6 out of 7 losses under 21 points. Are we mentally weak?

wart101

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Posts
6,498
Likes
6,834
Location
Under the fridge
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Portland FC
#26
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr we have improved a shit load this year JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZUZ
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

wart101

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Mar 18, 2006
Posts
6,498
Likes
6,834
Location
Under the fridge
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Portland FC
#27
Cotchin 22, Riewoldt 23, Rance 22, Morris 23, Connors 23, Edwards 23, Martin 21, Grimes 20, Griffiths 20, Elton 19, Ellis 19, Dea 21. I think a lot of people forget how young these guys actually are, composure in tight games will only come after experience, we did against the saints. Look at Geelong, until there core group of players got to their mid 20s with 100-150 games under their belts they had talent but were nothing special, it takes a lot of time, experience and playing together as group over a number of years where they understand each others game and know what team mates are going to do before they do it. Through smart trading in the national draft, rookie picks and targeting players for certain roles, together with a consistently higher effort each week slowly the wheels will turn. I think we are going well only 2 1/2 years into hardwicks tenure and he's doing a great job
Thank you, someone that is making sense around here and not playing this stupid blame game after we lose to a top 4 side by only 19 point even though it was dissapointing.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Posts
1,504
Likes
1,884
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
OKC
#29
All games we were in winning positions and in the contest.

Vs Collingwood (21 point loss) in 2011 - 71 point loss
Vs Geelong (10 point loss) - 62 point loss
Vs West Coast (10 point loss) - 57 point loss
Vs Essendon (19 point loss) - 39 point loss + a win
Vs Fremantle (12 point loss) - won by 49 ( biggest disappointment of the year)
Vs Adelaide (19 point loss) - won by 22 ( crows 10 times better this year)

Do we lack mental strength?
its just progression and were not quiet there yet. we finally start winning some games and people start thinking everything should go our way. we win most if not all the close games and were top 2. we are a long way from deserving to be a top 2 OR 4 side. lets just be happy with scraping into the eight. personally im getting alot of satisfaction from being a better side than people gave us credit for......... FOR NOW
 

tigerT

Premiership Player
Joined
Mar 16, 2003
Posts
3,850
Likes
1,635
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Philadelphia Eagles
#31
Clearly mentally weak. You can't win all close ones, but a clear pattern is emerging. Of those losses, several we simply threw away and choked in. Clear as day
 

Bazzar

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
35,568
Likes
42,296
AFL Club
Richmond
#32
No King - No Tiges.

Vs Collingwood (21 point loss) Kings first game for the year, and first back after suspension and worst for entire career.
Vs Geelong (10 point loss) No King
Vs West Coast (10 point loss) No King
Vs Essendon (19 point loss) Played, but no excuse.
Vs Fremantle (12 point loss) No King
Vs Adelaide (19 point loss) No King for the last half.

First half -
King - 13disp, 4 marks, 5 i50s, 1 clearance, 2 tackles, 8 pressure acts, 3 score involvements.
Tiges - Won first half by 15pts, scoring conversion 71.4%.

Second half -
No King
Tiges - Lost half by 34pts, scoring conversion 37.5%


Richmond was widely mocked by some supporters, opposition supporters and some media when he was made Captain for those few NAB games, but i have read/heard a few times he has a excellent football brain and reads the game better than most. Newman is the general down back, and Kingie is the man up forward organising players and structures.

You never see a game with him in where he isnt yelling, pointing, looking, organising players. When he is out, our forward line always appears to be in disarray and when the ball is delivered you never get the feeling we are certainties to score (unless Jack is on fire) Kingie isnt the only reason we lose, but he is a big part of it and unfortunately he is out for 6 minimum. Not good.
 

carn tigez

Premiership Player
Joined
May 24, 2006
Posts
4,528
Likes
1,174
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
#33
Just to add to that, as of a couple of weeks ago our stats in the last ~3 years are:

