Play Nice 45th President of the United States: Donald Trump - Part 2 (cont in pt. 3)

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herculez09

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This has been proven by multiple polls over time. People don't realise ACA is Obamacare.

They also love individual components when listed out. Again multiple polls have proven this. I don't have time to go looking for, but it's been discussed at length in this thread (or part 1), and is easily googleable. Take a 10 minute break from infowars and go and educate yourself.

The GOP has poisoned the well on obamacare through outright lies.
Obamacare is still not great (better than no healthcare, obviously), but the rest of what you said is kinda funny.

It's a real indictment on our society that people will be so adamantly opposed to a policy like Obamacare, yet when presented with individual elements, they seem to think it's great.

It's effects like these which are the real problems of partisan barracking in politics. People lose their ability to rationally look at what could be a great or terrible policy and will simply kowtow to what they are told to believe by party, or favourite media sources or whoever else.
 

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Bradesmaen

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Dont know, you are telling the story now but not saying anything.

I suspect you and your little mate Palace gun are the local comedy duo.

Dumb and Dumber, which one is which ?


View attachment 393864
You bitch and moan about people on welfare then you supposedly have someone you know rorting the system and you don't report them to the authorities? Smells of shit.
 

Happy Mastenator

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Obamacare is still not great (better than no healthcare, obviously), but the rest of what you said is kinda funny.

It's a real indictment on our society that people will be so adamantly opposed to a policy like Obamacare, yet when presented with individual elements, they seem to think it's great.

It's effects like these which are the real problems of partisan barracking in politics. People lose their ability to rationally look at what could be a great or terrible policy and will simply kowtow to what they are told to believe by party, or favourite media sources or whoever else.
It's definitely sad. They could be having a discussion now about how to tweak obamacare to fix some of the minor issues, but they can't have that discussion because they spent 8 years saying it was of the devil (so to speak). Mental
 

Showbags

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Person A lies about having a bad back and depression to receive $500 of tax dollars a week on the DSP. They spend some of this money purchasing drugs in the untaxable underground economy.

Person B makes 2.5 million a year, pays minimal tax, but employs 50 people, and creates other jobs by building themselves giant mansions etc.

Who is contributing more?
Your analysis assumes that that rich person has created jobs that would not have been there in the first place anyway. The jobs will be there regardless of who the rich person is that is employing them as they are simply servicing a demand that would be there regardless.

This infatuation of the rich as being important contributors to the economy is not born out by the facts. We should be rewarding and lauding genuine innovators who advance our standards of living not putting on a pedestal rich people who just happen to be rich (usually from either inheriting their wealth or being a first mover and creating a monopoly).
 

Happy Mastenator

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You get being better then person a is not an achievement right? Still an incredible amount of low life's who are better then person a.

Also, did person b earn his millions by building a business up from scratch or did he just inherit it from his dad?

Also your last point is ridiculous and very left wing Keynesian economics. If a person has money then it will create immediate jobs whether it is saved and given to a bank to invest in infrastructure or used for frivalous consumption like purchasing mansions. The latter case however is a waste of wealth in the long run as over the top mansions like roads to nowhere are of little value to society.
I'm not sure this is left wing in of itself. If anything it sounds more right wing and Hayekenisan? Unless you're coupling that low taxes with increased government spending, then it's Keynesian, but he seems to be advocating that government spending is cut as well, there's nothing left wing in that.
 

Happy Mastenator

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Person A lies about having a bad back and depression to receive $500 of tax dollars a week on the DSP. They spend some of this money purchasing drugs in the untaxable underground economy.

Person B makes 2.5 million a year, pays minimal tax, but employs 50 people, and creates other jobs by building themselves giant mansions etc.

Who is contributing more?
If person A tries to grapple with complex real world issues and their econmic theories and Person B asks trite questions about those complex economic theories with the most basic of examples, who is contributing more to this thread?
 

Showbags

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Not only do people not like Trumpcare they want to replace Obamacare with universal healthcare not go in the wrong direction as the Republicans are proposing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...919bb6-23a6-11e7-bb9d-8cd6118e1409_story.html

"A recent survey from the Economist/YouGov found that a majority of Americans support “expanding Medicare to provide health insurance to every American.” Similarly, a poll from Morning Consult/Politico showed that a plurality of voters support “a single payer health care system, where all Americans would get their health insurance from one government plan.”

