Past #6: Taylor Garner - delisted end '21 - 49 NM games/37 NM goals - go well Garns

Groin guru

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 21, 2017
10,261
29,970
Destination Club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I find this incredibly disturbing, especially that people are okay with it. Maybe I've lived in the bush too long but working for someone doesn't give them any rights over your life outside of working hours.

Plus there are unintended consequences. I know people who work in FIFO mines and get drug tested. Instead of smoking pot on their fortnight off - which shows up in a test even after its no longer affecting them - they take other more serious drugs that don't. These drugs don't show up on tests and then find their way onto mine sites where people use them during their fortnight on work. Accident rates go up and production rates go down as a result.

Its none of any legit workplaces business what you do outside work hours unless you are wearing your work uniform or something similar when you do it. IE if its obvious you're bringing them into disrepute.

That's a genuine threat to people's freedom. As opposed to that stuff we wank on about in that other thread.
Correct, that sentence is exactly why you have no idea. When you've worked with elite athletes and not "I know FIFO people" maybe you could relate.

Players have a lot of freedom but that freedom gets smaller and smaller when you're injured or not performing. The freedom and scrutiny get a lot smaller if your freedom involves drinking, getting into altercations, and getting kicked out of a bar/club. Don't think of it as freedom, think of it as your chances of playing/living up to expectations from peers and coaches. Ultimately you can do what you like but if a player does and it extends outside the realm of what is expected from you well let us see how far that gets you.

If performance was the only thing that mattered then why do clubs spend so long interviewing players? Why do some bring sports psychologists along? Clubs want less Garner/LMac types and more Ziebell/Higgins types.
Firstly, you don't know if the club made no issue of it, so thats moot. That it ain't in the public realm doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.

Secondly, if players want to blow off steam they can do what they like. I ain't no puritan and during their downtime i don't care what players do, as long as it does not impact their performance when at the club or preparation for training or games. This is not where i see issue.

My 'problem' is that its these two specifically. I expect more from these two given their talent, contractual investment by the club and coming off the year they have had. Perhaps my expectations of these two well known party boys on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is too high but was is a fact is that getting hammered, which these two like to do, impacts recovery. And both would want to have strong preseasons and better years than 18. If people see this position as problematic well, i don't know what to say.
This. I'm really struggling to see how people can't understand this. It has been outlined several times now. It's the some of all parts and a conclusion has been based on that.

Not "but freedom, but drinks, but fun, but human beings!!!"

This: "the club hasn't said anything so everyone else is making a big deal over nothing" stuff is funny.
 

Groin guru

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 21, 2017
10,261
29,970
Destination Club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
All things considered, Brad seems to have a good balance with the players on this stuff.

Majak quite rightly copped a demotion to the twos when he was out clubbing during rehab. Kayne copped a demotion for his drink driving. Luke copped one for boozing excessively in Tassie last year.

Brad and co will punish bad behaviour where it happens.

Also, it seems like Shaun Higgins sets a real standard around the club. I saw Higgo a few years ago having beers with the boys around this time of year.

Tom Scully or Bailey Smith style teetotal driven freaks are outliers.
Of course. That is well said. For all we know Brad may have said nothing - he shouldn't really have to in this situation. It'd be a worry if LMac and Garner are sitting at home thinking "s**t I hope we don't get called into Brad's office" instead of reflecting on what happened in a negative way.

Coaches know everything and it'd be naive to think they aren't factoring all this in when team selection and contracts come around.
 

GarnerSmash

They tried to make me go to rehab
10k Posts Ex-Moderator North Melbourne - 2015 Daw & MacMillan Player Sponsor North Melbourne - 2014 Daw, Black, Gibson Player Sponsor North Melbourne - 2013 Daw, Black and Gibson Player Sponsorship North Melbourne - North 2012 Player Sponsor North Melbourne - North 2011 Player Sponsor North Melbourne - North 2010 Player Sponsor
Jun 2, 2009
26,836
52,085
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Really? Is that it?

My earlier point wasn't particularly directed at you, it just happened to follow shortly after you had added to others with their silly moralising, however I can see why you would choose to take it on board.

It's a non issue mate.

End of story.
Fair enough re direction of posts. Apologies.

I want these two to make it, real bad. Because of that, and because of the last 12 months, i exepct more. But thats just me.

Im done.
 
Apr 24, 2013
81,024
153,170
Arden Street Hill
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Essendon Lawn Bowls Club
Fair enough re direction of posts. Apologies.

I want these two to make it, real bad. Because of that, and because of the last 12 months i expect more, but that's just me.

Im done, I promise.