Games Jake King played:
Wins: 20
Losses: 25
Draws: 2

Games he didn't play:
Wins: 1
Losses: 18



I don't think it's a coincidence. Too many on here just rate him as another 'meh' player. He's vital to us and doesn't need to be phased out like many think.
 

tigerT

Premiership Player
Joined
Mar 16, 2003
Posts
3,850
Likes
1,635
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Philadelphia Eagles
#34
Just to add to that, as of a couple of weeks ago our stats in the last ~3 years are:

Games Jake King played:
Wins: 20
Losses: 25
Draws: 2

Games he didn't play:
Wins: 1
Losses: 18



I don't think it's a coincidence. Too many on here just rate him as another 'meh' player. He's vital to us and doesn't need to be phased out like many think.
Wow that's eye opening
 

tunksy

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Posts
7,831
Likes
10,978
AFL Club
Richmond
#35
young and inexperienced we'll get there.​
crows and those other teams are a lot further ahead of us.​
this place is insane after a loss:D
 

Dragonss

Premiership Player
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Posts
3,277
Likes
2,588
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
New Orlean Hornets
#36
To be honest I think we just lack form in certain players, particularly our forward line and maybe our game plan can sometimes be the cause, we just don't know
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Bazzar

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
35,568
Likes
42,296
AFL Club
Richmond
#37
young and inexperienced we'll get there.​
crows and those other teams are a lot further ahead of us.​
this place is insane after a loss:D
Not a lot in it yesterday, basically comes down to one extra preseason.

Adelaide Attribute Richmond
185.3cm Height 188.0cm​
87.6kg Weight 87.6kg​
25yr 1mth Age 24yr 1mth​
75.7 Games 66.1​

Adelaide Games Richmond
10 Less than 50 10​
7 50 to 99 7​
1 100 to 149 3​
4 150 or more 2​
 

Wallaby

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
8,299
Likes
8,741
Location
vic
AFL Club
Richmond
#40
Vs Collingwood (21 point loss) - 24 scoring shots to 25 - they kicked straighter or it would have been really close.
Vs Geelong (10 point loss) - 20 scoring shots to 20 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference.
Vs West Coast (10 point loss) - - 27 scoring shots to 25 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference.
Vs Essendon (19 point loss) - 34 scoring shots to 33 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference.
Vs Fremantle (12 point loss) - 21 scoring shots to 18 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference
Vs Adelaide (19 point loss) - 22 scoring shots to 21 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference

We won the St Kilda game by kicking straighter.

This is a big worry. Dont forget the near disaster against GWS when we had 31 shots to 14 and only won by 12 points. Overall there are 4 sides in 2012 with the same or worse accuracy (Goals/behinds) this season - Carlton, Essendon, Melbourne, who are all basically level with us, and the Bulldogs (who are by far the worst).
When you add that to the fact that our opponents are the 5th most accurate (even without yeaterday's game) - the only teams worse are Sydney - (distorted because the SCG is by far the easiest ground to kick goals on - the Swans are also the most accurate team), Bulldogs, North and Freo.
OK, leaving out the Bulldogs who are in real trouble these suggests something is wrong with our game plan. Maybe we are creating chances for our forwards in difficult spots, making the goals hard to kick. maybe our defence is giving up chances in easily kickable situations, or maybe we are not applying enough pressure. The nightmare was the last quarter against the Eagles where the Eagles basically had 4 I50s, took 4 shots for goal (3 of them snaps out of the pack) - and got them all. At the other end we kicked 2.4.

Our average score so far is 14.14. Against is 13.11. (to Rd 12 - yesterday will make thos figures worse).

Goals win matches.
 

