Player Watch #6: Taylor Garner - “being managed carefully”, and the virtues of wowserism

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Firstly, you don't know if the club made no issue of it, so thats moot. That it ain't in the public realm doesn't mean it hasn't been discussed.

Secondly, if players want to blow off steam they can do what they like. I ain't no puritan and during their downtime i don't care what players do, as long as it does not impact their performance when at the club or preparation for training or games. This is not where i see issue.

My 'problem' is that its these two specifically. I expect more from these two given their talent, contractual investment by the club and coming off the year they have had. Perhaps my expectations of these two well known party boys on hundreds of thousands of dollars a year is too high but was is a fact is that getting hammered, which these two like to do, impacts recovery. And both would want to have strong preseasons and better years than 18. If people see this position as problematic well, i don't know what to say.
Again, your whole argument is based on a hypothetical. Really nothing to carry on about.

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Val Keating

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Hilarious thread.

"Ive got photo's, you haven't seen them, I'm not showing you so I know more than you do but let's not talk about it."

Classic bigfooty.
Preseason at its best. Reminds me of the time Cunnington finished the time trial at the back end and people were questioning his effort. Next minute 2nd in the BnF
 

Kimbo

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Can't work out if "hysteria" or "hilarious". :cool: :D

I still think there's room for an 'I'm outraged about the "outrage" ' thread. There would be 2-3 issues each year where a whole lot of posts could be moved to said thread. Then, reviewing the thread as a whole, that would make for a hilarious read.

Meanwhile, may I say, it'd be great if Taylor Garner can recover his fitness and form and play 15+ games of excellent footy for us in 2019. I'd drink to that. :beercheers:
 
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ferball

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Correct, that sentence is exactly why you have no idea. When you've worked with elite athletes and not "I know FIFO people" maybe you could relate.

Players have a lot of freedom but that freedom gets smaller and smaller when you're injured or not performing. The freedom and scrutiny get a lot smaller if your freedom involves drinking, getting into altercations, and getting kicked out of a bar/club. Don't think of it as freedom, think of it as your chances of playing/living up to expectations from peers and coaches. Ultimately you can do what you like but if a player does and it extends outside the realm of what is expected from you well let us see how far that gets you.
Its one thing to talk about professional AFL players or other elite athletes, especially ones in the public eye with associated sponsorships and all the rest. You specifically said:

Most legit workplaces (outside of working at a fast food chain or retail) would be upset upon hearing that you had a few and got kicked out of a club.
You said most legit workplaces (that would include mines btw).

Honestly if you think businesses that aren't professional sporting ones with all the associated public profile (or political parties etc, they have a similar profile) have any business knowing anything about your life outside of work hours then you have the mentality of a bloody slave!!!

They don't own your life cos they pay you a wage. If you get drunk and bum rushed at a pub after beer o'clock on a friday (provided you aren't in a work uniform) and your boss makes a fuss he's overstepping the boundaries of that relationship.

How can you see any difference between that sort of political correctness and the sort that threatens the careers of academics like whatever her name was - the one you mentioned in that other thread?

Most legit workplaces have no business injecting their noses into your life outside workplace hours.

(Unless you only consider public, professional sporting organisations to be legit workplaces in which case fair enough ... I spose.)
 

Groin guru

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Hilarious thread.

"Ive got photo's, you haven't seen them, I'm not showing you so I know more than you do but let's not talk about it."

Classic bigfooty.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I post them and the video in here, on the Bay, on social media and then see what happens? First people complain that athletes don't have enough privacy. Now people are actively keeping things private and people are still complaining.



It should be a wake-up call to both players that it appears the media doesn't give a shit about them. Or the ambulance chasers like Barrett, McClure and co. are probably on holidays.

The reality is this thread would have been dead pages back had people not started complaining about "freedom". It's basically the LMac Tassie thread of last year all over again.

Scenario:
Son or daughter is stuffing around at university. In their final year and may not get grades good enough to get postgraduate courses. The field is highly competitive and may finish with a degree but almost zero chance of a job based on current grades. You're frustrated because they are smart and have shown a lot of promise. They promise to start knuckling down and study more. They are in their 2nd week after 6 weeks off over the semester break. Test coming up. Instead of studying over the weekend they go out drinking with friends and get kicked out of a club.