All good. You know I respect your footy opinions mate.
 
Dec 27, 2017
24,213
53,348
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Correct, that sentence is exactly why you have no idea. When you've worked with elite athletes and not "I know FIFO people" maybe you could relate.

Players have a lot of freedom but that freedom gets smaller and smaller when you're injured or not performing. The freedom and scrutiny get a lot smaller if your freedom involves drinking, getting into altercations, and getting kicked out of a bar/club. Don't think of it as freedom, think of it as your chances of playing/living up to expectations from peers and coaches. Ultimately you can do what you like but if a player does and it extends outside the realm of what is expected from you well let us see how far that gets you.

If performance was the only thing that mattered then why do clubs spend so long interviewing players? Why do some bring sports psychologists along? Clubs want less Garner/LMac types and more Ziebell/Higgins types.

This. I'm really struggling to see how people can't understand this. It has been outlined several times now. It's the some of all parts and a conclusion has been based on that.

Not "but freedom, but drinks, but fun, but human beings!!!"

This: "the club hasn't said anything so everyone else is making a big deal over nothing" stuff is funny.

Ziebell probably isn’t the right example for your point
 

the flying ham

Cancelled
Dec 12, 2006
7,403
16,059
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Firstly, you don't know if the club made no issue of it, so thats moot. That it ain't in the public realm doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.

Secondly, if players want to blow off steam they can do what they like. I ain't no puritan and during their downtime i don't care what players do, as long as it does not impact their performance when at the club or preparation for training or games. This is not where i see issue.

My 'problem' is that its these two specifically. I expect more from these two given their talent, contractual investment by the club and coming off the year they have had. Perhaps my expectations of these two well known party boys on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is too high but was is a fact is that getting hammered, which these two like to do, impacts recovery. And both would want to have strong preseasons and better years than 18. If people see this position as problematic well, i don't know what to say.
Point to as many hypotheticals as you want regarding the club's position. Fact remains it hasnt hit the funny pages. Storm in a teacup.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

the flying ham

Cancelled
Dec 12, 2006
7,403
16,059
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Firstly, you don't know if the club made no issue of it, so thats moot. That it ain't in the public realm doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.

Secondly, if players want to blow off steam they can do what they like. I ain't no puritan and during their downtime i don't care what players do, as long as it does not impact their performance when at the club or preparation for training or games. This is not where i see issue.

My 'problem' is that its these two specifically. I expect more from these two given their talent, contractual investment by the club and coming off the year they have had. Perhaps my expectations of these two well known party boys on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is too high but was is a fact is that getting hammered, which these two like to do, impacts recovery. And both would want to have strong preseasons and better years than 18. If people see this position as problematic well, i don't know what to say.
Again, your whole argument is based on a hypothetical. Really nothing to carry on about.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Hilarious thread.

"Ive got photo's, you haven't seen them, I'm not showing you so I know more than you do but let's not talk about it."

Classic bigfooty.
 
Dec 27, 2017
24,213
53,348
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Hilarious thread.

"Ive got photo's, you haven't seen them, I'm not showing you so I know more than you do but let's not talk about it."

Classic bigfooty.

Preseason at its best. Reminds me of the time Cunnington finished the time trial at the back end and people were questioning his effort. Next minute 2nd in the BnF
 

Kimbo

Cancelled
Veteran 10k Posts
Dec 14, 2002
19,301
29,318
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Sturt, Liverpool
Can't work out if "hysteria" or "hilarious". :cool: :D

I still think there's room for an 'I'm outraged about the "outrage" ' thread. There would be 2-3 issues each year where a whole lot of posts could be moved to said thread. Then, reviewing the thread as a whole, that would make for a hilarious read.

Meanwhile, may I say, it'd be great if Taylor Garner can recover his fitness and form and play 15+ games of excellent footy for us in 2019. I'd drink to that. :beercheers:
 
Last edited:
Correct, that sentence is exactly why you have no idea. When you've worked with elite athletes and not "I know FIFO people" maybe you could relate.

Players have a lot of freedom but that freedom gets smaller and smaller when you're injured or not performing. The freedom and scrutiny get a lot smaller if your freedom involves drinking, getting into altercations, and getting kicked out of a bar/club. Don't think of it as freedom, think of it as your chances of playing/living up to expectations from peers and coaches. Ultimately you can do what you like but if a player does and it extends outside the realm of what is expected from you well let us see how far that gets you.

Its one thing to talk about professional AFL players or other elite athletes, especially ones in the public eye with associated sponsorships and all the rest. You specifically said:

Most legit workplaces (outside of working at a fast food chain or retail) would be upset upon hearing that you had a few and got kicked out of a club.

