Player Watch #5: Brandon Ellis

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I watched most of the game but was a bit steaming so I can't really comment on how he went, his numbers are decent though.

But the first couple pages of the autopsy thread and Ellis keeps coming up for 'roast'.

And then it's the same 3 or 4 posters in here saying he played really well. When the main story outside this particular thread seems to be that he wasn't particularly good. Interesting.
Somebody on BF who actually reads Autopsy threads to seek the general opinions of others? Wowee you’re a special BF account holder.
 

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I think KiwiTiger mentioned the opposing wings and their roles...not sure it’s in this thread but pretty much inline with what RT laid out in terms of def trans on the skinny side and covering for others in fwd trans stuff.
Thats only when we have the ball though i’d imagine, making sense of all the systems is a little beyond me and my level to be honest.
Your right we have an option in the vfl with
Kmac, everything else is speculation.
I was alright with Ellis’s game in the context of that match and I do think a point Bartel made in the commentary about different players playing at different intensity contributes to being harder to play against and also having some who only play the percentages is a player who is easier to play with, especially in transition stuff I spose.
I think the thing that will probably contribute to Ellis missing a few games in the future if he stays is he doesn’t offer alot of flexibility.
I thought his first contest was good and I thought he was on, he had a moment or two where he took a couple of steps before he threw himself in but I don’t think he let anyone down.
I thought similar to you Doggie. Also heard the Bartel comment and thought it was relevant too. It's weird we have so many people going hard about Bellis at either ends of the spectrum, when he is clearly middle of the spectrum, a little above at times and a little below at times. I wonder whether they'll ever be happy until they see robots in jumpers doing the same things week in week out ;)
 

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HAHAHAaa with the ball...It's like pass the parcel in the Belfast Pub...only when it gets to Ellis no one wants to get it back off him or give him a lead... :thumbsu: ;) :thumbsu:
Yes, like the time late in the 3rd, when Blues were 20 odd down and attacking on the members wing there was a turnover and the ball was handballed to Ellis (commentators got the player wrong) who laced a beautiful pass to Lynch who kicked the steadier...

Let us down again... :rolleyes:
 

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I thought similar to you Doggie. Also heard the Bartel comment and thought it was relevant too. It's weird we have so many people going hard about Bellis at either ends of the spectrum, when he is clearly middle of the spectrum, a little above at times and a little below at times. I wonder whether they'll ever be happy until they see robots in jumpers doing the same things week in week out ;)
Good to see you’ve got your sense of humour back old friend. Has the weather warmed up in the Sunshine state?
 

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Totally agree, but the point these posters don't notice is, he may not get the possessions or throw himself in every contest, as they expect of him, but his role in negating his direct opposing player. In the past I've seen attacking players used as decoys to negate his run forward.
These dinosaur posters who continue to vilify Ellis regardless how he plays seem to lack the concept that these days players are given certain roles to negate the opposition. They are stuck in the 70s and 80s style ie tenacious tigers etc

These are the type you can never teach and give them mundane assembly jobs...

No pun intended...
yes i even noticed brandon barking out instructions to bolton, stack, baker, chol, ross types on positioning. brandon is amazing how he still racks up his 18-28 even when his main role is defensive and often 40-80 metres off the ball and not to enter heavy traffic to try and win the ball, but to stay on the peripherals and do his role that connects our game plan.
 

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yes i even noticed brandon barking out instructions to bolton, stack, baker, chol, ross types on positioning. brandon is amazing how he still racks up his 18-28 even when his main role is defensive and often 40-80 metres off the ball and not to enter heavy traffic to try and win the ball, but to stay on the peripherals and do his role that connects our game plan.
Is that Brandon or your ol mate Corey?
 