A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)
 
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I post them and the video in here, on the Bay, on social media and then see what happens? First people complain that athletes don't have enough privacy. Now people are actively keeping things private and people are still complaining.



It should be a wake-up call to both players that it appears the media doesn't give a shit about them. Or the ambulance chasers like Barrett, McClure and co. are probably on holidays.

The reality is this thread would have been dead pages back had people not started complaining about "freedom". It's basically the LMac Tassie thread of last year all over again.

Scenario:
Son or daughter is stuffing around at university. In their final year and may not get grades good enough to get postgraduate courses. The field is highly competitive and may finish with a degree but almost zero chance of a job based on current grades. You're frustrated because they are smart and have shown a lot of promise. They promise to start knuckling down and study more. They are in their 2nd week after 6 weeks off over the semester break. Test coming up. Instead of studying over the weekend they go out drinking with friends and get kicked out of a club.

A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)
E. I'm outraged! I heard that someone has photos of them appearing intoxicated. I haven't seen these photos but I'm still outraged nonetheless.

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Groin guru

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Its one thing to talk about professional AFL players or other elite athletes, especially ones in the public eye with associated sponsorships and all the rest. You specifically said:



You said most legit workplaces (that would include mines btw).

Honestly if you think businesses that aren't professional sporting ones with all the associated public profile (or political parties etc, they have a similar profile) have any business knowing anything about your life outside of work hours then you have the mentality of a bloody slave!!!

They don't own your life cos they pay you a wage. If you get drunk and bum rushed at a pub after beer o'clock on a friday (provided you aren't in a work uniform) and your boss makes a fuss he's overstepping the boundaries of that relationship.

How can you see any difference between that sort of political correctness and the sort that threatens the careers of academics like whatever her name was - the one you mentioned in that other thread?

Most legit workplaces have no business injecting their noses into your life outside workplace hours.

(Unless you only consider public, professional sporting organisations to be legit workplaces in which case fair enough ... I spose.)
They don't have to know (no one at the club is spying on them) but if they find out of course they would be upset. If your boss found out you got in an altercation on the weekend and kicked out of a club, of course they'd be disappointed (not you personally, jobs in general. And no not a tradie job where your boss is likely to pat you in the back). They may not say anything to you personally but they would think less of you.

Again, you're shouting at clouds at this point. My issue isn't about what they do or the club knowing every single thing. The issue is players being responsible and doing all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team (especially 1 that is on death's door AFL wise, and another that is a 1st round pick and had issues in the past). It's not my fault that you're getting so uptight and can't understand that simple premise.
 

ferball

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A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)
They are adults (at uni that's a safe assumption). They are responsible for their own behaviour. That specific behaviour doesn't mean they will fail the test, nor does it mean they have failed in their attempts to study or knuckle down.

For all we know from the information you have provided they have studied hours every night for those two prior weeks and are so much more on top of their subjects that they make the judgement that can afford to let off some steam. While at the club they smiled at a cute girl and her boyfriend jumped them. The bouncers threw everyone out cos sometimes that's what bouncers do and so for no fault of their own they have been thrown out of a club while out drinking after a fortnight of hard work and studying.
 

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Groin guru

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They are adults (at uni that's a safe assumption). They are responsible for their own behaviour. That specific behaviour doesn't mean they will fail the test, nor does it mean they have failed in their attempts to study or knuckle down.

For all we know from the information you have provided they have studied hours every night for those two prior weeks and are so much more on top of their subjects that they make the judgement that can afford to let off some steam. While at the club they smiled at a cute girl and her boyfriend jumped them. The bouncers threw everyone out cos sometimes that's what bouncers do and so for no fault of their own they have been thrown out of a club while out drinking after a fortnight of hard work and studying.
University like individual performance isn't pass/fail. Sure you can get 50%, get your degree and move on but then you're just another fish in a big sea. Just like an AFL player if you have no elite characteristics. You want them as close as you possibly can to 100.

