Player Watch #5: Brandon Ellis

Phar Ace

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Richmond Match Statistics V Western Bulldogs (Sorted by Disposals)

Coach: Damien Hardwick



Player

CP

UP

ED

DE%

CM

GA

MI5

1%

BO

CCL

SCL

SI

MG

TO

ITC

T5

TOG%

D Martin

12

16

19

76

0

2

1

0

0

1

2

4

444

7

1

0

73

K Lambert

8

15

12

52.2

0

1

1

0

0

0

2

9

362

4

4

1

87

D Prestia

8

15

18

81.8

0

0

0

0

0

2

3

6

241

2

2

0

84

N Vlastuin

7

12

17

81

1

0

0

4

0

0

0

2

243

2

10

0

80

S Stack

7

12

17

89.5

1

2

0

2

1

0

0

4

278

1

6

0

80

B Houli

4

12

16

88.9

0

0

0

1

5

0

0

1

399

3

4

0

87

L Baker

4

15

12

66.7

0

0

3

1

0

0

0

5

284

3

1

1

79

S Bolton

5

11

14

82.4

0

0

0

0

0

0

1

4

372

4

1

0

81

T Nankervis

7

9

7

46.7

0

0

0

1

0

2

1

3

196

2

2

0

68

C Menadue

4

10

15

100

0

0

0

1

0

0

0

2

237

3

6

0

80

J Higgins

10

5

10

66.7

1

0

0

1

0

0

2

2

74

4

3

2

74

J Ross

5

11

12

80

0

1

0

2

0

3

1

2

205

2

1

0

83

B Ellis

4

10

14

100

0

1

0

0

0

0

0

2

-24

0

3

0

91

S Edwards

6

7

7

58.3

0

0

0

1

1

2

0

2

279

3

2

0

78

K Mcintosh

6

7

8

66.7

2

0

1

4

0

0

1

2

326

4

4

1

82

J Caddy

3

8

7

63.6

0

0

2

1

0

0

0

4

187

1

2

1

90

J Castagna

8

3

5

45.5

0

0

1

0

0

0

1

2

115

4

2

0

87

N Broad

3

8

4

36.4

0

0

1

8

0

0

0

0

163

3

3

0

82

N Balta

5

6

8

72.7

1

0

0

3

2

0

2

3

297

5

3

0

82

D Grimes

3

5

7

70

1

0

0

2

1

0

0

1

93

2

4

0

94

D Rioli

3

6

6

75

1

0

1

0

2

0

0

2

170

1

1

0

66

T Lynch

4

3

3

60

1

0

1

1

0

0

0

3

86

2

2

0

92



Being a bit of a fan of Brandon (but also a realist) I was interested to see what he contributed to the team on the shocking showing against the Bulldogs. I was intrigued by the fact he achieved a negative metres gained and asked on here if anyone knew how it was determined. Silence at first, then a couple comments about it being all ******** etc (all really helpful stuff from sunflowers and so-called haters) At least TI delivered up an article on it.

Now I'll be honest, the content of the various explanations varied a bit. I have repeatedly said a single statistic can be meaningless without looking further. You use the statistic as a clue to a fuller picture, not treat it as a full picture in itself. So rather than just say "minus 24m, how bad is that", I'll try and look further.

He had a big night with 91% game time. NO TACKLES, but also No Turnovers. Created nothing new and lost nothing we had - neutral result. But made 3 intercepts. The whole team's turnovers were pretty ordinary, a certain reigning Brownlow Medalist had the most. The teams inside 50 tackles were low.

No point comparing Brandon to say Nankervis - completely different roles so I looked a for a group of like-role players and settled on Macca, Menadue, Stack, Higgins, Edwards, Bolton. The rest are more pure mids, fwds or backs. These are the guys you'd want to call his cohort, at least I think so. People might want to add one or two, lose one or two maybe, you can look at the table above if you really want to, but it's my random call. Only Higgo and Macca registered tackles in 50! All the other five could not lay a glove inside 50. The ball probably came back too quick, but they were ineffective near the arc. Intercepts were the lowest for Bolton and Edwards, with Ellis on 3 with Higgo. Menadue had 6! Turnovers for this cohort, Ellis led the pack with 0. Worst was just 4. Outside the cohort Dusty had 7. How did he escape criticism?