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Good to see you’ve got your sense of humour back old friend. Has the weather warmed up in the Sunshine state?
Haha, not yet, still shivering me timbers - snow on the Granite Belt up here in the Sunshine State. Not as cold as Hawks v GWS though - mad! Easily the coldest winter this decade I'd say. I thought a few xtra kilos would insulate me ;)

I moved away from Melbourne because of weather like this. I wonder if Hodgey is thinking the same thing. That said, we get a couple of very nice hours a day of 19-23, drops pretty quick though when the sun hides behind the forest. Talking of forest, you seeing forest for the trees on Brandon yet? (keeping it relevant). Don't think anyone has you in the same league yet as MP or Ol' Sol just yet, but I see you trying hard old mate:D I am negotiating with the Treasurer for another trip south to see a final and catch up with some other footy feats. We must catch up and talk all things Brandy:tearsofjoy:
 

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TigerImposter

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Haha, not yet, still shivering me timbers - snow on the Granite Belt up here in the Sunshine State. Not as cold as Hawks v GWS though - mad! Easily the coldest winter this decade I'd say. I thought a few xtra kilos would insulate me ;)

I moved away from Melbourne because of weather like this. I wonder if Hodgey is thinking the same thing. That said, we get a couple of very nice hours a day of 19-23, drops pretty quick though when the sun hides behind the forest. Talking of forest, you seeing forest for the trees on Brandon yet? (keeping it relevant). Don't think anyone has you in the same league yet as MP or Ol' Sol just yet, but I see you trying hard old mate:D I am negotiating with the Treasurer for another trip south to see a final and catch up with some other footy feats. We must catch up and talk all things Brandy:tearsofjoy:
I hope the treasurer is not the lovely lady??😃 Your offer will definitely be tested if you’re allowed the fundings. Meanwhile I’ll be thinking of you in those extreme conditions ☃
 

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Totally agree, but the point these posters don't notice is, he may not get the possessions or throw himself in every contest, as they expect of him, but his role in negating his direct opposing player. In the past I've seen attacking players used as decoys to negate his run forward.
These dinosaur posters who continue to vilify Ellis regardless how he plays seem to lack the concept that these days players are given certain roles to negate the opposition. They are stuck in the 70s and 80s style ie tenacious tigers etc

These are the type you can never teach and give them mundane assembly jobs...

No pun intended...
that is the most fanciful post i have ever read on Ellis. so now clubs are using decoys to negate his run fwd. take a harder look and note how often Ellis has anyone remotely close to him. Clubs dont bother about him because they know he has no hurt factor

Oh and i would have thought it a given that all players go when its their turn to go not constantly take short steps thus hardly ever getting there in time to win a hard ball.
Some posters may well be stuck in the 70s 80s but some a re most definately stuck in ga ga land
 

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Totally agree, but the point these posters don't notice is, he may not get the possessions or throw himself in every contest, as they expect of him, but his role in negating his direct opposing player. In the past I've seen attacking players used as decoys to negate his run forward.
These dinosaur posters who continue to vilify Ellis regardless how he plays seem to lack the concept that these days players are given certain roles to negate the opposition. They are stuck in the 70s and 80s style ie tenacious tigers etc

These are the type you can never teach and give them mundane assembly jobs...

No pun intended...
Plenty of new-age dinosaurs on here too ARES. Seeing what they want to see, believing it because they write it so positively. Balance.

He's still in our best 22, just. When or if he's dropped by the FD, then he is not. Simple.

Not enough cap to have 22 Dustin's, can't win premierships with 22 Brandon's. The roles of which you speak can and need to be covered by more than one player, they have to be. Brandon has stuggled to be versatile. Versatility is your friend one day and enemy on any Sunday as a player.

2018 was the season Brandon had to have to get better. It can deliver belief as quickly as sacrifice. He needs to chase both belief and a touch more sacrifice.
 
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mopsy

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It's strange how when Vlastuin Broad Grimes Houli Short Astbury Cotchin Prestia and others stop and prop in our back half then go short and sideways they aren't momentum killers but when Ellis does he is.
really more disingenuity. You know full well people complain about ellis stopping and propping because it is a regular occurence unlike the others you mention. he regularly has opportunities to go fwd but doesnt take it on.People see this all the time and it is recognised by most people nowdays yet you insult people with posts like the one above.
The few occasions he did take it on on sunday something came from it.

I saw 10 minutes of the wce game and in that time Andrew Gaff got the ballin defense took it on with a few bounces dished off got it back had another bounce and delivered a great 40 mtr pass into the corridor. He got back defensively and also created an outlet but instead of dishing off to a team mate sideways took it on unlike Ellis.Gaff will do that type of thing all day his first instinct is to go where Ellis is to stop and go safe .
 

