enough B vitamins).

There are some other things like spirulina and chlorella which are good for detox (ie. during recovery from drug or alcohol abuse, or other disease states) and cancer patients who are not actively undergoing chemotherapy (high antioxidant foods such as these and green tea can reduce the efficacy of some chemotherapy drugs), but those are specialised supplements and should be researched carefully for the origin and quality (never get Chinese chlorella, for instance).

Whole foods man. Nature packaged bioflavonoids in the pith of citrus to assist with utilisation of ascorbic acid, for example.

Also, if she consumes green smoothies, tell her to rotate her greens and avoid mature spinach, chard, and parsley as they contain very high amounts of oxalic acid, which can lead to kidney stones and deposition of calcium oxalate in other body tissues (which can manifest in vulvodynia and dyspareunia in women). Some people go berserk with green smoothies (I am a big fan of them, but you need to know what you're doing) and end up with kidney stones and other conditions such as an underactive thyroid.

I could go on forever about the types of foods people should eat for optimum health...essentially if you find it in Coles or Woolworths, you shouldn't ******* touch it (the main exceptions of which are some of the deli fish, the grass-fed butter, cold-pressed oils, coconut oil, spices and unrefined salts).

thanks for the advice.

the truth is she eats incredibly well (from what i can tell) and it's 90% organic/biodynamic. probiotics, krill oil, spirulina are all on her shelf. i think she just reads that if you don't have enough 'x vitamin' you have 'y bad things' happen to your body. i will def try pass this info on subtly.

 

[EagleShore]

thanks for the advice.

the truth is she eats incredibly well (from what i can tell) and it's 90% organic/biodynamic. probiotics, krill oil, spirulina are all on her shelf. i think she just reads that if you don't have enough 'x vitamin' you have 'y bad things' happen to your body. i will def try pass this info on subtly.

Sounds like she is doing a lot right already though adherents to the mainstream would say otherwise. If she eats well she doesn't need B group vitamins or any other superfluous stuff. As Chief said, get her to discuss this with her doctor because they have access to more research than the regular Joe and can advise her further.

 

[cartwright]

Some of the stuff they're trying to sell people is virtually impossible to be deficient in.

Example?

 

[The Edukator]

Sounds like she is doing a lot right already though adherents to the mainstream would say otherwise. If she eats well she doesn't need B group vitamins or any other superfluous stuff. As Chief said, get her to discuss this with her doctor because they have access to more research than the regular Joe and can advise her further.

sadly she doesn't believe in doctors, or at least the mainstream ones for the most part.

Dr.Mercola/that website is pretty much gospel for her.

 

[EagleShore]

sadly she doesn't believe in doctors, or at least the mainstream ones for the most part.

Dr.Mercola/that website is pretty much gospel for her.

I don't blame her for the most part - the evidence based medicine that they adhere to is a double-edged sword. Instead of understanding biochemistry and basing decisions upon it, they wait to be told what to prescribe by large scale randomised clinical trials.

This is the standard to which they adhere, and for the most part it is good. But IMO it detracts away from the intellectual capacity of doctors to the point where they become for want of a better term, lackeys for the pharmaceutical companies.

I should stipulate that the field of which I am most critical is that of the prevention and management of chronic diseases. Many medical disciplines such as emergency, obstetrics, palliative care, many surgical disciplines etc. are almost beyond reproach.

It's the lack of "maintaining health and well being" in favour of "take this drug to stop you from having a heart attack even though the absolute risk reduction is minimal" approach that is most concerning.

 

[Belnakor]

For instance, with the dearth of fermented foods in the modern diet, a quality probiotic can be of immense benefit, especially considering how vital good gut health is to one's overall health.

i'd like to see research on this, most stuff i've seen about pro-biotics is they make no difference at all. Every time you goto a chemist they are flogging probiotics so i'm guessing the margin on them is rather steep too.

