Play Nice 45th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 11: Just Biden His Time

[ShanDog]

Mod Notice

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Further, reference to TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) will no longer be allowed. Much like other tropes of that nature, it serves as a conversational barrier and fall-back point for people to simply sling mud. That's unacceptable.

Thanks.

 

[Crankitup]

I mentioned it enough. Surely I don't need to say it in every post?
Are you unable to understand the context unless I include it each time???


.. he repeatedly talked about how safe and FDA approved chloroquine was... to treat the coronavirus

Firstly he didn't say precisely what you're purporting but in any case your point is redundant. It is legal for them to treat people with Coronavirus using Hydroxychloroquine because it's already FDA approved for other conditions and the FDA allows it to be used in other settings with no restrictions.

 

[CM86]

Firstly he didn't say precisely what you're purporting but in any case your point is redundant. It is legal for them to treat people with Coronavirus using Hydroxychloroquine because it's already FDA approved for other conditions and the FDA allows it to be used in other settings with no restrictions.

What was imprecise?

There would be no point in the FDA existing, if it operated the way you think it does...

 

[Crankitup]

There would be no point in the FDA existing, if it operated the way you think it does...

I repeat - It is legal for them to treat people with Coronavirus using Hydroxychloroquine because it's already FDA approved for other conditions and the FDA allows it to be used for other conditions for which it wasn't originally approved.

 

[CM86]

I repeat - It is legal for them to treat people with Coronavirus using Hydroxychloroquine because it's already FDA approved for other conditions and the FDA allows it to be used in other settings with no restrictions.

Can you link me to where you're getting that information?

Are you saying that a week ago the FDA had said it was OK to treat the coronavirus with cholorquine, because they'd approved it to treat other things like arthritis and malaria?

 

[Crankitup]

Can you link me to where you're getting that information?

Sure ....

Chloroquine has been used to treat malaria for decades, with its more recent reformulation of hydroxychloroquine often prescribed for patients with lupus and arthritis. Because it was approved to treat malaria by the FDA in 1949, it can also readily be prescribed “off label” by physicians for COVID-19.

Link

A doctor has to prescribe it. You can't just walk into a chemist and ask for it. I can see a lot of arthritis sufferers making appointments with their GP to get a script for it for that condition and only intending to use it if they get struck down with Covid-19 but there's a shortage now so I don't think they'll have much chance of getting some.

Then again a lot of arthritis sufferers may already be on it for that condition. It will be interesting to see how many of them are protected from the worst effects of Covid because of that.

 

[CM86]

I suggest you do your research and find it for yourself.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fau...ps-declaration-malaria-drug/story?id=69716324

Looked into it again. Couldn't find anything that seems to oppose the view that Dr Fauci is saying we need to be careful, and Trump saying 'It's not like it's gonna kill anyone'. Or words to that effect.


So can you please let me know what the statement was that you're referring to?

 

[CM86]

Sure ....




Link

That's not the FDA though, is it?
That's the discretion of the physician.

So it can also be prescribed to tests and trials and things, right?


As posted in your article.



Did you read your article?

 

[Crankitup]

So it can also be prescribed to tests and trials and things, right?

Yes.

And if you mean by "and things" a patient's GP prescribing it to treat or manage Covid-19, the answer is again in the affirmative.

However, I'll try and gain some common ground here. I admit that Trump's choice of words at times in that press conference wasn't ideal and I'll also readily admit he's not the most tactful guy in the world, but luckily he surrounded himself in that press conference with the right people to add the correct context to some of what he said. After that context was added he said "We'll see".

After hearing those words I don't think I would've been inspired to reach for the fish pond cleaner to protect me from Covid-19, would you?

 

[dipper86]

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fau...ps-declaration-malaria-drug/story?id=69716324

Looked into it again. Couldn't find anything that seems to oppose the view that Dr Fauci is saying we need to be careful, and Trump saying 'It's not like it's gonna kill anyone'. Or words to that effect.


So can you please let me know what the statement was that you're referring to?

Q I would like Dr. Fauci, if you don’t mind, to follow up on what the President is saying. Should Americans have hope in this drug right now? And, sir, I would like to follow up on Peter’s question here. Could you please issue — address Americans in this country who are scared right now? This is a very valid concern that people have.

DR. FAUCI: No, there really isn’t that much of a difference in many respects with what we’re saying. The President feels optimistic about something — his feeling about it.
What I’m saying is that it might — it might be effective. I’m not saying that it isn’t. It might be effective. But as a scientist, as we’re getting it out there, we need to do it in a way as — while we are making it available for people who might want the hope that it might work, you’re also collecting data that will ultimately show that it is truly effective and safe under the conditions of COVID-19. So there really isn’t difference. It’s just a question of how one feels about it.

Q Is there any reason to believe it’s not safe?