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Probably bc they don’t do it anywhere near the amount of times Ellis does. Fwiw remember when Cotchins game for a 3 year period involved stat padding and little dumb dinky kicks? He got flayed by our own supporters, now he gets less possessions but his impact is immense. Supporters know what they see, Ellis’s numbers read well but he’s not damaging why is this so hard to accept?

Like the old chestnut “but but dusty makes lots of errors and no one dares criticise him”
think about why.
If Ellis went backwards and sideways as much people claim he wouldn't be averaging nearly 300m gained per game. Guys like Cotchin Martin Prestia Lambert Edwards have a greater impact because we see them delivering the ball inside 50 resulting in a score so that sticks in the memory. As I've mentioned a number of times Ellis' role in the side is to get the ball into the hands of these guys so that they can be damaging.

I'm not comparing Ellis to these guys when I mention them in this thread, I'm trying to get across that without a role player like Ellis in the side these guys ability to have the impact they do in taking the game on wouldn't be as great, because they'd be forced to be down where Ellis is in D50 getting the ball off of our defenders instead of running ahead of the play to hurt the opposition.

and to think a couple of plonkers in this thread think Ellis is a better footballer than Vlas..
Don't think I've seen anyone suggest that.

Good post. Cotchin and Delidio both copped it for the little dinky 1 - 2's and sideways stuff. Edwards copped it for years. We don't just save it for Ellis.
Thought he was okay yesterday. He can tackle, always could. He has a good size body to do it and laid some decent tackles yesterday. Carlton had absolutely nothing on the wings yesterday. Young O'Brien and Fisher were hardly sighted, and rarely are, which made his job easier and his job hard to judge.

Reckon is getting to late to experiment with his wing. MacIntosh may come back, but doubt Ellis is going anywhere due to not wanting to upset the apple cart and nobody with anywhere near his experience (except MacIntosh). Has had a solid season so it would be very harsh and perhaps imprudent to drop him now. But next year.....
The thing with Ellis is that his dinky little kicks aren't to pick up the 1-2, what they are for is to get the ball into the hands of our more attacking midfielders. Time and again I've tried to explain that Ellis isn't the attacking outside winger like a Whitfield Gaff Smith are.
Yep, they all do it, mostly they have to otherwise they would become 'turnover merchants' instead of 'momentum killers'. Brandon is more noticeable because he is in more space and his running action accentuates it just a little more. If anything kills him it is his decision making, but that's been improved a fair bit so far this season I would say. Not perfect, but no one can be.
I often wonder if those that call him a momentum killer notice how often his 'momentum killing' moments are usually because he has got the ball in space on the open side of the ground but those up the ground haven't quite got across to provide the next option. So rather than banging the ball on his boot and turning the ball over he does that circle and then spots up a safer shorter option to ensure that we do maintain possession rather than watching the opposition score easily because all our guys were caught out of position, something that happened quite regularly back in 2016.

The ones with the bigger blinkers than racehorses
Ironic post is ironic

Do the lovers actually watch Brando on game day or just look at the stats on there phone? Only positive I see with him in his running ability... bad luck he’s playing footy and not a marathon runner. The sooner he’s out of the side the better.
Do those who call him a momentum killer watch the game live at the ground or are they sitting on the couch? I ask this because as I mentioned above, a lot of times when Brandon does hold up play, a quick look down the ground shows that there was no real viable option to go to hence the slow down rather than turning it over. On TV you don't really see what was on down the ground, instead you just see Brandon running a half circle to buy him some time for an option to present.
People are allowed to have their opinions mate.

I’m currently in two minds about Ellis.

I’ll never call an AFL player soft, but there were some average efforts yesterday.

There was one bit of play where his lack of confidence and hesitation cost us a potential goal and turned the ball over to the blues.

He does some good thing, but he can be so frustrating to watch at times.
100% agree with this

lies lies and stats




contested possessions - Richmond - 2019 - averages


Prestia
Martin
Cotchin
Edwards
Lambert

Ross
Baker
Caddy
Vlastuin
Nankervis
Those stats were where he rated in yesterdays game, the one where 2-3 posters insist that he was no good and had a poor game with minimal impact.