 

[blackcat]

It pains me to see hawthorn players on the Swisse commercials.

come on, they are oiled up, done some push-ups to get the pump and veins, looks awesome.

that aint me doing #Poe's_law neither.

Chief, he of unmatched wisdom, you really need to fix the coding on the hashtags, underscores, and ownership apostrophes, like... like yesterday

 

[blackcat]

Remember Brendan Fevola and Power Balance? Why I've never felt bad for him losing all his money.

in his defense tho, he had light feet and agility for a big bloke. musta had something to do with the wristbands.

you know those lance armstrong livestrong bands, i hear before they were turfed into a wastefill by nike, an x rated website retailer bought all them, and started selling them as butterfly utensil rings. you gotta bend it into the shape of an 8 or so I hear. they are all the rage with the homos. You can keep it up all night using one. if you lack sufficient diameter you have to twist it into three rings of 0.

not #poe's_law @00 @ @ @ @
#livestrong Livestrong
go Lance. all i wanna do is have some fun.

 

[Belnakor]

frontline did the US version about this time last year and is worth a look. i particularly liked the example of people unwittingly taking steroids which had been sold as vitamins.

unwittingly taking steroids seems a little rich, they are like 10x the price of shitty vitamins!

 

[blackcat]

unwittingly taking steroids seems a little rich, they are like 10x the price of shitty vitamins!

i vouch by my roids.

after serena and i did some horizontal yoga and opened a new foil pack of gauloises bleu, she started benchpressing me to get a proper workout, i once then swore that such indignity would never forecome me again, so I asked her for the recommendations of the roids she was taking

 

[Chief]

come on, they are oiled up, done some push-ups to get the pump and veins, looks awesome.

that aint me doing #Poe's_law neither.

Chief, he of unmatched wisdom, you really need to fix the coding on the hashtags, underscores, and ownership apostrophes, like... like yesterday

Do you even computer, brah?


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[Long Live HFC]

unwittingly taking steroids seems a little rich, they are like 10x the price of shitty vitamins!

somebody didn't clean the machine(s) properly between product runs. so yes, people were unwittingly taking steroids, as their female beards attested to

But by 2013, there was a problem. Dr. Kenneth Spaeth, who specializes in environmental health, is a man those Purity First customers turned to to investigate their symptoms. He arranged for the B-50 vitamins to be tested, and the results were a shock. The capsules were laced with two anabolic steroids.

Joe Kueler, Candice Tripp’s current husband, took it up with MIRA’s owner.

JOE KUELER, Purity First: I called Mike and said pretty much, “What could have happened?” And you know, he was making the male enhancement pills, and he said, “Joe,” he said “if they found any type of steroids in there, the only thing I could possibly think is maybe the mixer was not cleaned enough.”

GILLIAN FINDLAY: By now, Purity First customers had started hiring lawyers and sharing their stories.

CHRIS MEAGHER, Plaintiffs’ Attorney, Meagher & Meagher, White Plains, NY: A change in the voice, change in the sexual organs, hair growth on a young lady was one of our clients, basically developing moustache, beard, the female sexual organs taking on a male configuration. For the men who ingested these things, they developed what’s called gynecomastia. You end up with male breasts.

 

[Chief]

somebody didn't clean the machine(s) properly between product runs. so yes, people were unwittingly taking steroids, as their female beards attested to

Or they didn't clean them at all?

The amounts you'd need to have that effect are pretty high aren't they?


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[Long Live HFC]

Or they didn't clean them at all?

The amounts you'd need to have that effect are pretty high aren't they?

no idea, sorry.

 

[Mofra]

This should clear up any misconceptions about how homeopathy works:

http://www.howdoeshomeopathywork.com/

 

[blackcat]

the steroid contamination is such bs.

utter scatology.

bovine.

hygeine.

knackers

abattoir

#scatology101 n GEDs in scatology = s**t.

#Wim_Delvoye #Cloaca.

 

[Long Live HFC]

the steroid contamination is such bs.

so the tests were incorrect? or Purity First were deliberately adding it to their supplements?