Past #7: Jack Ziebell [Part II] - retires post-RFC game/280gm&183gl/6yr captain - Shinboner - assaulted post-RFC game& in hospital - get well soon JZ

[shinboner magic]

Good points, he was much more balanced then his commentary during the game (loves the club and probably let his passion get ahold of him, but that’s why we love him).

He accepts the reality that this is going to take some time before we know if it’s going to be successful or not & that Jack will be given time.

Going to be fascinating.

He knows it’s not going to work, like the rest of us.
Jack is see ball /get ball type and it’ll upset our system back there.

 

[Horace]

Gee, we love to make quick decisions some of us don't we. How about giving this move a chance?

About all we and the so-called experts have seen has been one very compromised practice game. Its the equivalent of the 5 minute mark of the first quarter at best. Lots of people are getting all up and about as to how good Koschitzke is and how poor we are and of course Jack is getting crucified for having 6 goals kicked on him.

Let's just wait and see how this all looks in a couple of months time.

 

[Psicosis]

Gee, we love to make quick decisions some of us don't we. How about giving this move a chance?

About all we and the so-called experts have seen has been one very compromised practice game. Its the equivalent of the 5 minute mark of the first quarter at best. Lots of people are getting all up and about as to how good Koschitzke is and how poor we are and of course Jack is getting crucified for having 6 goals kicked on him.

Let's just wait and see how this all looks in a couple of months time.

At the end of the day, JZ playing in defence is not going to be the difference between us finishing 18th & 14th in 2021 IMO.

If it pays off, great. If it doesn’t, well at least we tried. We do not have a star young HBF* waiting in the wings who he is keeping out.

Perez is injured, and at 19 years of age the presumption that he would be better then Ziebell in 2021 is inaccurate.

 

[Ligma]

I don't get this. We have drafted for pace across the board.

We drafted Corr and Young in, both very quick as well as Patrick Walker who is no slouch and have Perez, both athletic runners that can kick beautifully and work up to the wing. I believe R2 is also getting minutes back there due to his pace and toughness.

Jack brings others skills with his long kicking, leadership and intercept marking to give it off and clear the ball.

Literally lol one of if not the most prevalent points from our drafting was that we brought in speed.

Exactly we also did bring un Menadue who is also fast of HB just like Corr, Young, P Walker.

So I don’t really understand the claim that we have gone backwards in our speed??


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[King Corey]

Thinking back over Jack's career, where has it not taken the trajectory it could've?

In terms of heart and fronting up as a leader Jack has exceeded expectations.

But he was a top 10 pick in a strong draft. Compared variably to Voss and Buckley pre-draft.

While Cunnington has gone on to be in AA conversations and won multiple B&Fs, Jack hasn't really troubled either.

This isn't meant to sling mud at Jack. He's bled for the club and played plenty of good footy but the way he was tracking in his first preseason then starting to show some solid numbers by years 3-4 - it hasn't really gone anywhere meangingful on field.

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

 

[muttley45]

Thinking back over Jack's career, where has it not taken the trajectory it could've?

In terms of heart and fronting up as a leader Jack has exceeded expectations.

But he was a top 10 pick in a strong draft. Compared variably to Voss and Buckley pre-draft.

While Cunnington has gone on to be in AA conversations and won multiple B&Fs, Jack hasn't really troubled either.

This isn't meant to sling mud at Jack. He's bled for the club and played plenty of good footy but the way he was tracking in his first preseason then starting to show some solid numbers by years 3-4 - it hasn't really gone anywhere meangingful on field.

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

Unfortunately Jack was born in the wrong era, i have no doubt he would have been great in the 90's team, coached by Pagan, and alongside Stevo, Arch, Micky et al

 

[Snake_Baker]

Unfortunately Jack was born in the wrong era, i have no doubt he would have been great in the 90's team, coached by Pagan, and alongside Stevo, Arch, Micky et al

I reckon to some extent this is correct mate.

Let's never forget that the AFL basically introduced rules to quell his human wrecking ball technique, and it affected his natural game significantly.

 

[DesertRoo]

Unfortunately Jack was born in the wrong era, i have no doubt he would have been great in the 90's team, coached by Pagan, and alongside Stevo, Arch, Micky et al

I’m of the opinion it was 100% list management, coaching and development.

Jack never had the physiology to play as a full time mid gathering it 30 times week at AFL level but he was the best option of what we had.

 

[Passmore]

Thinking back over Jack's career, where has it not taken the trajectory it could've?

In terms of heart and fronting up as a leader Jack has exceeded expectations.

But he was a top 10 pick in a strong draft. Compared variably to Voss and Buckley pre-draft.

While Cunnington has gone on to be in AA conversations and won multiple B&Fs, Jack hasn't really troubled either.

This isn't meant to sling mud at Jack. He's bled for the club and played plenty of good footy but the way he was tracking in his first preseason then starting to show some solid numbers by years 3-4 - it hasn't really gone anywhere meangingful on field.

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

When Cunners established himself back in 2013, I was salivating at the though of him and Jack alternating between mid/deep forward on a 70/30 split.

 

[roos_fanatic08]

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

Nope. It's purely his athleticism, tank and decision making that has held him back from taking his game to another level.