I think KiwiTiger mentioned the opposing wings and their roles...not sure it’s in this thread but pretty much inline with what RT laid out in terms of def trans on the skinny side and covering for others in fwd trans stuff.
Thats only when we have the ball though i’d imagine, making sense of all the systems is a little beyond me and my level to be honest.
Your right we have an option in the vfl with
Kmac, everything else is speculation.
I was alright with Ellis’s game in the context of that match and I do think a point Bartel made in the commentary about different players playing at different intensity contributes to being harder to play against and also having some who only play the percentages is a player who is easier to play with, especially in transition stuff I spose.
I think the thing that will probably contribute to Ellis missing a few games in the future if he stays is he doesn’t offer alot of flexibility.
I thought his first contest was good and I thought he was on, he had a moment or two where he took a couple of steps before he threw himself in but I don’t think he let anyone down.
Well thought out post which pretty much sums up where Ellis is at. At present he is the preferred option in his role, but at the start of the 2020 season he may not be if Naish/Turner/Stack/Bolton can build a tank that allows them to gut run 13-15km week in and week out for 20-25 games a season.
 

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yes i even noticed brandon barking out instructions to bolton, stack, baker, chol, ross types on positioning. brandon is amazing how he still racks up his 18-28 even when his main role is defensive and often 40-80 metres off the ball and not to enter heavy traffic to try and win the ball, but to stay on the peripherals and do his role that connects our game plan.
If you had of told us that you sit in with the match committee so you know Brando's roll and his positioning then you could have saved us all this argy bargy. Brando is amazing after all.
 

Grrr

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If Ellis went backwards and sideways as much people claim he wouldn't be averaging nearly 300m gained per game. Guys like Cotchin Martin Prestia Lambert Edwards have a greater impact because we see them delivering the ball inside 50 resulting in a score so that sticks in the memory. As I've mentioned a number of times Ellis' role in the side is to get the ball into the hands of these guys so that they can be damaging.

I'm not comparing Ellis to these guys when I mention them in this thread, I'm trying to get across that without a role player like Ellis in the side these guys ability to have the impact they do in taking the game on wouldn't be as great, because they'd be forced to be down where Ellis is in D50 getting the ball off of our defenders instead of running ahead of the play to hurt the opposition.


Don't think I've seen anyone suggest that.


The thing with Ellis is that his dinky little kicks aren't to pick up the 1-2, what they are for is to get the ball into the hands of our more attacking midfielders. Time and again I've tried to explain that Ellis isn't the attacking outside winger like a Whitfield Gaff Smith are.

I often wonder if those that call him a momentum killer notice how often his 'momentum killing' moments are usually because he has got the ball in space on the open side of the ground but those up the ground haven't quite got across to provide the next option. So rather than banging the ball on his boot and turning the ball over he does that circle and then spots up a safer shorter option to ensure that we do maintain possession rather than watching the opposition score easily because all our guys were caught out of position, something that happened quite regularly back in 2016.


Ironic post is ironic


Do those who call him a momentum killer watch the game live at the ground or are they sitting on the couch? I ask this because as I mentioned above, a lot of times when Brandon does hold up play, a quick look down the ground shows that there was no real viable option to go to hence the slow down rather than turning it over. On TV you don't really see what was on down the ground, instead you just see Brandon running a half circle to buy him some time for an option to present.

100% agree with this


Those stats were where he rated in yesterdays game, the one where 2-3 posters insist that he was no good and had a poor game with minimal impact.


Well thought out post which pretty much sums up where Ellis is at. At present he is the preferred option in his role, but at the start of the 2020 season he may not be if Naish/Turner/Stack/Bolton can build a tank that allows them to gut run 13-15km week in and week out for 20-25 games a season.
Mate these guys are so far in front of Ellis it isn't funny. He may be outside and he may do his job, and he may even do it adequately, but those guys doing the same job are stars!
 

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If Ellis went backwards and sideways as much people claim he wouldn't be averaging nearly 300m gained per game. Guys like Cotchin Martin Prestia Lambert Edwards have a greater impact because we see them delivering the ball inside 50 resulting in a score so that sticks in the memory. As I've mentioned a number of times Ellis' role in the side is to get the ball into the hands of these guys so that they can be damaging.

I'm not comparing Ellis to these guys when I mention them in this thread, I'm trying to get across that without a role player like Ellis in the side these guys ability to have the impact they do in taking the game on wouldn't be as great, because they'd be forced to be down where Ellis is in D50 getting the ball off of our defenders instead of running ahead of the play to hurt the opposition.


