Player Watch #5 Isaac Heeney - 100 games!

Number37

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Please point to a game where Heeney has been a midfielder for almost all the game? Please point to a game where Mills has been a midfielder for almost the entire game?
Was it Hawks last year where he kept butchering the ball?
Played a lot of midfield minutes that game.
 

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Punts

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From memory 1 game where he went head to head with T Miller and got a touch up and was lazy defensively.

I rate Heeney by the way but not sure he will reach the heights of the best mid in the comp or Fyfe like that some have said

He isn’t an A grader yet but that’s my opinion
 

BloodySwan

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Uh you don’t think you can see what sort of player Heeney will be? He already has everything required, he just needs consistency and the ability to dominate games. If he achieves those, he is the most complete player in the game. But it’s very difficult to achieve consistency when your position is changing on a weekly basis, and it’s very hard to dominate games when you’re being kept away from the coalface. I would say Heeney has been brilliant, his coach has just squandered him.
He's had 2 positions, forward flank and midfield. He's had some star games in the forward flank and we've recently moved him into the midfield where he is yet to dominate. Based off of that he is a handy forward, but not a good midfielder.

I'm not saying he cannot improve but the usual expectation is he should already be there come game 50. Based off of his previous games he will never be a star of the game but is a consistent team player who will show moments of brilliance.
 

caesar88

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He's had 2 positions, forward flank and midfield. He's had some star games in the forward flank and we've recently moved him into the midfield where he is yet to dominate. Based off of that he is a handy forward, but not a good midfielder.

I'm not saying he cannot improve but the usual expectation is he should already be there come game 50. Based off of his previous games he will never be a star of the game but is a consistent team player who will show moments of brilliance.
No one will dominate if you are given half a match at most to master your role. Heeney is exceptionally talented and IMO Horse has exploited that and made Heeney the designated pawn who just fixes up any area where we are struggling. That's the defensive mentality again.. using one of your most gifted players to plug holes instead of being the player to tear opposition teams new ones...
 

MC Bad Genius

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Can we have a rule on this board that if you argue the SAME point to the SAME poster three times in a row you get banned for a week for being a complete and utter plank? You're not going to convince everyone to agree with you on everything. Just acknowledge that you don't agree and move on.

That being said, I kinda agree with both camps. I don't think Heeney has come close to fulfilling his potential (yet!), but I also think he should've been blooded into the midfield a lot more than he has been.

Whatever your opinion, the guy is an excitement machine with all the attributes to be a genuine star of the competition.
 

Kirkswan

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Is Lloyd capable of playing a role that requires 30 dinky kicks per game? Yes. Does it to perfection, won him a B&F.
If your B&F is a player whose role is 30 dinky kicks per game IMO you won't be challenging at the pointy end.
Every team needs someone playing off half back that can take the game forward. All the good teams half such a player.
Is Lloyd capable of being such a player. IMO, no.
Our best footy in the last 10 years was 2014 with Malceski and Rohan playing off half back.
One of my favourites goals is the one Sam Reid kicked in the 2012 GF from outside 50.
It is a perfect example of Eski... pulling the trigger AND having the vision and skills to pull it off.
IMO Lloyd doesn't have the vision, nor the skills for that kind of play.
That's not "heaping shit" on Lloyd. IMO it is a fair criticism.


Very, very sorry... was not pointing figure at you or suggesting you were heaping shit on Lloyd.

I think that if all Lloyd was contributing was 30 'dinky little kicks' per game, he would not have won B&F. It's pretty simple to me... to win, he pretty much needed the whole coaching panel to think he out performed a whole bunch of (imo) stellar players for most games last year.

I remember a couple of years back, 2016 maybe? Lloyd was missing from both our Hawthorn games and we lost by a goal... it was pretty clear to all of us at that time that he was an integral part of the team whose contributions were varied and excellent. Suddenly all anyone can say is that he has 'dinky little kicks' and is basically worthless to us.

So, respectfully I disagree...
 

Bloodied52

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Very, very sorry... was not pointing figure at you or suggesting you were heaping shit on Lloyd.

