Player Watch #6: Jason Horne-Francis - Selection 1 in the 2021 Draft - Welcome to North Melbourne

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Nutjob

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Oct 23, 2014
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The only play I would say is a conclusively better player than Boomer from that list is Ablett jnr. Everyone else you can find other players that play the exact same role. The impact and uniqueness of Harvey's style of play and effectiveness per possession is not matched nor could be replicated by any other player on that list.

I loved Boomer, but seriously this is bonkers.

Judd - One of the best midfielders to ever play. I don’t rate the Brownlow, but people keep referencing to Boomer coming 2nd and 6th. This guy won 2 over that era.
Franklin - The best forward since Carey. He is about to kick 1000 goals ffs.
Cox - The best ruckman I have ever seen. He was irreplaceable during his era and changed the game as a ruckman.
Scarlett - Best full back I have ever seen. Again changed the game as a full back. He was a stopper, but was also an offensive weapon. To say he was replaceable is beyond insane.
Pavlich - Probably one of the most versatile players to ever play the game at an elite level across all positions. Good luck replacing that easily.

I could go on with the others, but I think you get the point.





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Nutjob

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Hall and Brown weren't even playing back then.

And even tho Hall was good last season he wasn't a patch on Boomer in his prime.

What do you mean they weren’t playing?

Brown kicked 150 goals over the 07 & 08 seasons ??? He was at his absolute peak. He followed up with another 85 goals in 09.

Hall kicked a lot of goals over a long period and a lot regarded him as the best forward in the game. Right up until 2010 where he kicked 80 goals, he was an absolute gun.




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Nutjob

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Brad Hardie won it... So did Shane woewoeden.

Exactly my point, it’s not a good gauge of a players ranking in the game. The fact that it is purely a midfielders award makes the Brownlow argument completely mute.

Anyone using the Brownlow to support your argument, really need to look further in depth to support your argument. It doesn’t reflect the true value of a forward or back in any way at all.


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Jindrrk

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I loved Boomer, but seriously this is bonkers.

Judd - One of the best midfielders to ever play. I don’t rate the Brownlow, but people keep referencing to Boomer coming 2nd and 6th. This guy won 2 over that era.
Franklin - The best forward since Carey. He is about to kick 1000 goals ffs.
Cox - The best ruckman I have ever seen. He was irreplaceable during his era and changed the game as a ruckman.
Scarlett - Best full back I have ever seen. Again changed the game as a full back. He was a stopper, but was also an offensive weapon. To say he was replaceable is beyond insane.
Pavlich - Probably one of the most versatile players to ever play the game at an elite level across all positions. Good luck replacing that easily.

I could go on with the others, but I think you get the point.





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But what were they like in those two years. You've just mentioned great players but not what their years were like in the period he mentioned
 

Engimal v3

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Lol that is absurd.

Here are some names from that era:

Judd
Hall
Brown
Goodes
Pavlich
Riewoldt
Cox
Franklin
Kerr
Cousins
Ablett jnr
Scarlett
Hodge
Fevola
Black

I loved boomer, but he wasn’t in the same class as above.



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It's not absurd at all. 2007/2008 was peak Boomer, and he had a top 2 Browlow finish and was thought of as a strong chance to win before the count.

I think because Boomer played for almost a decade after his prime that people forget how good he was. Like, he was good in 2016, but fu** me dead was he good in the late 2000s.
 

Grogg

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Yeah for that year. You don’t judge a players status in the game off 1 season.


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The basis for my original comment, which you responded to as "absurd", was that you could make an argument (as opposed to an absolute conclusion) that he was in the conversation for being the best player over those two years.

You jumped the gun a bit mate.
 

Nutjob

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But what were they like in those two years. You've just mentioned great players but not what their years were like in the period he mentioned

You don’t rank players off one particular year. You judge them off seasons over an extended period of time. There are plenty of players over the years who have performed at a top 10 level over a season, but I wouldn’t necessarily deem them top 10 players. There are players who have won the Brownlow that I wouldn’t deem top 10 players in the competition.

Dusty wasn’t a top 10 player in the league this year. Does that make him not a top 10 player in the league? F**k no.


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Engimal v3

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Yeah for that year. You don’t judge a players status in the game off 1 season.


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This is the post you responded to originally:
You could make an argument for him being the best player in the comp in 2007, 2008.



If you don't believe that we should judge his perfomance in 2007 and 2008 from his performances in 2007 and 2008, what metric should we use?
 
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Nutjob

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This is the post you responded to originally:




If you don't believe that we should judge his perfomance in 2007 and 2007 from his performances in 2007 and 2008, what metric should we use?

Can you reword that so I can understand it?


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Nutjob

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The basis for my original comment, which you responded to as "absurd", was that you could make an argument (as opposed to an absolute conclusion) that he was in the conversation for being the best player over those two years.

You jumped the gun a bit mate.

I still don’t think he was ever a top 10 player. I just pointed out that he deserved a bit more credit than I originally gave him and someone could argue he is in the conversation as a top 10 player. My stance still remains the same that we haven’t had a top 10 player in the competition since Carey.


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Grogg

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I still don’t think he was ever a top 10 player. I just pointed out that he deserved a bit more credit than I originally gave him and someone could argue he is in the conversation as a top 10 player. My stance still remains the same that we haven’t had a top 10 player in the competition since Carey.