Don't think I've seen anyone suggest that.


The thing with Ellis is that his dinky little kicks aren't to pick up the 1-2, what they are for is to get the ball into the hands of our more attacking midfielders. Time and again I've tried to explain that Ellis isn't the attacking outside winger like a Whitfield Gaff Smith are.

I often wonder if those that call him a momentum killer notice how often his 'momentum killing' moments are usually because he has got the ball in space on the open side of the ground but those up the ground haven't quite got across to provide the next option. So rather than banging the ball on his boot and turning the ball over he does that circle and then spots up a safer shorter option to ensure that we do maintain possession rather than watching the opposition score easily because all our guys were caught out of position, something that happened quite regularly back in 2016.


Ironic post is ironic


Do those who call him a momentum killer watch the game live at the ground or are they sitting on the couch? I ask this because as I mentioned above, a lot of times when Brandon does hold up play, a quick look down the ground shows that there was no real viable option to go to hence the slow down rather than turning it over. On TV you don't really see what was on down the ground, instead you just see Brandon running a half circle to buy him some time for an option to present.

100% agree with this


Those stats were where he rated in yesterdays game, the one where 2-3 posters insist that he was no good and had a poor game with minimal impact.


Well thought out post which pretty much sums up where Ellis is at. At present he is the preferred option in his role, but at the start of the 2020 season he may not be if Naish/Turner/Stack/Bolton can build a tank that allows them to gut run 13-15km week in and week out for 20-25 games a season.
Yes I watch 95% of our home games live at the ground. I don’t buy into the he has nothing to kick to, if you move the ball on quickly the play opens up and players move when you do, unfortunately Brando NEVER has the balls to do this, instead slows it up and takes the conservative option every time.
 

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i thought it a typical Ellis game probably a bit better than normal. In saying that all the usual flaws were on display while he did a few nice things.
I agree with others his impact on games was minimal as it usually is a bit better this time around.

on the stats well once again in isolation they are useless. Will say he was at least credited with tackles and he got a bit of contested ball for once.

Cotchin and Martin have to come into the team next week. The two outs for me not just based on this week are Ellis and Short.Id also be looking at fitting in the bigger bodied McIntosh as well and if we are going to play Pickett or give him a chance to play finals he will need the next two games at the level.

WCE will bring lots of pressure and they bring a lot of size and aggression they will go one v one if they need to.

I have no Doubt Jack Ross can play on the wing in fact id like to see us set up or start the following way

C/ Ross - Martin - Lambert
R/ Nankervis - Cotchin - Prestia.

Interchange and other midfield rotations .Graham, McIntosh, Stack, Edwards, Caddy, Bolton, and possibly Pickett.
See it doesn't hurt to type some positive thoughts about Brandon every now and then.

really more disingenuity. You know full well people complain about ellis stopping and propping because it is a regular occurence unlike the others you mention. he regularly has opportunities to go fwd but doesnt take it on.People see this all the time and it is recognised by most people nowdays yet you insult people with posts like the one above.
The few occasions he did take it on on sunday something came from it.

I saw 10 minutes of the wce game and in that time Andrew Gaff got the ballin defense took it on with a few bounces dished off got it back had another bounce and delivered a great 40 mtr pass into the corridor. He got back defensively and also created an outlet but instead of dishing off to a team mate sideways took it on unlike Ellis.Gaff will do that type of thing all day his first instinct is to go where Ellis is to stop and go safe .
Are you still WA based and watching games on TV? Because that would explain the thought process behind saying Ellis constantly fails to take the game on.

As for the Gaff comparisons, as mentioned and ignored by you a number of times(Not sure why I'm bothering explaining it again as you're just going to ignore it again), Ellis' role isn't to play as an offensive weapon like the Gaff/Whitfield type of wingers. Ellis' role is to get the ball into the hands of our attacking options first and foremost and let them take the game on. The other thing with Ellis' disposals is they aren't the 1-2 give and go type of disposal like Gaff had above. They are give and then let our attacking midfielders go while he provides coverage behind them in case there is a turnover.
 