"In both the recent YouGov and Morning Consult polls, for example, the age group most opposed to single payer was the only one that basically already has it: those 65 and up. In other words, single payer for me but not for thee."

"In fact, that recent YouGov poll found that 40 percent of Trump voters support expanding Medicare to all Americans. Among Republicans overall, the share rises to 46 percent."
 

Maggie5

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Person A lies about having a bad back and depression to receive $500 of tax dollars a week on the DSP. They spend some of this money purchasing drugs in the untaxable underground economy.

Person B makes 2.5 million a year, pays minimal tax, but employs 50 people, and creates other jobs by building themselves giant mansions etc.

Who is contributing more?
I asked for evidence.
I have a couple too.
Persons A,B, C all own business, employ up to 10 people in each business. Live the high lifestyle on their credit cards, run business to the ground, places assets in family names, declare bankrupcy.
Employees lose all benefits, tradesmen lose as well as some companies that sold them stock.
All true stories, worked for one, knew of another and a friend is currently experiencing losing wages, super, leave etc.
 

FireKraquora

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Do you provide any evidence for anything you have posted in this thread?
Not sure where that came from. I regularly post studies, and links to articles (not from right wing sources as no one accepts them).

You get being better then person a is not an achievement right? Still an incredible amount of low life's who are better then person a.

Also, did person b earn his millions by building a business up from scratch or did he just inherit it from his dad?

Also your last point is ridiculous and very left wing Keynesian economics. If a person has money then it will create immediate jobs whether it is saved and given to a bank to invest in infrastructure or used for frivalous consumption like purchasing mansions. The latter case however is a waste of wealth in the long run as over the top mansions like roads to nowhere are of little value to society.
If person A tries to grapple with complex real world issues and their econmic theories and Person B asks trite questions about those complex economic theories with the most basic of examples, who is contributing more to this thread?
Your analysis assumes that that rich person has created jobs that would not have been there in the first place anyway. The jobs will be there regardless of who the rich person is that is employing them as they are simply servicing a demand that would be there regardless.

This infatuation of the rich as being important contributors to the economy is not born out by the facts. We should be rewarding and lauding genuine innovators who advance our standards of living not putting on a pedestal rich people who just happen to be rich (usually from either inheriting their wealth or being a first mover and creating a monopoly).
The goal posts are being moved all over the place here. I was responding to an assertion that a rich tax cheat is worse than a poor welfare cheat. Looking at it purely economically, that is false.
 

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Showbags

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Not sure where that came from. I regularly post studies, and links to articles (not from right wing sources as no one accepts them).







The goal posts are being moved all over the place here. I was responding to an assertion that a rich tax cheat is worse than a poor welfare cheat. Looking at it purely economically, that is false.
Not true in the slightest, a tax cheat at the top end costs society a hell of a lot more than a welfare cheat down the bottom.
 

Seeds

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I'm not sure this is left wing in of itself. If anything it sounds more right wing and Hayekenisan? Unless you're coupling that low taxes with increased government spending, then it's Keynesian, but he seems to be advocating that government spending is cut as well, there's nothing left wing in that.
Keynesianism isnt about the source of spending. It's about spending itself. During down times more spending stimulates demand and the economy regardless of where it comes from, whether that be the private second or government sector. The reason why Keynes advocated government spending over tax cuts is because there is no guarantee the extra income from tax cuts would be spent.

Hayek was about growing the economy through increasing supply. Investing in new capital and growing the capital stock. Keynes method was best at driving the economy in the short run but could be at the expense of the economy in the long run if the spending was poorly allocated to consumption or unwise investment such as roads to no where or giant mansions.
 

FireKraquora

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I asked for evidence.
I have a couple too.
Persons A,B, C all own business, employ up to 10 people in each business. Live the high lifestyle on their credit cards, run business to the ground, places assets in family names, declare bankrupcy.
Employees lose all benefits, tradesmen lose as well as some companies that sold them stock.
All true stories, worked for one, knew of another and a friend is currently experiencing losing wages, super, leave etc.
I would agree with you that if a business owner knowingly does what you mentioned then they are worse than a welfare cheat.
 

madmug

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So you agree that there are many cases of welfare fraud?