DR. FAUCI: Well, certainly as a drug — any drug, John, has some toxicities. The decades of experience that we have with this drug indicate that the toxicities are rare and they are, in many respects, reversible. What we don’t know is when you put it in the context of another disease, whether it is safe.
Fundamentally, I think it probably is going to be safe, but I like to prove things first. So it really is a question of not a lot of difference. It’s the hope that it will work versus proving that it will work. So I don’t see big differences here.
THE PRESIDENT: I agree. I agree.

 

[CM86]

Yes.

And if you mean by "and things" a patient's GP prescribing it to treat or manage Covid-19, the answer is again in the affirmative.

Yes, but that's not FDA approved.
I'm not sure what your point is with this, sorry.

That's why it needs to be 'off label'.

However, I'll try and gain some common ground here. I admit that Trump's choice of words at times in that press conference wasn't ideal and I'll also readily admit he's not the most tactful guy in the world, but luckily he surrounded himself in that press conference with the right people to add the correct context to some of what he said. After that context was added he said "We'll see".

Thank you, I appreciate that.
Can we agree that lying is a bit worse than being untactful and unideal though?
Dr Fauci stepped up and tried to correct him a couple of times, and Trump would repeat his point with authority over him.


In these dangerous times, where people are scared and angry, shouldn't he be exercising extra caution.

Dr Fauci said that they think it could be very positive, but that they need to be careful and run the right tests and trials.
Trump later said "It's been out there for over 20 years. So it's not a drug you have a huge amount of danger with. It's not like a brand new drug that's been just created that may have an unbelievable monumental effect like kill you."

After hearing those words I don't think I would've been inspired to reach for the fish pond cleaner to protect me from Covid-19, would you?

No, but I'm educated, not in the USA, and don't trust Trump.

Not everyone is as lucky as I am. Which is why we need to be careful.

 

[CM86]

Q I would like Dr. Fauci, if you don’t mind, to follow up on what the President is saying. Should Americans have hope in this drug right now? And, sir, I would like to follow up on Peter’s question here. Could you please issue — address Americans in this country who are scared right now? This is a very valid concern that people have.

DR. FAUCI: No, there really isn’t that much of a difference in many respects with what we’re saying. The President feels optimistic about something — his feeling about it.
What I’m saying is that it might — it might be effective. I’m not saying that it isn’t. It might be effective. But as a scientist, as we’re getting it out there, we need to do it in a way as — while we are making it available for people who might want the hope that it might work, you’re also collecting data that will ultimately show that it is truly effective and safe under the conditions of COVID-19. So there really isn’t difference. It’s just a question of how one feels about it.

Q Is there any reason to believe it’s not safe?

DR. FAUCI: Well, certainly as a drug — any drug, John, has some toxicities. The decades of experience that we have with this drug indicate that the toxicities are rare and they are, in many respects, reversible. What we don’t know is when you put it in the context of another disease, whether it is safe.
Fundamentally, I think it probably is going to be safe, but I like to prove things first. So it really is a question of not a lot of difference. It’s the hope that it will work versus proving that it will work. So I don’t see big differences here.
THE PRESIDENT: I agree. I agree.

Yes I saw that, thank you.


What does that change about what I've said? And how??

 

[woota]

By all means, keep pretending that all other politicians aren't liars, including the democrats you're so fond of. Keep pretending that every other country didn't screw this up badly. Orange man bad, China Joe good.

This is absolutely on point.

Why are you calling him fat? Do you think you'll come across as more persuasive by being more personal and vicious?
Perhaps you're just projecting your own insecurities. I guess it's only natural when your hatred is this strong.

The Donald is not fit for office because he's fat and orange! I mean what do they think this is, a beauty pageant?

 

[Atavistic]

You say that like you think that's an important distinction.
I'm sure you'll pretend it means nothing after I show you he did say it...


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/cor...examine-whether-malaria-drug-can-be-used.html
3:00 in the clip

But this's been used in different forms very powerful drug, in different forms. And it's shown very encouraging, very very encouraging early results.​

And we're going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately.​

And that's where the FDA's been so great. They've gone through the approval processes, It's been approved.​

And they did it, the took it down from many many months to ah, immediate.​

"It's been approved" is not the same as saying it has been approved by the FDA for use in treating coronavirus.

 

[CM86]

"It's been approved" is not the same as saying it has been approved by the FDA for use in treating coronavirus.

Well, the statement in isolation doesn't mean anything.

But as I showed in the quote, he is talking about the encouraging results of choloquine on the coronavirus. And how the FDA's been so great, that they've taken the approval process down from many months to immediate.

What do you think he meant?

 

[CM86]

Within 30 posts of you Les Malone.
I'm going to beat you.

 

[Crankitup]

I'm not sure what your point is with this, sorry.