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I'll leave you to it dude
 

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Nutjob

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It's not absurd at all. 2007/2008 was peak Boomer, and he had a top 2 Browlow finish and was thought of as a strong chance to win before the count.

I think because Boomer played for almost a decade after his prime that people forget how good he was. Like, he was good in 2016, but fu** me dead was he good in the late 2000s.

Again I see the Brownlow as such a terrible way to support any players status in the game. Are we just rating the top 10 midfielders or the whole competition?

I don’t ever remember Boomer being a ‘strong chance’ to win the Brownlow. You have any odds from back then to support that?


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Nutjob

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LOL.

I can't help you if you lack basic comprehension of the written word bro.

Did I not concede ground with my view regarding Boomer over that era, but still have the same conclusion? I fully comprehended you bro, it just didn’t sway my opinion. He was good, he just wasn’t top 10 material.


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Sphynx

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Again I see the Brownlow as such a terrible way to support any players status in the game. Are we just rating the top 10 midfielders or the whole competition?

I don’t ever remember Boomer being a ‘strong chance’ to win the Brownlow. You have any odds from back then to support that?


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Im more in line with your thinking, however you are wrong on your last point.

Vividly remember Boomer going into the night equal favorite with Ablett in 07 I think it was.

They would have both been about $5 favs.
 

Grogg

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Did I not concede ground with my view regarding Boomer over that era, but still have the same conclusion? I fully comprehended you bro, it just didn’t sway my opinion.


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Mate you basically just doubled down on an argument that I never made in the first place, but yeah, anyway........
 

Grogg

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Im more in line with your thinking, however you are wrong on your last point.

Vividly remember Boomer going into the night equal favorite with Ablett in 07 I think it was.

They would have both been about $5 favs.
He was.

Which was the original point.
 

brooksnk

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Again I see the Brownlow as such a terrible way to support any players status in the game. Are we just rating the top 10 midfielders or the whole competition?

I don’t ever remember Boomer being a ‘strong chance’ to win the Brownlow. You have any odds from back then to support that?


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His odds were definitely in the top 3 those years. Anyway, I maintain that the only player on your list *conclusively* better is GAJ. A fair debate can be had with the others, but Boomer is well within the discussion and better than most of them in my view.

Also, show me another player with stats this consistent for so damn long. And again, the stats underplay how impactful he was. Dare say if they had score involvements tracked for his career, it would be absurdly high. If you had a crystal ball at the draft, the 3 big things you would be selecting for is peak ability, consistency and longevity. There are probably only a handful of players in history that match Boomer across a combination of these three factors.

Also remember that his effectiveness didn't dilute as the game evolved. He was high output/effective for 20 years. On a side note, I am convinced the guy could rock up round 1 next year and clock up 24 touched and 3 goals.

Anyway...user name checks out.

Screen Shot 2021-10-19 at 11.48.30 pm.png
 

hilly

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2nd fav prior to 2007 Brownlow count.


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Nutjob

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His odds were definitely in the top 3 those years. Anyway, I maintain that the only player on your list *conclusively* better is GAJ. A fair debate can be had with the others, but Boomer is well within the discussion and better than most of them in my view.

Also, show me another player with stats this consistent for so damn long. And again, the stats underplay how impactful he was. Dare say if they had score involvements tracked for his career, it would be absurdly high. If you had a crystal ball at the draft, the 3 big things you would be selecting for is peak ability, consistency and longevity. There are probably only a handful of players in history that match Boomer across a combination of these three factors.

Also remember that his effectiveness didn't dilute as the game evolved. He was high output/effective for 20 years. On a side note, I am convinced the guy could rock up round 1 next year and clock up 24 touched and 3 goals.

Anyway...user name checks out.

View attachment 1263984

Mate it’s like comparing apples and oranges. You’re right Boomer might excel in certain areas because he is a completely different player to the other players I mentioned.

Scarlett was a full back. How can he compete with goals and goal assists? Like seriously??

Franklin is nearing on a 1000 goals. Judging off your narrow criteria, does that not make him more superior to Boomer?

Pavlich played various positions throughout his career. Is that not a consideration when you base your evaluation off stats?

Cox was a ruckman. How can you even compare the two statistically?

Just to be clear, I thought boomer was a gun. I just don’t think he was ever a top 10 player in the league. Yes he may have played a season where he was in form as a top 10 player for that year, but to me that doesn’t translate as a top 10 player in the comp. A top 10 player in my view is someone who performs at a very high level year after year consistently. I don’t believe Boomer performed at a top 10 level year after year like many on my list had. Other people may have differing views on what constitutes a top 10 player, but that is my view.

What I can see now is that we have players on our list now that have the potential to be top 10 players. This all originally started from me posting that ‘we haven’t had a top 10 player since Carey.’ Whether Harvey makes the cut or not, it has been slim pickings for decades. Exciting times ahead.










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Roman Roy

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Again I see the Brownlow as such a terrible way to support any players status in the game. Are we just rating the top 10 midfielders or the whole competition?

I don’t ever remember Boomer being a ‘strong chance’ to win the Brownlow. You have any odds from back then to support that?


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Is this guy serious? I mean, FFS, it's fine if you aren't old enough or you just don't remember. But otherwise, don't offer your hot takes about Boomer's status in the game if you don't know anything about him.
 

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