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If Ellis went backwards and sideways as much people claim he wouldn't be averaging nearly 300m gained per game. Guys like Cotchin Martin Prestia Lambert Edwards have a greater impact because we see them delivering the ball inside 50 resulting in a score so that sticks in the memory. As I've mentioned a number of times Ellis' role in the side is to get the ball into the hands of these guys so that they can be damaging.

I'm not comparing Ellis to these guys when I mention them in this thread, I'm trying to get across that without a role player like Ellis in the side these guys ability to have the impact they do in taking the game on wouldn't be as great, because they'd be forced to be down where Ellis is in D50 getting the ball off of our defenders instead of running ahead of the play to hurt the opposition.


Don't think I've seen anyone suggest that.


The thing with Ellis is that his dinky little kicks aren't to pick up the 1-2, what they are for is to get the ball into the hands of our more attacking midfielders. Time and again I've tried to explain that Ellis isn't the attacking outside winger like a Whitfield Gaff Smith are.

I often wonder if those that call him a momentum killer notice how often his 'momentum killing' moments are usually because he has got the ball in space on the open side of the ground but those up the ground haven't quite got across to provide the next option. So rather than banging the ball on his boot and turning the ball over he does that circle and then spots up a safer shorter option to ensure that we do maintain possession rather than watching the opposition score easily because all our guys were caught out of position, something that happened quite regularly back in 2016.


Ironic post is ironic


Do those who call him a momentum killer watch the game live at the ground or are they sitting on the couch? I ask this because as I mentioned above, a lot of times when Brandon does hold up play, a quick look down the ground shows that there was no real viable option to go to hence the slow down rather than turning it over. On TV you don't really see what was on down the ground, instead you just see Brandon running a half circle to buy him some time for an option to present.

100% agree with this


Those stats were where he rated in yesterdays game, the one where 2-3 posters insist that he was no good and had a poor game with minimal impact.


Well thought out post which pretty much sums up where Ellis is at. At present he is the preferred option in his role, but at the start of the 2020 season he may not be if Naish/Turner/Stack/Bolton can build a tank that allows them to gut run 13-15km week in and week out for 20-25 games a season.
Thank you


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_RT_

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Mate these guys are so far in front of Ellis it isn't funny. He may be outside and he may do his job, and he may even do it adequately, but those guys doing the same job are stars!
They don't do the same job, Gaff/Whitfield/Smith are attacking wingers whose job is to take the game on. In our side we have better attacking options to use.
Yes I watch 95% of our home games live at the ground. I don’t buy into the he has nothing to kick to, if you move the ball on quickly the play opens up and players move when you do, unfortunately Brando NEVER has the balls to do this, instead slows it up and takes the conservative option every time.
All good, Sol.

Not saying it happens all the time, but more often than not when I see it happen a look up the ground, we're usually in an outnumbered situation so it's preferable for him to take the conservative option rather than turning it over and watching it sail back over his head.
 

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Yes I watch 95% of our home games live at the ground. I don’t buy into the he has nothing to kick to, if you move the ball on quickly the play opens up and players move when you do, unfortunately Brando NEVER has the balls to do this, instead slows it up and takes the conservative option EVERY time.
Why do some people use so many of what I call 'complete descriptives' as fact? It's rarely all or nothing. Footy is not like that. Sorry Sol, not picking on you specifically, but so often we have to read these UNDERLINED statements, and for me at least, it debases the claim straight away. As you were....:(
 

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They don't do the same job, Gaff/Whitfield/Smith are attacking wingers whose job is to take the game on. In our side we have better attacking options to use.

All good, Sol.

Not saying it happens all the time, but more often than not when I see it happen a look up the ground, we're usually in an outnumbered situation so it's preferable for him to take the conservative option rather than turning it over and watching it sail back over his head.
Sorry misread your post. But it seems to me you are making excuses for his lack of attack. All players whether they be attacking backmen or defensive wingers should also stream forward when given the chance. He can do it, and when he does he can kick a good goal. He hit up Lynch on the weekend nicely. I just wish he would do it more often, transition. Broad, Houli and Vlaustin do it from the back half all the time.
There was a comment earlier that Ellis took the defensive roll/side and MacIntosh the fat side. But when the ball is switched, Ellis has the fat side. He could exploit that more, especially given his running ability as he is a better player when he does it.
 

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