  • Except they were drunk.
  • The establishment they were at is easy going.
  • If you are getting into an altercation you are increasing your risk of injury and/or the people around you.
  • If you're innocent you aren't pleading with the person filming to delete the footage.
  • You do not know what an elite athletic environment is like and therefore have no idea what is and isn't expected from players. Especially players that aren't where they should be at this stage in their career.
 

ferball

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They don't have to know (no one at the club is spying on them) but if they find out of course they would be upset. If your boss found out you got in an altercation on the weekend and kicked out of a club, of course they'd be disappointed (not you personally, jobs in general. And no not a tradie job where your boss is likely to pat you in the back). They may not say anything to you personally but they would think less of you.

Again, you're shouting at clouds at this point. My issue isn't about what they do or the club knowing every single thing. The issue is players being responsible and doing all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team (especially 1 that is on death's door AFL wise, and another that is a 1st round pick and had issues in the past). It's not my fault that you're getting so uptight and can't understand that simple premise.
I understand that premise. You're assuming your definition of what's "all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team" is universal and that what happened that night will interfere with them achieving that.

I don't know what happened or why they got kicked out. I don't want to know.

Because its not my business. Its theirs and they certainly didn't do anything that brought the attention of the law or even excessive media scrutiny. These days its pretty hard to keep genuine bad behaviour under wraps no matter how high their footy profile and they're still professional athletes and Melbourne loves footy scandals.

We have enough depth in the side that no one is going to be guaranteed a spot if they don't perform. As a paid up member I am as much their employer as we all are the employers of govt employees (and pollies) - i'm invested in them representing the club - and i think its none of my business. I'm not disappointed in them because they don't owe me the life of a choir boy. If they fail to perform over the season i will be disappointed in them for failure to perform. That ain't now tho.

If anything they seem to be performing well given their recent history.

LMac is improving his performance in terms of endurance.

And

Over the pre season he has gone out of his way to not project the mad party image he projected this time last year. Social Media wise he doesn't emphasise it if he's having a beer, he doesn't show beers all the time and if he has one he often keeps his beer in the background (not hiding it just not emphasising it). Posters here reported that at a team meal he attended everyone drank water, no one had booze.

So he is also improving the example he sets via his public profile.

Garner knows what is at stake for him as well. If he is that careless of the future then its a good thing he's wrecking his career before we need to depend on him.

If that's actually what he is doing. I don't think its the case tho.





(Also - how do you know all that stuff about someone's potential boss? Do you think Kerry Packer - one of Australia's most successful bosses would have felt that way about his employees? I don't need an answer, just hoping you'll question some of your assumptions and certainties about the world.)
 

Grogg

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[QUOTE="Groin guru, post: 59055343, member: 180598]

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)[/QUOTE]
There's an old cliche.

Assumption is the mother of all **** ups.

Posting hypotheticals, then limiting the possible responses to four choices and four choices only isn't really something I take too seriously.

Best to just have a laugh and look forward to an exciting 2019, imho.
 

Groin guru

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I understand that premise. You're assuming your definition of what's "all they can to be the best they can for themselves, their teammates, and the team" is universal and that what happened that night will interfere with them achieving that.

I don't know what happened or why they got kicked out. I don't want to know.

Because its not my business. Its theirs and they certainly didn't do anything that brought the attention of the law or even excessive media scrutiny. These days its pretty hard to keep genuine bad behaviour under wraps no matter how high their footy profile and they're still professional athletes and Melbourne loves footy scandals.

We have enough depth in the side that no one is going to be guaranteed a spot if they don't perform. As a paid up member I am as much their employer as we all are the employers of govt employees (and pollies) - i'm invested in them representing the club - and i think its none of my business. I'm not disappointed in them because they don't owe me the life of a choir boy. If they fail to perform over the season i will be disappointed in them for failure to perform. That ain't now tho.

If anything they seem to be performing well given their recent history.

LMac is improving his performance in terms of endurance.

And

Over the pre season he has gone out of his way to not project the mad party image he projected this time last year. Social Media wise he doesn't emphasise it if he's having a beer, he doesn't show beers all the time and if he has one he often keeps his beer in the background (not hiding it just not emphasising it). Posters here reported that at a team meal he attended everyone drank water, no one had booze.

So he is also improving the example he sets via his public profile.

Garner knows what is at stake for him as well. If he is that careless of the future then its a good thing he's wrecking his career before we need to depend on him.

If that's actually what he is doing. I don't think its the case tho.