I think that if all Lloyd was contributing was 30 'dinky little kicks' per game, he would not have won B&F. It's pretty simple to me... to win, he pretty much needed the whole coaching panel to think he out performed a whole bunch of (imo) stellar players for most games last year.

I remember a couple of years back, 2016 maybe? Lloyd was missing from both our Hawthorn games and we lost by a goal... it was pretty clear to all of us at that time that he was an integral part of the team whose contributions were varied and excellent. Suddenly all anyone can say is that he has 'dinky little kicks' and is basically worthless to us.

So, respectfully I disagree...
Think it was 2017 when he playing more of a link role. I too think Lloyd is underestimated by some folk.

I think we don't get the maximum value from him because he now seems to be spend a large chunk of his time deep in D50. I would prefer to see him play further up the ground on the wing or HBF.
 

Kirkswan

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Think it was 2017 when he playing more of a link role. I too think Lloyd is underestimated by some folk.

I think we don't get the maximum value from him because he now seems to be spend a large chunk of his time deep in D50. I would prefer to see him play further up the ground on the wing or HBF.
It may well have been 17, and I like him at HBF best :)
 

Number37

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Very, very sorry... was not pointing figure at you or suggesting you were heaping shit on Lloyd.

I think that if all Lloyd was contributing was 30 'dinky little kicks' per game, he would not have won B&F. It's pretty simple to me... to win, he pretty much needed the whole coaching panel to think he out performed a whole bunch of (imo) stellar players for most games last year.

I remember a couple of years back, 2016 maybe? Lloyd was missing from both our Hawthorn games and we lost by a goal... it was pretty clear to all of us at that time that he was an integral part of the team whose contributions were varied and excellent. Suddenly all anyone can say is that he has 'dinky little kicks' and is basically worthless to us.

So, respectfully I disagree...
No need to apologise.
Lloyd plays a role, including dinky kicks =/= worthless to us.
Remember Micky O's goal against West Coast?
Not a coincidence that Eski was also involved in that sequence of play, delivering the final kick (too advantage).
Also not a coincidence that we took the game on.
Also not a coincidence that we didn't have everyone in the same half of the field.
The vision and skills required to pull off that kind of play is sorely lacking in today's team.
It might be hyper-critical putting the blame on Lloyd but IMO there is no denying that Lloyd's "role" is the one "role" that can dramatically change the way we play (for the better)....I'm not convinced that he has the skills or vision , like Eski, to make it happen.

 

MC Bad Genius

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No need to apologise.
Lloyd plays a role, including dinky kicks =/= worthless to us.
Remember Micky O's goal against West Coast?
Not a coincidence that Eski was also involved in that sequence of play, delivering the final kick (too advantage).
Also not a coincidence that we took the game on.
Also not a coincidence that we didn't have everyone in the same half of the field.
The vision and skills required to pull off that kind of play is sorely lacking in today's team.
It might be hyper-critical putting the blame on Lloyd but IMO there is no denying that Lloyd's "role" is the one "role" that can dramatically change the way we play (for the better)....I'm not convinced that he has the skills or vision , like Eski, to make it happen.

Look, I'm a big fan of Malceski and what he brought to our team, but that's a pretty poor example of it. Not sure how you can consider that a kick to advantage when the player he kicked it to didn't even get a touch on it!

Also, when the game is on the line like that, we always see a more attacking brand of football even during the Longmire era. The problem is that it takes moments of desperation to spark that kind of play.
 

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Number37

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Look, I'm a big fan of Malceski and what he brought to our team, but that's a pretty poor example of it. Not sure how you can consider that a kick to advantage when the player he kicked it to didn't even get a touch on it!

Also, when the game is on the line like that, we always see a more attacking brand of football even during the Longmire era. The problem is that it takes moments of desperation to spark that kind of play.
It's all in the trajectory of the kick.
Compare that to a kick that goes via the moon to travel ~50m (*cough* Lloyd *cough*)
 

Kirkswan

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No need to apologise.
Lloyd plays a role, including dinky kicks =/= worthless to us.
Remember Micky O's goal against West Coast?
Not a coincidence that Eski was also involved in that sequence of play, delivering the final kick (too advantage).
Also not a coincidence that we took the game on.
Also not a coincidence that we didn't have everyone in the same half of the field.
The vision and skills required to pull off that kind of play is sorely lacking in today's team.
It might be hyper-critical putting the blame on Lloyd but IMO there is no denying that Lloyd's "role" is the one "role" that can dramatically change the way we play (for the better)....I'm not convinced that he has the skills or vision , like Eski, to make it happen.