Score Involvements involves a work rate, and all of Ellis, Mena, Macca, Sheds and Higgo had just 2. This was low end of team stuff. Newbies Stack and Bolton had 4ea. This season Ellis has gone 4,3,5,4,6,2,8. I've left Clearances alone, these boys are outsiders. You'd like then to get the odd one - but nup, though Shed had 2. Goal Assists were thin on the ground for the team becuase so were goals, and Marks in 50 were too, though this cohorts goal - the odd one or two would be handy as they push forward.

Metres Gained using kicks & handballs
Ellis 4 & 10 K & HB 14 Effective -24m Gained
Mena 4 & 10 K & HB 14 Effective 237m Gained
Stack 7 & 12 K & HB 17 Effective 278m Gained
Bolton 5 & 11 K & HB 14 Effective 372m Gained
Higgo 10 & 5 K & HB 10 Effective 74m Gained
Shed 6 & 7 K & HB 7 Effective 279m Gained
Macca 6 & 7 K & HB 8 Effective 328m Gained

My goal was to put that unusual metres gained figure in perspective and not just focus on it alone. This season, up to that game in Round 7, there had been a possible 2772 player games (22 players x 18 teams x 7 Rounds). Only Ellis and Ben Long had recorded a minus 24/25. There was a handful of -2 and -3's in total, usually injury related. Less than 10% record an under 100m gained. Most are somewhere in the 100 to 300 range. You could call that the high and low of average. 10-20% (at a guess) are in the 300-600 range, often good to outstanding rated games.

Ellis was no Robinson Crusoe in this game in overall stats. However he alone was not the reason for the loss. He had mates and that's plain to tell.

It's one game. A stinker. I asked about the metres gains because frankly a minus 24m stood out like a sore thumb! A red flag if you will. Statistically significant! He had some mates, but he was right down there, WAY DOWN THERE in uncharted territory this year. He's had two really good ones too. Right up there, and often at the top end of average.

For me, it seems to be when the game is on the line a bit. I think the symptom could be he goes safe, goes into his shell. You can directly compare his game to Menadue that night against the Bulldogs. I think that's fair. Menadue still made average metres. All of his cohort did (except Higgo, who seems in a bit of decline patch maybe).

I know one thing from this -24 doesn't help win. The haters can hate, and the sunflowers can bloom in the rarefied air of their own glass house - I don't care. (Frankly I think the terms used are stupid). We all support one way or another. But Ellis was not good for winning against the Bulldogs, Higgo and Shed were as bad in his cohort. Menadue was serviceable, Stack, Bolton and Macca still took the game on and were much better.

Ellis's games so far on metres gained are:
Coll - 285m
GWS - 299m
Port- 433m
Syd - 383m
Melb - 266m
WB - (24m)
Freo - 236m
 
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Bazzar

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I asked about the metres gains because frankly a minus 24m stood out like a sore thumb! A red flag if you will. Statistically significant!
  

                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
                  
Its very basic. "Raw meters gained is the basic stat guideline that CH Data give to the public. It's basically as meaningless as BMI or total cholesterol for an individual, it doesn't explain in any detail the actual effectiveness of the possessions.

When CH Data record meters gained they record it broken down in different categories, as in
Player numbers, as the raw Metres Gained number (What you are referring to)
Metres Gained at chain level to measure the effectiveness of ball movement. eg. Defensive 50 stoppage chains:
Metres gained minus reply metres (what the opposition gained after a turnover).
Effective Metres Gained (effective disposals only)
Assisted Metres Gained (metres gained by teammates after you get the ball to them uncontested)
Net Metres Gained (Metres Gained + Assisted Metres Gained).
So without the actual club stats (CH Data doesn't release the above except raw meters gained to the public, only the clubs) we have no idea how the -24 was rated, it could have been as effective as Grimes +93, only the club knows.
 
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Grrr

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You forgot Mav Weller. 😉
You may well jest but he had a good game on the weekend for his first game in a while. He will be played at some stage. Reckon we should hold our fire a bit until we get a better look (rather than just rd.1) because he is quick, tough and a good kick. Will be hungry too.
 