Goldust

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Posts
12,483
Likes
14,414
Location
Chisholm, Minnesota
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Nashville Predators
#41
I wouldn't say we're mentally weak, I think - to a degree - we are punching above our weight with the list we have. Yeah we have a great midfield with Cotchin, Deledio, Foley (when fit), Martin and the perfect complements in Tuck and Maric (finally a decent ruckman), we have the one star forward and a developing backline, but not much experience. We still have a few weak links. As I say, the backline is developing .... Grimes has played all of 15 games or thereabouts, Morris half a season, ditto for Ellis and Griff and it's blatantly obvious we need another key forward or two. Neither Miller, after a reasonable start to the year, nor Vickery is getting it done and Elton simply won't at his age and experience.
What stood out for me yesterday - and in most of our wins - is we won't games like that when we have so many players not affecting the outcome.
Yesterday, none of Elton, Miller, Conners, Dea, Houli and Nahas and probably others had any influence at all. Two or more of those producing more than they did would have likely pushed the game back our way. We need more contributions.
 

WATIGE

Club Legend
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Posts
2,200
Likes
1,653
Location
Perth
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Aussie Cricket, Ricciardo
#42
...... Jake King ..... doesn't need to be phased out like many think.
Yes he does. Just by someone who offers everything that he does plus adds skill and flies under the umpires gaze. We just don't have that player yet. Until we do he is best 18.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Posts
1,883
Likes
1,123
Location
Hexham
AFL Club
Richmond
#43
Not a lot in it yesterday, basically comes down to one extra preseason.

Adelaide Attribute Richmond
185.3cm Height 188.0cm​
87.6kg Weight 87.6kg​
25yr 1mth Age 24yr 1mth​
75.7 Games 66.1​

Adelaide Games Richmond
10 Less than 50 10​
7 50 to 99 7​
1 100 to 149 3​
4 150 or more 2​
Interesting.

I was going to post how I don't think it's mental weakness as much as fitness, we currently can't run out games even after the bye. This may have something to do with the lack of depth of midfield rotations as mentioned by previous posters.

From you stats the other thing that stands out is that whilst we went in taller we were the same average weight, suggesting that Adelaide where the 'bigger bodied' side.

Will accept these close loses this year, given our trajectory from 2010 onwards. (We seem to have blanked out the 60-100 point thrashings of the previous two seasons)

Won't be accepting them next year.
 

Bazzar

Hall of Famer
Joined
May 8, 2007
Posts
35,568
Likes
42,296
AFL Club
Richmond
#44
Interesting.

I was going to post how I don't think it's mental weakness as much as fitness, we currently can't run out games even after the bye. This may have something to do with the lack of depth of midfield rotations as mentioned by previous posters.

From you stats the other thing that stands out is that whilst we went in taller we were the same average weight, suggesting that Adelaide where the 'bigger bodied' side.

Will accept these close loses this year, given our trajectory from 2010 onwards. (We seem to have blanked out the 60-100 point thrashings of the previous two seasons)

Won't be accepting them next year.
We had 130 to their 153 interchanges also. That makes it easier to run a game out.

On your second point, thats a great call. I didnt think of it that way but it makes sense.
 

theflea

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Posts
23,727
Likes
25,613
Location
victoria
AFL Club
Richmond
#46
We are well coached leading up to matches and evidence of that is how we play in the first qtrs.... high percentage of the time we come out dominating... (I just think the high work rate in the first qtr's are not helping us play out games)... but Dimma can talk full credit for getting us up for games. He is still learning the caper..... and is doing a better job than I would do....lol. With more money going into the football department we will have the luxury of my eyes in the coaching box also.

Dimma would be the type of person that would be open to criticism and ultimatley that makes him a better coach.... regardlesss whether or not he agrees...... If I feel we make a mistake thern I am going to bring it up....
hey nut sure you can. i just have a different view which i will state also.
 

HeadandShin

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Posts
1,258
Likes
3,177
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Liverpool
#47
Vs Collingwood (21 point loss) - 24 scoring shots to 25 - they kicked straighter or it would have been really close.
Vs Geelong (10 point loss) - 20 scoring shots to 20 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference.
Vs West Coast (10 point loss) - - 27 scoring shots to 25 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference.
Vs Essendon (19 point loss) - 34 scoring shots to 33 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference.
Vs Fremantle (12 point loss) - 21 scoring shots to 18 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference
Vs Adelaide (19 point loss) - 22 scoring shots to 21 - they kicked straighter and that was the difference

We won the St Kilda game by kicking straighter.