(Also - how do you know all that stuff about someone's potential boss? Do you think Kerry Packer - one of Australia's most successful bosses would have felt that way about his employees? I don't need an answer, just hoping you'll question some of your assumptions and certainties about the world.)
If you've had actual alcohol you've decreased your chances. If you've had alcohol during a modified program with a history of injuries...well I don't know what to say.

And as I've said several times in this thread - it's lucky that it hasn't reached scrutiny levels and that's likely down to one of a collection of a few variables: the media not caring enough about the players, North being a smaller club (Collingwood players would have an increased chance of hitting the spotlight), it being pre-season and most of the shit head media types being closed for business at this time of the year, and the person taking filming not being a POS and posting it on social media or drawing too much fuss.

Like I've also said several times - I don't care, I'm disappointed but that's their choice. There will be other players coming through that want to reach their full potential and not just coast by.

Current vs. past environments. Arsene Wegner was "encroaching on players freedom when he banned alcohol and smoking in the changerooms back in 1996". Things change. Athletes have their diet's and sleep tested - do other professions? Some professional coaches still think sports medicine doesn't mean a thing, others confiscate phones post match and outlaw posting on social media until the following day. Unfair? Possibly but if playing a bad game = trolls posting shit on twitter and you getting angry reading it = impacting your nights sleep = a fair enough reason. Players can say "get stuffed" but most understand and buy into it. Which is no different to players abiding by a no drink policy during the season if coaches ask them to.
 

Reginald0

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A lot of this utter twaddle is coming from the absolutely unprovable claim that drinking alcohol affects training performance

Personally I cannot believe that having say 8-10 drinks enuf to get lagered shall we say on a sat nite will undo the 20 hours or so of weights running etc the players do
Agree the pissed in public is not good but think the physical damage by drinking line is a crock
 

Reginald0

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A lot of this utter twaddle is coming from the absolutely unprovable claim that drinking alcohol affects training performance

Personally I cannot believe that having say 8-10 drinks enuf to get lagered shall we say on a sat nite will undo the 20 hours or so of weights running etc the players do
Agree the pissed in public is not good but think the physical damage by drinking line is a crock
 

Val Keating

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Should I post them and the video in here, on the Bay, on social media and then see what happens? First people complain that athletes don't have enough privacy. Now people are actively keeping things private and people are still complaining.



It should be a wake-up call to both players that it appears the media doesn't give a shit about them. Or the ambulance chasers like Barrett, McClure and co. are probably on holidays.

The reality is this thread would have been dead pages back had people not started complaining about "freedom". It's basically the LMac Tassie thread of last year all over again.

Scenario:
Son or daughter is stuffing around at university. In their final year and may not get grades good enough to get postgraduate courses. The field is highly competitive and may finish with a degree but almost zero chance of a job based on current grades. You're frustrated because they are smart and have shown a lot of promise. They promise to start knuckling down and study more. They are in their 2nd week after 6 weeks off over the semester break. Test coming up. Instead of studying over the weekend they go out drinking with friends and get kicked out of a club.

A) you don't care because it's their choice
B) you don't care but you're disappointed in them
C) you're angry and want to ground them
D) it's no big deal as long as the lecturer doesn't find out and the university news don't report it

I choose (B), most in here apparently are going with (D)
E) you’re worried but then they blitz the test and you realise that’s all that matters
 

Groin guru

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A lot of this utter twaddle is coming from the absolutely unprovable claim that drinking alcohol affects training performance

Personally I cannot believe that having say 8-10 drinks enuf to get lagered shall we say on a sat nite will undo the 20 hours or so of weights running etc the players do
Agree the pissed in public is not good but think the physical damage by drinking line is a crock
Asker Jeukendrup (one of the world's experts when it comes to Sports Nutrition):

Beer in moderation (1-2) and diluted or consumed with water can help post-exercise hydration. There is a little carbohydrate in beer that can help restoration of energy stores. There is no reason not to have one beer, it will help a lot of people and athletes to relax, but we always have to keep in mind the negative effects of larger amounts of beer/alcohol.
________________________________________________

The reasoning behind 1-2 is that actually hydrating is better than not at all. It can be quite hard to get athletes to hydrate especially when you're asking them to consume ~600mL of fluid an hour during training/games. Adding sodium in the beer can be helpful. So players pour some salt in your beer and make sure you have some carbs with it.