JAKLAUGHING

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You may well jest but he had a good game on the weekend for his first game in a while. He will be played at some stage. Reckon we should hold our fire a bit until we get a better look (rather than just rd.1) because he is quick, tough and a good kick. Will be hungry too.
I agree...
 

jc12

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OK, you back to just that again. Good luck arguing the rest of the year out with people who you think are calling Brandon names. What did you call it - distasteful. Yeah, right!
didnt i mention the reason i was back to that? it was my my original point and i wont stray from it. the man is a whipping boy of the tallest order, nek minnut he wins brownlow or something and you guys cheer even louder as it is guaranteed 2 first rounders. but tbh i dont really mind what you guys think, you will have players you love or hate, its normal. when i made my first comment on here i thought i would mentioned how amazed i am at how big of a whipping boy he is , that was my intention and that was my view. i respect your view and your entitled to it, and so to me
 

jc12

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You were claiming him as the whipping boy, I mentioned not without reason and provided what I thought was an example.
good for you, but your previous comment asking why i commented made no sense seeing as you spoke to me first, obviously im gonna respond back to you. you dont rate brando well, good for you. i rate him and i believe he has a role in our best 22, as proved so far this year
 

Grrr

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good for you, but your previous comment asking why i commented made no sense seeing as you spoke to me first, obviously im gonna respond back to you. you dont rate brando well, good for you. i rate him and i believe he has a role in our best 22, as proved so far this year
But you don't really read posts. I have said any number of times on this thread that Brando is a good player, you have to be to play 160 games. But he has flaws that undo some of his good work that makes him a whipping boys. This is common on BF, some players polarise opinions, and normally these players end up either not good enough or not getting games. I can't think of many that go on and get better. Grigg maybe. Castagna maybe. Prestia copped it early but was given leeway due to being new/injured. Edwards made a few eat cake. Butler and Graham currently. Posters just don't make it up.
 

Cdog71

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I don’t think Brando is particularly Offensive of Defensive he plays in that transition phase and tries to end up in a dangerous spot or support a stoppage.
He probably does help out for out mids and backs from time to time covering for them but he doesn’t really ever go shoulder to shoulder and thats how we play him.
It’s going to be interesting this week, they may get Smith back who’s coming off an injury but he can be really damaging and on the other wing is Henderson who’s probably leading their BnF who doesn’t hardly defend, tackle or get his own ball.
I don’t think it’ll be one on one, but it’ll be interesting to see how we play our wings against how Clarko plays his.
 

TigerImposter

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You may well jest but he had a good game on the weekend for his first game in a while. He will be played at some stage. Reckon we should hold our fire a bit until we get a better look (rather than just rd.1) because he is quick, tough and a good kick. Will be hungry too.
He played against the Dolphins. Cmon Grrr give me a break.
 

Grrr

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He played against the Dolphins. Cmon Grrr give me a break.
Probably shouldn't be in this thread but he played 1 game which he didn't finish against the blues and a few JLT's, not much to judge him on coming to a new club. He has some good attributes, and has played some good football over the years. With all our injuries he will get a game sooner than later, not that I want him in, rather stick with our youth, but in reality they brought him to the club so they will want to see if he is up to it.
 
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He was better than the captain, haven't seen anyone bag him or his game
The captain was about our second worse and yes he should have done better, but has been prone to bad games throughout his career.
I don’t think Brando is particularly Offensive of Defensive he plays in that transition phase and tries to end up in a dangerous spot or support a stoppage.
He probably does help out for out mids and backs from time to time covering for them but he doesn’t really ever go shoulder to shoulder and thats how we play him.
It’s going to be interesting this week, they may get Smith back who’s coming off an injury but he can be really damaging and on the other wing is Henderson who’s probably leading their BnF who doesn’t hardly defend, tackle or get his own ball.
I don’t think it’ll be one on one, but it’ll be interesting to see how we play our wings against how Clarko plays his.