You said most legit workplaces (that would include mines btw).

Honestly if you think businesses that aren't professional sporting ones with all the associated public profile (or political parties etc, they have a similar profile) have any business knowing anything about your life outside of work hours then you have the mentality of a bloody slave!!!

They don't own your life cos they pay you a wage. If you get drunk and bum rushed at a pub after beer o'clock on a friday (provided you aren't in a work uniform) and your boss makes a fuss he's overstepping the boundaries of that relationship.

How can you see any difference between that sort of political correctness and the sort that threatens the careers of academics like whatever her name was - the one you mentioned in that other thread?

Most legit workplaces have no business injecting their noses into your life outside workplace hours.

(Unless you only consider public, professional sporting organisations to be legit workplaces in which case fair enough ... I spose.)
 

Groin guru

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 21, 2017
10,261
29,970
Destination Club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Hilarious thread.

"Ive got photo's, you haven't seen them, I'm not showing you so I know more than you do but let's not talk about it."

Classic bigfooty.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I post them and the video in here, on the Bay, on social media and then see what happens? First people complain that athletes don't have enough privacy. Now people are actively keeping things private and people are still complaining.

giphy.gif


It should be a wake-up call to both players that it appears the media doesn't give a s**t about them. Or the ambulance chasers like Barrett, McClure and co. are probably on holidays.

The reality is this thread would have been dead pages back had people not started complaining about "freedom". It's basically the LMac Tassie thread of last year all over again.

Scenario:
Son or daughter is stuffing around at university. In their final year and may not get grades good enough to get postgraduate courses. The field is highly competitive and may finish with a degree but almost zero chance of a job based on current grades. You're frustrated because they are smart and have shown a lot of promise. They promise to start knuckling down and study more. They are in their 2nd week after 6 weeks off over the semester break. Test coming up. Instead of studying over the weekend they go out drinking with friends and get kicked out of a club.

A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)
 

the flying ham

Cancelled
Dec 12, 2006
7,403
16,059
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I post them and the video in here, on the Bay, on social media and then see what happens? First people complain that athletes don't have enough privacy. Now people are actively keeping things private and people are still complaining.

giphy.gif


It should be a wake-up call to both players that it appears the media doesn't give a s**t about them. Or the ambulance chasers like Barrett, McClure and co. are probably on holidays.

The reality is this thread would have been dead pages back had people not started complaining about "freedom". It's basically the LMac Tassie thread of last year all over again.

Scenario:
Son or daughter is stuffing around at university. In their final year and may not get grades good enough to get postgraduate courses. The field is highly competitive and may finish with a degree but almost zero chance of a job based on current grades. You're frustrated because they are smart and have shown a lot of promise. They promise to start knuckling down and study more. They are in their 2nd week after 6 weeks off over the semester break. Test coming up. Instead of studying over the weekend they go out drinking with friends and get kicked out of a club.

A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)
E. I'm outraged! I heard that someone has photos of them appearing intoxicated. I haven't seen these photos but I'm still outraged nonetheless.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Groin guru

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 21, 2017
10,261
29,970
Destination Club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Its one thing to talk about professional AFL players or other elite athletes, especially ones in the public eye with associated sponsorships and all the rest. You specifically said:



You said most legit workplaces (that would include mines btw).

Honestly if you think businesses that aren't professional sporting ones with all the associated public profile (or political parties etc, they have a similar profile) have any business knowing anything about your life outside of work hours then you have the mentality of a bloody slave!!!

They don't own your life cos they pay you a wage. If you get drunk and bum rushed at a pub after beer o'clock on a friday (provided you aren't in a work uniform) and your boss makes a fuss he's overstepping the boundaries of that relationship.

How can you see any difference between that sort of political correctness and the sort that threatens the careers of academics like whatever her name was - the one you mentioned in that other thread?

Most legit workplaces have no business injecting their noses into your life outside workplace hours.

(Unless you only consider public, professional sporting organisations to be legit workplaces in which case fair enough ... I spose.)
They don't have to know (no one at the club is spying on them) but if they find out of course they would be upset. If your boss found out you got in an altercation on the weekend and kicked out of a club, of course they'd be disappointed (not you personally, jobs in general. And no not a tradie job where your boss is likely to pat you in the back). They may not say anything to you personally but they would think less of you.

Again, you're shouting at clouds at this point. My issue isn't about what they do or the club knowing every single thing. The issue is players being responsible and doing all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team (especially 1 that is on death's door AFL wise, and another that is a 1st round pick and had issues in the past). It's not my fault that you're getting so uptight and can't understand that simple premise.
 