The point is that we seem to be splitting hairs that don't need to be split. The drug has been approved for medical use for 71 years. It's FDA approved label use is to treat the conditions I already outlined. The FDA approved label use does not extend to Coronavirus which didn't exist at the time the drug was approved. It is legally allowed to be prescribed for Coronavirus though because the FDA allows for "off label" use to treat other conditions.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Thanks. Your appreciation is appreciated.

Trump later said "It's been out there for over 20 years. So it's not a drug you have a huge amount of danger with. It's not like a brand new drug that's been just created that may have an unbelievable monumental effect like kill you."

I don't have a huge problem with what he said. In the right form and rightly prescribed by a GP there is no huge danger and it's very unlikely to kill you.

Unprescribed fish pond cleaner? Not so much.

No, but I'm educated, not in the USA, and don't trust Trump.

Not everyone is as lucky as I am. Which is why we need to be careful.

Agreed.

 

[CM86]

The point is that we seem to be splitting hairs that don't need to be split. The drug has been approved for medical use for 71 years. It's FDA approved label use is to treat the conditions I already outlined. The FDA approved label use does not extend to Coronavirus which didn't exist at the time the drug was approved. It is legally allowed to be prescribed for Coronavirus though because the FDA allows for "off label" use to treat other conditions.

But they don't know if it helps or if it could make the situation worse.

They don't know enough about the coronavirus to know if chloroquine could treat it, cause more serious damage, cause long term issue, or kill people.
It's not their knowledge on chloroquine, it's their lack of knowledge on the coronavirus.

Which is why the FDA hasn't approved it as a treatment for the coronavirus yet.
My point is that Trump said the FDA had approved it, and talked about how safe it was, and how much they knew about it.
And Dr Fauci had to step in and explain that they know plenty about chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, but they don't know enough about the coronavirus to be able to say if it's safe and can help, or not.

I don't have a huge problem with what he said. In the right form and rightly prescribed by a GP there is no huge danger and it's very unlikely to kill you.

But he didn't talk about the right form, the right prescription, the dosage, the dangers. All he did was talk about how safe it is, and how tremendous it is.

You can see the difference between his statements and Dr Fauci's statements. You've pointed out that Dr Fauci corrected, and added context to Trump's statements.
He shouldn't need to do that. Trump had no reason to say any of those things. He did that for himself.

Scared people heard their champion talk about chloroquine, how safe it is, how promising it is, how it's approved to treat the coronavirus etc etc.
They are terrified of the coronavirus. They see this chloroquine stuff in the fish tank cleaner, or whatever it is. (As talked about by fox news, Murdoch media). And they take it.
One's dead now.

There was always going to be problems when chloroquine was mentioned. But I believe Trumps words and actions exacerbated it. And he had no reason to do it other that to stoke his ego.

 

[CM86]

This is ******* annoying.
I should have looked it up rather than just believe the posters claiming how stupid the people were for drinking fish tank cleaner...


This is the chloroquine that they took.





It's just chloroquine. Nothing else.
They literally just took what Trump was telling them was tremendously safe, approved and not going to kill anyone...


So they've watched their President talk about how safe Chloroquine is. How it's approaved by the FDA to treat the coronavirus.
How it's been used to treat all kinds of things for 40 years.

They look on their shelf and see "Chloroquine", "A new drug for treating fish disease".



It was just chloroquine... it was the amount that put them in hospital.

 

[dipper86]

Yes I saw that, thank you.


What does that change about what I've said? And how??

It changes what you said by the fact that 2 people out of 360 million decided to be *******s.....and that's somehow Trump's fault.

 

[Crankitup]

This is ******* annoying.
I should have looked it up rather than just believe the posters claiming how stupid the people were for drinking fish tank cleaner...


This is the chloroquine that they took.

View attachment 848615

View attachment 848617

It's just chloroquine. Nothing else.
They literally just took what Trump was telling them was tremendously safe, approved and not going to kill anyone...


So they've watched their President talk about how safe Chloroquine is. How it's approaved by the FDA to treat the coronavirus.
How it's been used to treat all kinds of things for 40 years.

They look on their shelf and see "Chloroquine", "A new drug for treating fish disease".


It was just chloroquine... it was the amount that put them in hospital.

Hydroxychloroquine is a less toxic derivative of chloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine is the compound that the reporter asked Dr Fauci and Trump about as can be seen in the video from the link below.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/health/coronavirus-chloroquine-trump.html

The compound the couple took is chloroquine phosphate which clears up algae in fish tanks and can treat fish parasites.

This is what the FDA Commisioner says about it.

“The chloroquine phosphate used for treating aquarium fish is not the same as the FDA-approved chloroquine being studied as a possible treatment for COVID19,”. “Do not take any form of chloroquine unless prescribed to you by a health care provider & obtained from legitimate sources.”