Said this before and will again, I reckon Brando - and you kinda allude to it - is as consistent a player we have, in that he rarely plays a standout game, but his worst is generally better than half the team. He's a downhill skier, but I don't view his performance at varying that much week to week .... albeit -24 metres is a stinker no matter how anyone tries to dress it up. If Dangerfield or Fyfe went -24, or the bloke on the rookie list at Gold Coast went -24, Bazaar would be at pains to point out how poor her was. Was there worse players than Ellis that night - yes, and Edwards was one, but s*** don't defend anj insipid effort by Ellis, who went nowhere but backwards that night. Luckily he redeemed himself v Freo and it's up to him to double up v the Hawks, but I won't be holding my breath judging on what I've seen in the past.
 

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Phar Ace

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didnt i mention the reason i was back to that? it was my my original point and i wont stray from it. the man is a whipping boy of the tallest order, nek minnut he wins brownlow or something and you guys cheer even louder as it is guaranteed 2 first rounders. but tbh i dont really mind what you guys think, you will have players you love or hate, its normal. when i made my first comment on here i thought i would mentioned how amazed i am at how big of a whipping boy he is , that was my intention and that was my view. i respect your view and your entitled to it, and so to me
As I said, we are not far apart on Brando, you just don't like people talking about Brando in ways you don't want to talk about. You have a narrow narrative like the man with a finger in both ears going "Lalalalalalala" :grinning:

Probably the worst bit is you ignore what people say, like it went out there but was never uttered, and you repeatedly suggest they said or have an attitude of something else. No more! You can whistle in the wind my friend!
 
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jc12

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But you don't really read posts. I have said any number of times on this thread that Brando is a good player, you have to be to play 160 games. But he has flaws that undo some of his good work that makes him a whipping boys. This is common on BF, some players polarise opinions, and normally these players end up either not good enough or not getting games. I can't think of many that go on and get better. Grigg maybe. Castagna maybe. Prestia copped it early but was given leeway due to being new/injured. Edwards made a few eat cake. Butler and Graham currently. Posters just don't make it up.
i dont have time to read all your posts on here mate, just the ones that you send to me. anyway my point is, he is such a big whipping boy that even when he plays good he gets slaughtered. so far he has had a good career, premiership player and some good years for us. thus dont understand how he is such a big whipping boy, i mean he is not perfect but id think seeing as we were so success starved that we would at least be more supportive of our premiership players, rather than pinpoint one error in a game where he played really well. understand?
 

jc12

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As I said, we are not far apart on Brando, you just don't like people talking about Brando in ways you don't want to talk about. You have a narrow narrative like the man with two fingers in his going "Lalalalalalala" :grinning:

Probably the worst bit is you ignore what people say like it went out there and was never uttered, suggesting they said or have an attitude of something else. No more! You can whistle in the wind my friend!
lol think you are doing what you are saying. im not ignoring what you are saying. i even said i agree with you regarding that. all i did was talk about my main pointbecause.... it is my main point. surprising right. funny how sticking up for a richmond player has you riled up so much. im happy with the way brando is going at the moment and im confident richmond will make the right call
 
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ahhhhhh...that's the spot......more please..Bellis

Love it when someone trawls all day to find a career highlight to demonstrate a players ability/hardness.
I'm sure if there was even two minutes worth of highlights like this, none of us would be having a discussion ;)
 
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Love it when someone trawls all day to find a career highlight to demonstrate a players ability/hardness.
I'm sure if there was even two minutes worth of highlights like this, none of us would be having a discussion ;)
it's prolly 10 times worse pre the digital age...when some coach might say...you're f*king soft son...we're gonna have
to let you go....when there wasn't any video evidence to back things up to argue things either way...stats would have been just someone's "opinion" open to interpretations...
 

Coxy_

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Love it when someone trawls all day to find a career highlight to demonstrate a players ability/hardness.
I'm sure if there was even two minutes worth of highlights like this, none of us would be having a discussion ;)
'Trawls all day to find a career highlight'

This is from the weekend ya ******* goblin :$
 
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Love it when someone trawls all day to find a career highlight to demonstrate a players ability/hardness.
I'm sure if there was even two minutes worth of highlights like this, none of us would be having a discussion ;)
Most here would know I have been strongly in the negative camp for a long time on Ellis. He had a very good game last week though and that wasn't his only hard at it effort from the game. He did make a cringe worthy attempt in the last and one broken tackle though which shouldn't have happened.When that tackle happened I was glad it was him. Of course needs to back it up this week. Hopefully getting inspired by the kids. There's hope for him.
 
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