One issue behind these studies is the red tape that typically exists behind getting athletes to drink and then do testing on them. Human ethics at research level is tough. It's why we don't know more about marijuana and performance/recovery and WADA just opts to ban it until more is known. We'd know more if it was easier to get our hands on athletes and test them. You also have to understand you can't just turn up to a sports team and say "hey can we get your players drunk and poke and prod them afterwards"
________________________________________________________________________________________
https://mental.jmir.org/2018/1/e23/

We know that sleep is vital for recovery. Well...alcohol impacts your sleep funnily enough.

The study revealed that alcohol reduced the restorative quality of sleep. Specifically, a low alcohol intake decreased the physiological recovery that sleep normally provides by 9.3%.

Even as little as one drink was shown to impair sleep quality. Moderate alcohol consumption lowered restorative sleep quality by 24%, and high alcohol intake by as much as 39.2%.

These results were similar for men and women, and alcohol consumption affected sedentary and active people alike. Interestingly, the harmful effects of alcohol were more pronounced among young people compared with seniors.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Again you are thinking in absolutes. Drinking 8-10 drinks won't undo 20 hours of hard work, but it will still hinder it vs. not drinking the 8-10 drinks.

Elite athletes are on different levels. Players have caffeine 60-90 mins before the game and at halftime because research suggests it may improve their performance by 2-3%. 2-3% can be a lot especially when you're almost at peak performance. You do things to add %, not subtract. That's just counterproductive.

But again, Why are people focusing on 1 point? There are several reasons why people were disappointed in what happened. For the love of god, it is the sum of all parts. Not just the alcohol, not just that they went out, not that they got kicked out of a bar/club. It is everything together + the fact they are 2 weeks into pre-season and had shit 2018 seasons. If you have an issue recovering and you're just getting over wrist surgery is it wise to be doing something that impacts your recovery? Worst case scenario Luke gets in a push and shove in this altercation...reinjures the wrist he just had fixed...that's an issue ("but walk outside hit by bus scenario" :drunk:)

This whole saga was designed to test me wasn't it? Well it worked. This reminds me of when God tested Abraham. I'm done. See all of you sinners in hell!!!




 

blackshadow

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A lot of this utter twaddle is coming from the absolutely unprovable claim that drinking alcohol affects training performance

Personally I cannot believe that having say 8-10 drinks enuf to get lagered shall we say on a sat nite will undo the 20 hours or so of weights running etc the players do
Agree the pissed in public is not good but think the physical damage by drinking line is a crock
You seem well versed in utter twaddle...

The effects of alcohol on training performance has been well and truly proven.

I suggest starting here for a bit of a primer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257708/

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tazaa

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So many seem to be missing the point.

Again, this isn’t an incident related issue, moreso it’s an attitude and behavioral one.
No one has done anything wrong here that requires sanctioning or club intervention.

The facts as they stand are if you are an AFL player with a 3 year contract on your head and are yet to prove yourself as a footballer, then heading out to the St.Kilda Baths every Saturday night is literally taking the piss out of yourself, the club and it’s members. Moderation doesn’t exist here folks.

Understand that really the only ones being let down here are the lads themselves because this will only fuel what could be potentially wasted careers. Their priorities are nowhere near the level needed for ultimate success.

2019 just got a whole lot more interesting and intriguing for these two.
 

Reginald0

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You seem well versed in utter twaddle...

The effects of alcohol on training performance has been well and truly proven.

I suggest starting here for a bit of a primer

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257708/

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Thank you so much

5. Conclusion
Both the affects of alcohol on human physiology and the parameters that determine athletic performance are multi-factorial and extremely complicated. A significant body of literature has established an array of adverse symptoms caused by acute alcohol ingestion. However the notion that alcohol consumption effects performance has not received enough consistent validation to advance beyond being anecdotal. Nevertheless, just because alcohol is not yet comprehensively shown to have a negative influence on performance, does not imply this review advocates its use prior to, or following competition. Indeed, the data demonstrates a severe lack of analysis on the possible detrimental action of alcohol in the recovering athlete. However, based on the available experimental evidence in cellular and rodent-models, athletes should remain wary of ingesting alcohol following intense exercise, focusing instead on effective dietary strategies proven to enhance recovery.
 
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