I love that goal and that reaction, could watch it forever...

But how do you compare different players in different teams? How many years had Eski been playing then? What was his game count? What was the teams game count? Who was the team? I'd be pretty amazed if it had the same age demographic as the current team.

Sorry, but I think its a wasted exercise to compare generations... I still think Lloyd goes okay
 

Number37

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I love that goal and that reaction, could watch it forever...

But how do you compare different players in different teams? How many years had Eski been playing then? What was his game count? What was the teams game count? Who was the team? I'd be pretty amazed if it had the same age demographic as the current team.

Sorry, but I think its a wasted exercise to compare generations... I still think Lloyd goes okay
You're trying to create reasonable doubt, sounds lawyer-ish to me. :p

Is Lloyd waiting until he plays 200 games before he starts pulling out the bullet 50m passes?
Does he need to wait until he plays 200 games before he starts pulling out the bullet 50m passes?
How does the age profile of the rest of the team impact on Lloyd's ability/capability to kick the ball?

Lloyd does go OK.
IMO he will only ever be OK, which is not so bad, I guess, unless he can elevate his game to the next level.
IMO Lloyd should aspire to lift his game to the next level. Like all players should.
 

legend166

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You used to be able to see possession heatmaps for previous seasons on the AFL but they don't show it now which is infuriating. I remember seeing Lloyd's for 2016 and it was much more up the ground than his ones these days. In 2016 he also had a 1:1 split between rebound 50s and inside 50s. Now it's 3:1 in favour of rebound 50s. I'm not blaming any of this on Lloyd by the way, considering he's getting coaches votes for playing this role - it's obviously a coaching direction. I think it just hurts us a lot and contributes to how we play so deep in defence.
 

Kirkswan

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You're trying to create reasonable doubt, sounds lawyer-ish to me. :p

Is Lloyd waiting until he plays 200 games before he starts pulling out the bullet 50m passes?
Does he need to wait until he plays 200 games before he starts pulling out the bullet 50m passes?
How does the age profile of the rest of the team impact on Lloyd's ability/capability to kick the ball?

Lloyd does go OK.
IMO he will only ever be OK, which is not so bad, I guess, unless he can elevate his game to the next level.
IMO Lloyd should aspire to lift his game to the next level. Like all players should.
There is no trying about it... there is reasonably doubt! And I do not have sufficient education to be a lawyer.

In my opinion, he doesn't need to do any more that he is currently doing... which the last time I heard him interviewed was his best each week with a focus on striving to improve. Why does he need a bullet pass if that is not his strength? Why does he need to conform to other's view of how he should play? The way he is playing is garnering the approval and approbation of his peers and his coaches. What possible reason is there to change?

I see to remember there were a lot of issues (albeit different issues) raised about the way LRT played and where he should play or where he played best. As I recall that turned out all right! ;)
 

Number37

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There is no trying about it... there is reasonably doubt! And I do not have sufficient education to be a lawyer.

In my opinion, he doesn't need to do any more that he is currently doing... which the last time I heard him interviewed was his best each week with a focus on striving to improve. Why does he need a bullet pass if that is not his strength? Why does he need to conform to other's view of how he should play? The way he is playing is garnering the approval and approbation of his peers and his coaches. What possible reason is there to change?

I see to remember there were a lot of issues (albeit different issues) raised about the way LRT played and where he should play or where he played best. As I recall that turned out all right! ;)
Creating doubt is not a law thing it is an argument thing.
It usually means that the person is attempting to avoid the substance of what they are arguing against.

For the record...
I am merely offering my opinion on him as a player.
I have made the basis of my opinion on Lloyd as a player very clear. If you missed it, IMO (important) his kicking and vision is IMO (important) not that great.
I have also drawn a comparison between him & Eski to help demonstrate how Lloyd taking his game to another level can benefit the team.