I want the wealthy to pay their share too, but their tax minimising bothers me less, as they are still net contributors to the economy. They are earning big, spending big, and creating jobs.
Yes the old trickle down 'effect'. Maybe you could show us where this works?
 

madmug

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Person A lies about having a bad back and depression to receive $500 of tax dollars a week on the DSP. They spend some of this money purchasing drugs in the untaxable underground economy.

Person B makes 2.5 million a year, pays minimal tax, but employs 50 people, and creates other jobs by building themselves giant mansions etc.

Who is contributing more?
Is person B selling drugs via 50 young unemployed kids?

Please show me how people lie about a bad back. Dont you think doctors use CT & MRI scans & qualified specialists to do muscle & nerve tests? Or just throw money at people who say they are crook?

Likewise, depression has to be diagnosed & people are given medication. If they need further help, they then see Psychologists & Psychiatrists. You'd have to be pretty good to fool them for very long.

Do you really have any clue? Or just use your bigoted views?.
 

FireKraquora

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Not true in the slightest, a tax cheat at the top end costs society a hell of a lot more than a welfare cheat down the bottom.
I don't understand the maths.

Someone earning 2 million a year, who evades tax to pay only 1% instead of 50 odd, contributes $20k a year directly in taxes, excluding other indirect contributions made (job creation etc).

A welfare cheat on disability COSTS taxpayers $26k a year, excluding other benefits they may be receiving from the govt.

If you could choose to add a million of either to Australia, who do you choose?
 

Maggie5

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I would agree with you that if a business owner knowingly does what you mentioned then they are worse than a welfare cheat.
Not sure where that came from. I regularly post studies, and links to articles (not from right wing sources as no one accepts them).

The goal posts are being moved all over the place here. I was responding to an assertion that a rich tax cheat is worse than a poor welfare cheat. Looking at it purely economically, that is false.
One wasn't even acknowledging he was failing, just wouldn't be told.
But your premise that a welfare cheat is worse (economically) that a rich tax cheat is very wrong when you take into account the many others that are affected by their cheating and rorting the system.
 

FireKraquora

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Is person B selling drugs via 50 young unemployed kids?

Please show me how people lie about a bad back. Dont you think doctors use CT & MRI scans & qualified specialists to do muscle & nerve tests? Or just throw money at people who say they are crook?

Likewise, depression has to be diagnosed & people are given medication. If they need further help, they then see Psychologists & Psychiatrists. You'd have to be pretty good to fool them for very long.

Do you really have any clue? Or just use your bigoted views?.
You overestimate current medicine if you think there are scans to detect all chronic pain disorders.

As for mental health, there are certainly inadequate diagnostics for this. How hard is it to tell a few mental health professionals that you hear voices, or that you are suicidal? Do they have a scan or a blood test to confirm these claims?
 

FireKraquora

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One wasn't even acknowledging he was failing, just wouldn't be told.
But your premise that a welfare cheat is worse (economically) that a rich tax cheat is very wrong when you take into account the many others that are affected by their cheating and rorting the system.
You asked me for evidence. Please provide an example of one of these dodgy entrepreneurs (in b4 "Trump").
 

Ripper

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Everyone silent on the fact that the secret Putin meeting ended up being Fraud News? Extremely sad!
Been busy today , is that what was on the 4:05 today?

Fancy the leader of two nations having a chat without their swamp minders! disgusting!
 

Underarm

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Person A lies about having a bad back and depression to receive $500 of tax dollars a week on the DSP. They spend some of this money purchasing drugs in the untaxable underground economy.

Person B makes 2.5 million a year, pays minimal tax, but employs 50 people, and creates other jobs by building themselves giant mansions etc.

Who is contributing more?
Have you looked into how hard it actually is to get on DSP in the first place? The process is long, and depending on the tests and evidence required can cost hundreds of dollars. They review it every so often as well.

To qualify with just a 'bad back' you need a diagnosis from a medical practitioner, and be able to demonstrate that you can't sit for longer than 10 minutes; or pick something up from a table/desk; or move your arms above your head. Getting it for depression is much harder as well.

here's the link if anyone is interested. https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2011L02716. You need to reach 20 points in the respective table or cumulative of 20 points.
 
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