A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)

They are adults (at uni that's a safe assumption). They are responsible for their own behaviour. That specific behaviour doesn't mean they will fail the test, nor does it mean they have failed in their attempts to study or knuckle down.

For all we know from the information you have provided they have studied hours every night for those two prior weeks and are so much more on top of their subjects that they make the judgement that can afford to let off some steam. While at the club they smiled at a cute girl and her boyfriend jumped them. The bouncers threw everyone out cos sometimes that's what bouncers do and so for no fault of their own they have been thrown out of a club while out drinking after a fortnight of hard work and studying.
 

Groin guru

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 21, 2017
10,261
29,970
Destination Club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
They are adults (at uni that's a safe assumption). They are responsible for their own behaviour. That specific behaviour doesn't mean they will fail the test, nor does it mean they have failed in their attempts to study or knuckle down.

For all we know from the information you have provided they have studied hours every night for those two prior weeks and are so much more on top of their subjects that they make the judgement that can afford to let off some steam. While at the club they smiled at a cute girl and her boyfriend jumped them. The bouncers threw everyone out cos sometimes that's what bouncers do and so for no fault of their own they have been thrown out of a club while out drinking after a fortnight of hard work and studying.
University like individual performance isn't pass/fail. Sure you can get 50%, get your degree and move on but then you're just another fish in a big sea. Just like an AFL player if you have no elite characteristics. You want them as close as you possibly can to 100.

  • Except they were drunk.
  • The establishment they were at is easy going.
  • If you are getting into an altercation you are increasing your risk of injury and/or the people around you.
  • If you're innocent you aren't pleading with the person filming to delete the footage.
  • You do not know what an elite athletic environment is like and therefore have no idea what is and isn't expected from players. Especially players that aren't where they should be at this stage in their career.
 
They don't have to know (no one at the club is spying on them) but if they find out of course they would be upset. If your boss found out you got in an altercation on the weekend and kicked out of a club, of course they'd be disappointed (not you personally, jobs in general. And no not a tradie job where your boss is likely to pat you in the back). They may not say anything to you personally but they would think less of you.

Again, you're shouting at clouds at this point. My issue isn't about what they do or the club knowing every single thing. The issue is players being responsible and doing all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team (especially 1 that is on death's door AFL wise, and another that is a 1st round pick and had issues in the past). It's not my fault that you're getting so uptight and can't understand that simple premise.

I understand that premise. You're assuming your definition of what's "all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team" is universal and that what happened that night will interfere with them achieving that.

I don't know what happened or why they got kicked out. I don't want to know.

Because its not my business. Its theirs and they certainly didn't do anything that brought the attention of the law or even excessive media scrutiny. These days its pretty hard to keep genuine bad behaviour under wraps no matter how high their footy profile and they're still professional athletes and Melbourne loves footy scandals.

We have enough depth in the side that no one is going to be guaranteed a spot if they don't perform. As a paid up member I am as much their employer as we all are the employers of govt employees (and pollies) - i'm invested in them representing the club - and i think its none of my business. I'm not disappointed in them because they don't owe me the life of a choir boy. If they fail to perform over the season i will be disappointed in them for failure to perform. That ain't now tho.

If anything they seem to be performing well given their recent history.

LMac is improving his performance in terms of endurance.

And

Over the pre season he has gone out of his way to not project the mad party image he projected this time last year. Social Media wise he doesn't emphasise it if he's having a beer, he doesn't show beers all the time and if he has one he often keeps his beer in the background (not hiding it just not emphasising it). Posters here reported that at a team meal he attended everyone drank water, no one had booze.

So he is also improving the example he sets via his public profile.

Garner knows what is at stake for him as well. If he is that careless of the future then its a good thing he's wrecking his career before we need to depend on him.

If that's actually what he is doing. I don't think its the case tho.





(Also - how do you know all that stuff about someone's potential boss? Do you think Kerry Packer - one of Australia's most successful bosses would have felt that way about his employees? I don't need an answer, just hoping you'll question some of your assumptions and certainties about the world.)
 
[QUOTE="Groin guru, post: 59055343, member: 180598]

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)[/QUOTE]
There's an old cliche.

Assumption is the mother of all * ups.

Posting hypotheticals, then limiting the possible responses to four choices and four choices only isn't really something I take too seriously.

Best to just have a laugh and look forward to an exciting 2019, imho.
 

Groin guru

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 21, 2017
10,261
29,970
Destination Club
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I understand that premise. You're assuming your definition of what's "all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team" is universal and that what happened that night will interfere with them achieving that.

I don't know what happened or why they got kicked out. I don't want to know.