This is a big worry. Dont forget the near disaster against GWS when we had 31 shots to 14 and only won by 12 points. Overall there are 4 sides in 2012 with the same or worse accuracy (Goals/behinds) this season - Carlton, Essendon, Melbourne, who are all basically level with us, and the Bulldogs (who are by far the worst).
When you add that to the fact that our opponents are the 5th most accurate (even without yeaterday's game) - the only teams worse are Sydney - (distorted because the SCG is by far the easiest ground to kick goals on - the Swans are also the most accurate team), Bulldogs, North and Freo.
OK, leaving out the Bulldogs who are in real trouble these suggests something is wrong with our game plan. Maybe we are creating chances for our forwards in difficult spots, making the goals hard to kick. maybe our defence is giving up chances in easily kickable situations, or maybe we are not applying enough pressure. The nightmare was the last quarter against the Eagles where the Eagles basically had 4 I50s, took 4 shots for goal (3 of them snaps out of the pack) - and got them all. At the other end we kicked 2.4.

Our average score so far is 14.14. Against is 13.11. (to Rd 12 - yesterday will make thos figures worse).

Goals win matches.
Nice analysis Wal. It has been on my mind for a while now. Especially seeing the Sydney V GWS game where the scoring shot difference wasn't too much different from ours 2 weeks ago (if you include our shots that went out on the full), yet they win by 100pts!.

On a positive note What is does show is that we are getting the ball up there to be competitive, and that we are still competing even though our forward line is just not functioning well. We sort that out (not exactly sure how) and well.... we got a taste of that in the first quarter yesterday.
 

HeadandShin

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Posts
1,258
Likes
3,177
Location
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Liverpool
#48
No King - No Tiges.

Vs Collingwood (21 point loss) Kings first game for the year, and first back after suspension and worst for entire career.
Vs Geelong (10 point loss) No King
Vs West Coast (10 point loss) No King
Vs Essendon (19 point loss) Played, but no excuse.
Vs Fremantle (12 point loss) No King
Vs Adelaide (19 point loss) No King for the last half.

First half -
King - 13disp, 4 marks, 5 i50s, 1 clearance, 2 tackles, 8 pressure acts, 3 score involvements.
Tiges - Won first half by 15pts, scoring conversion 71.4%.

Second half -
No King
Tiges - Lost half by 34pts, scoring conversion 37.5%


Richmond was widely mocked by some supporters, opposition supporters and some media when he was made Captain for those few NAB games, but i have read/heard a few times he has a excellent football brain and reads the game better than most. Newman is the general down back, and Kingie is the man up forward organising players and structures.

You never see a game with him in where he isnt yelling, pointing, looking, organizing players. When he is out, our forward line always appears to be in disarray and when the ball is delivered you never get the feeling we are certainties to score (unless Jack is on fire) Kingie isnt the only reason we lose, but he is a big part of it and unfortunately he is out for 6 minimum. Not good.
Totally agree. Just because someone isn't the most gifted player doesn't mean they can't read whats going on. Jake makes mistakes, as all players do, but he adds so much more than what his stats or DT points suggest. He sees the bigger picture while out there and there are many who do not.
I reckon King going down yesterday hurt us big time. Apart from the couple of out of bounds on the full (which I might add I'd prefer rather than kicking infield to a player outnumbered 4-1), he did some great stuff yesterday, including making a contest that got JR his third.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Posts
14,616
Likes
907
Location
Guantanomo Bay
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
#50
All games we were in winning positions and in the contest.

Vs Collingwood (21 point loss)
Vs Geelong (10 point loss)
Vs West Coast (10 point loss)
Vs Essendon (19 point loss)
Vs Fremantle (12 point loss)
Vs Adelaide (19 point loss)

Do we lack mental strength?
No

Shows we are a lot lot closer than what we have been in many a year ;)

Note that 4 of those losses are against the top 4 sides and a team that has won 3 of the last 5 flags ;)
 
Top Bottom