Lloyd doesn't have to do anything that is part of my opinion on how/where/what he should play.
That is another argument trick called a straw man.
 

Kirkswan

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Creating doubt is not a law thing it is an argument thing.
It usually means that the person is attempting to avoid the substance of what they are arguing against.

For the record...
I am merely offering my opinion on him as a player.
I have made the basis of my opinion on Lloyd as a player very clear. If you missed it, IMO (important) his kicking and vision is IMO (important) not that great.
I have also drawn a comparison between him & Eski to help demonstrate how Lloyd taking his game to another level can benefit the team.

Lloyd doesn't have to do anything that is part of my opinion on how/where/what he should play.
That is another argument trick called a straw man.
How did I build a straw man? I really don't think I did.

Were you not comparing Lloyd to Eski and finding him wanting/lacking?
Did i not then say that you can't compare generations and I still think Lloyd is fine as he is?
Did you not then ask when he going to start doing the bullet passes? And that he should aspire to the next level?
Did I not then say should he do bullet passes because others think he should?

Isn't all of this just our opinions because neither of us knows enough to be definitive about anything except perhaps a few words? The coaches obviously love the way he plays because they gave him a bloody medal!!

How is this a straw man? For the record, I didn't mean to avoid the substance of whatever we were arguing about.
 

Bloodied52

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How did I build a straw man? I really don't think I did.

Were you not comparing Lloyd to Eski and finding him wanting/lacking?
Did i not then say that you can't compare generations and I still think Lloyd is fine as he is?
Did you not then ask when he going to start doing the bullet passes? And that he should aspire to the next level?
Did I not then say should he do bullet passes because others think he should?

Isn't all of this just our opinions because neither of us knows enough to be definitive about anything except perhaps a few words? The coaches obviously love the way he plays because they gave him a bloody medal!!

How is this a straw man? For the record, I didn't mean to avoid the substance of whatever we were arguing about.
geebers! ... Agree with Kirky on this one.... most of us have blind spots (geebers - even Horse trots down the track with a white cane on some issues). I think we know N37s one blind spot (well excluding his antipathy to the champion Victorian Shield winners and his Horse is an omnipotent god routine).

I think Lloyd is a wonderful player. Is he Dangerfield or Dusty - NO. He's the classic blue collar worker who sacrifices his natural game for the team -YES.

We would be stuffed without him.
 

Number37

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geebers! ... Agree with Kirky on this one.... most of us have blind spots (geebers - even Horse trots down the track with a white cane on some issues). I think we know N37s one blind spot (well excluding his antipathy to the champion Victorian Shield winners and his Horse is an omnipotent god routine).

I think Lloyd is a wonderful player. Is he Dangerfield or Dusty - NO. He's the classic blue collar worker who sacrifices his natural game for the team -YES.

We would be stuffed without him.
That's the big problem with the "it's Horse's fault" brigade.
Your arguments are wholly inconsistent.
We get stuck in our back half and the player that gets the ball 30 times every game is one player that can help us move the ball better.
He doesn't need to kick 30 bullet 50m passes every game. Let's start with 2 or 3. I'll take 1.
 

Number37

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How did I build a straw man? I really don't think I did.

Were you not comparing Lloyd to Eski and finding him wanting/lacking?
Did i not then say that you can't compare generations and I still think Lloyd is fine as he is?
Did you not then ask when he going to start doing the bullet passes? And that he should aspire to the next level?
Did I not then say should he do bullet passes because others think he should?

Isn't all of this just our opinions because neither of us knows enough to be definitive about anything except perhaps a few words? The coaches obviously love the way he plays because they gave him a bloody medal!!

How is this a straw man? For the record, I didn't mean to avoid the substance of whatever we were arguing about.
The discussion was about how Lloyd could improve his game to improve the team's game.
At least as far I was concerned.
It wasn't about whether Eski is better. IMO, that isn't even a competition, but that's a different discussion.
Eski was just an example.
Rhyce Shaw is another example, it didn't always work out for him, but at least he pulled the trigger every now and then...particularly when he could sense that we were going nowhere.

Lloyd should do bullet passes because the primary benefit will be to the team. A secondary benefit will be my viewing pleasure.
 

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