Because its not my business. Its theirs and they certainly didn't do anything that brought the attention of the law or even excessive media scrutiny. These days its pretty hard to keep genuine bad behaviour under wraps no matter how high their footy profile and they're still professional athletes and Melbourne loves footy scandals.

We have enough depth in the side that no one is going to be guaranteed a spot if they don't perform. As a paid up member I am as much their employer as we all are the employers of govt employees (and pollies) - i'm invested in them representing the club - and i think its none of my business. I'm not disappointed in them because they don't owe me the life of a choir boy. If they fail to perform over the season i will be disappointed in them for failure to perform. That ain't now tho.

If anything they seem to be performing well given their recent history.

LMac is improving his performance in terms of endurance.

And

Over the pre season he has gone out of his way to not project the mad party image he projected this time last year. Social Media wise he doesn't emphasise it if he's having a beer, he doesn't show beers all the time and if he has one he often keeps his beer in the background (not hiding it just not emphasising it). Posters here reported that at a team meal he attended everyone drank water, no one had booze.

So he is also improving the example he sets via his public profile.

Garner knows what is at stake for him as well. If he is that careless of the future then its a good thing he's wrecking his career before we need to depend on him.

If that's actually what he is doing. I don't think its the case tho.

(Also - how do you know all that stuff about someone's potential boss? Do you think Kerry Packer - one of Australia's most successful bosses would have felt that way about his employees? I don't need an answer, just hoping you'll question some of your assumptions and certainties about the world.)
If you've had actual alcohol you've decreased your chances. If you've had alcohol during a modified program with a history of injuries...well I don't know what to say.

And as I've said several times in this thread - it's lucky that it hasn't reached scrutiny levels and that's likely down to one of a collection of a few variables: the media not caring enough about the players, North being a smaller club (Collingwood players would have an increased chance of hitting the spotlight), it being pre-season and most of the s**t head media types being closed for business at this time of the year, and the person taking filming not being a POS and posting it on social media or drawing too much fuss.

Like I've also said several times - I don't care, I'm disappointed but that's their choice. There will be other players coming through that want to reach their full potential and not just coast by.

Current vs. past environments. Arsene Wegner was "encroaching on players freedom when he banned alcohol and smoking in the changerooms back in 1996". Things change. Athletes have their diet's and sleep tested - do other professions? Some professional coaches still think sports medicine doesn't mean a thing, others confiscate phones post match and outlaw posting on social media until the following day. Unfair? Possibly but if playing a bad game = trolls posting s**t on twitter and you getting angry reading it = impacting your nights sleep = a fair enough reason. Players can say "get stuffed" but most understand and buy into it. Which is no different to players abiding by a no drink policy during the season if coaches ask them to.
 

Reginald0

Club Legend
Jul 30, 2012
2,055
2,533
AFL Club
North Melbourne
A lot of this utter twaddle is coming from the absolutely unprovable claim that drinking alcohol affects training performance

Personally I cannot believe that having say 8-10 drinks enuf to get lagered shall we say on a sat nite will undo the 20 hours or so of weights running etc the players do
Agree the pissed in public is not good but think the physical damage by drinking line is a crock
 

Reginald0

Club Legend
Jul 30, 2012
2,055
2,533
AFL Club
North Melbourne
A lot of this utter twaddle is coming from the absolutely unprovable claim that drinking alcohol affects training performance

Personally I cannot believe that having say 8-10 drinks enuf to get lagered shall we say on a sat nite will undo the 20 hours or so of weights running etc the players do
Agree the pissed in public is not good but think the physical damage by drinking line is a crock
 
Dec 27, 2017
24,213
53,348
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I post them and the video in here, on the Bay, on social media and then see what happens? First people complain that athletes don't have enough privacy. Now people are actively keeping things private and people are still complaining.

giphy.gif


It should be a wake-up call to both players that it appears the media doesn't give a s**t about them. Or the ambulance chasers like Barrett, McClure and co. are probably on holidays.

The reality is this thread would have been dead pages back had people not started complaining about "freedom". It's basically the LMac Tassie thread of last year all over again.

Scenario:
Son or daughter is stuffing around at university. In their final year and may not get grades good enough to get postgraduate courses. The field is highly competitive and may finish with a degree but almost zero chance of a job based on current grades. You're frustrated because they are smart and have shown a lot of promise. They promise to start knuckling down and study more. They are in their 2nd week after 6 weeks off over the semester break. Test coming up. Instead of studying over the weekend they go out drinking with friends and get kicked out of a club.

A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)

E) you’re worried but then they blitz the test and you realise that’s all that matters
 
Back