New York is trialling both chloroquine and it's less toxic derivative hydroxychloroquine. Both compounds are different to the chloroquine phosphate for fish tanks in those bottle pic's you posted.

 

[CM86]

It appears that despite you being educated and not in the USA and not trusting Trump you can still get things just as confused as the unfortunate couple.


“The chloroquine phosphate used for treating aquarium fish is not the same as the FDA-approved chloroquine being studied as a possible treatment for COVID19,”.

Ok, can you clear up for me the difference between the chloroquine Trump talked about, and the chloroquine used to treat parasites in fish?

Because there doesn't appear to be any other ingredients. Just chloroquine phosphate. Which is the same drug Trump was talking about. As well as Hydroxychloroquine.

 

[CM86]

It changes what you said by the fact that 2 people out of 360 million decided to be *******s.....and that's somehow Trump's fault.

What? It doesn't change what I said at all.

 

[Crankitup]

Ok, can you clear up for me the difference between the chloroquine Trump talked about, and the chloroquine used to treat parasites in fish?

Because there doesn't appear to be any other ingredients. Just chloroquine phosphate. Which is the same drug Trump was talking about. As well as Hydroxychloroquine.

In the video link I posted, the reporter, Trump and Fauci were all just talking about hydroxychloroquine not chloroquine.

But since New York is trialling both, I'll show you the difference between the chloroquine New York is trialling and the chloroquine phosphate in the fish tank cleaning product.

Chloroquine Phosphate is the phosphate salt of chloroquine, a quinoline compound with antimalarial and anti-inflammatory properties.

Chloroquine Phosphate's molecular formula is C₁₈H₃₂ClN₃O₈P₂.

The parent compound chloroquine's formula is C₁₈H₃₂ClN₃.

The difference between them is the phosphate component on the end (O₈P₂) which represents two phosphate molecules.

BTW I hope this clears up the difference because it wasn't easy sorting out the subscript characters.

 

[CM86]

In the video link I posted the reporter, Trump and Fauci were all just talking about hydroxychloroquine not chloroquine.

I don't have access to that site.

Is it different to the video in the link I've posted and quoted multiple times?

Now. A drug called chloroquine, and some people would add to it hydroxie. Hydroxychloroquin.​

So chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine.​

Now this is a common malaria drug. It's also a drug used for strong arthritis. If somebody has pretty serious arthritis. uhm. Also uses this in a somewhat different form.​

But it is known as a malaria drug and it's been around for a long time.​

And it's very powerful.​

But the nice part is it's been around for a long time. So we know that if it if things don't go as planned it's not going to kill anybody. When you go with a brand new drug, you don't know that that's going to happen, you have to see and you have to go long test.​

But this's been used in different forms very powerful drug, in different forms. And it's shown very encouraging, very very encouraging early results.​

And we're going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately.​

And that's where the FDA's been so great. They've gone through the approval processes, It's been approved.​

And they did it, the took it down from many many months to ah, immediate. So we're gonna be able to make that drug available by prescription or states, I spoke with Governor Cuomo about it at great length last night. And he wants to be right on on the he wants to be first on line. And ehh, so I think that's a tremendous, there's tremendous promise based on the results and other tests there's tremendous promise. And normally the FDA would take a long time to approve something like that and it was approved very very quickly and it's now approved.​

Trump directs FDA to examine whether malaria drug can be used for coronavirus

Some scientists have said the anti-malaria drug chloroquine could be a treatment for the coronavirus.

www.cnbc.com

3:00 min mark

Thanks very much for that.
And I do appreciate the time and effort you put into it. It shows you're passionate about it and genuinely trying to engage in good faith.


So I actually don't want to come across as rude here. But you do know that chloroquine phosphate is chloroquine, right?

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/chloroquine#section=U-S-Imports

​

Usually dispensed as the phosphate.​

Lewis, R.J. Sr.; Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary 14th Edition. John Wiley & Sons, Inc. New York, NY 2001., p. 259​

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroquine#Formulations

Formulations​

Chloroquine comes in tablet form as the phosphate, sulfate, and hydrochloride salts. Chloroquine is usually dispensed as the phosphate.​

The phosphate component basically just makes it a salt, for easier consumption.

 

[CM86]

In the video link I posted, the reporter, Trump and Fauci were all just talking about hydroxychloroquine not chloroquine.

But since New York is trialling both, I'll show you the difference between the chloroquine New York is trialling and the chloroquine phosphate in the fish tank cleaning product.

Chloroquine Phosphate is the phosphate salt of chloroquine, a quinoline compound with antimalarial and anti-inflammatory properties.

Chloroquine Phosphate's molecular formula is C₁₈H₃₂ClN₃O₈P₂.

The parent compound chloroquine's formula is C₁₈H₃₂ClN₃.

The difference between them is the phosphate component.

BTW I hope this clears up the difference because it wasn't easy sorting out the subscript characters.