As the injuries mounted Jack has got less and less agile and in my opinion he has lost a bit of speed across the journey. That coupled with his inability to improve his tank saw him not being able to run in the midfield for enough minutes (for a modern day midfielder).

 

[Mordecai]

Nope. It's purely his athleticism, tank and decision making that has held him back from taking his game to another level.

As the injuries mounted Jack has got less and less agile and in my opinion he has lost a bit of speed across the journey. That coupled with his inability to improve his tank saw him not being able to run in the midfield for enough minutes (for a modern day midfielder).

One of the saddest careers I've seen at North. Come in brimming with potential but his style of play just doesn't work today.

 

[shimaburnsgrieg]

In JZ's defence 2 broken legs in his late teenage years were significant detractors for him as were subsequent changes to rules which didn't allow his physical style of play to be rewarded.

However JZ's hack style of kicking out of the middle, turnovers and choking in front of goal reside outside of the 'bad luck' category.

 

[Liam Boy]

Unfortunately Jack was born in the wrong era, i have no doubt he would have been great in the 90's team, coached by Pagan, and alongside Stevo, Arch, Micky et al

i think he's also just unlucky he didn't grow 6-7 more centimetres. could've been a top 10 key forward if he had that

 

[Snake_Baker]

Gee, we love to make quick decisions some of us don't we. How about giving this move a chance?

Some of them leave junkies for dead Horrie.

 

[AnEmptyChair]

The whole idea that the rule changes crippled him is nonsense. Every player had to adapt, why couldn't he?

I don't think you can underplay the significance of those broken legs on his early attempts to build his fitness base and early development. From there, his aerobic capacity was really only ever the bare minimum requirement for an AFL footballer, and frankly, sometimes below that.

That fitness base, as well as the fact that he never improved some significant weaknesses RE composure with ball in hand and poor decision making in traffic, are the two defining reasons for why he never made it as a top 50, maybe top 100, AFL player as a midfielder. It's got nothing to do with rule changes. He just never improved some glaring weaknesses

He showed the most ability as a medium forward imo and for a season or two there played his best footy, probably pushing himself close to the top 50 players in the league. But again, injuries played their part in crippling the momentum he was building there as well as some average, at best, kicking for goal. In 2018, he kicked 35.29. That's quite a good season for the role he was playing. He followed it up with 24.16 in a side that really struggled until Shaw came in. And I might be wrong here, but IIRC there were times he was playing through injury when he really should have sat out during those two years.

When you look at it objectively, how many top 3 finished in the Syd Barker has he had? Maybe one or two? And he's never really been close to a top 50 AFL player. Maybe in 2018, but that's it. It's hard to look at it as a whole and not be a little disappointed.

But in saying all that, all the reports from inside the club are that he's an outstanding leader and I don't think you can underestimate the heart and passion with which he's represented this club every single time he's crossed the white line. So, while the playing side of it and accolades received might be underwhelming considering where he started, I'm still grateful and proud of everything that he's done for the footy club.

 

[Devington]

Thinking back over Jack's career, where has it not taken the trajectory it could've?

In terms of heart and fronting up as a leader Jack has exceeded expectations.

But he was a top 10 pick in a strong draft. Compared variably to Voss and Buckley pre-draft.

While Cunnington has gone on to be in AA conversations and won multiple B&Fs, Jack hasn't really troubled either.

This isn't meant to sling mud at Jack. He's bled for the club and played plenty of good footy but the way he was tracking in his first preseason then starting to show some solid numbers by years 3-4 - it hasn't really gone anywhere meangingful on field.

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

Injuries, genetics, and the changing of football eras.

Has had to alter his play style and body type to suit the meta that the coaches and Rules Commitee have created, and it hasn't gone particularly well. Arguably he has some skill/decision making deficiencies but they pale in comparison compared to everything else IMO.

 

[barnrokn]

Unfortunately Jack was born in the wrong era, i have no doubt he would have been great in the 90's team, coached by Pagan, and alongside Stevo, Arch, Micky et al

Born to play in mud heaps

 

[barnrokn]

Some of them leave junkies for dead Horrie.

 

[Colbys Boots]

i think he's also just unlucky he didn't grow 6-7 more centimetres. could've been a top 10 key forward if he had that

Jack is 1.88m so another 6cm would have placed him at the same height as Leigh Brown, who also always seemed like a few cm short of the perfect size for a kpp. In fact, they both probably lacked the burst speed and leap to be a good full forward.

 

[Colbys Boots]

Born to play in mud heaps

His father was a mudder.

 

[Themanbun]

Thinking back over Jack's career, where has it not taken the trajectory it could've?

In terms of heart and fronting up as a leader Jack has exceeded expectations.

But he was a top 10 pick in a strong draft. Compared variably to Voss and Buckley pre-draft.

While Cunnington has gone on to be in AA conversations and won multiple B&Fs, Jack hasn't really troubled either.

This isn't meant to sling mud at Jack. He's bled for the club and played plenty of good footy but the way he was tracking in his first preseason then starting to show some solid numbers by years 3-4 - it hasn't really gone anywhere meangingful on field.

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

I remember that Geelong game where he single handedly put a bullet in them, nailing that shot from 50 on the boundary. I thought this is what we can get used to for the next five years. But it didn't eventuate.

For him, he has been versatile and often got shifted around to suit the team's needs. When he got shifted to the forwardline it was probably about that time in his career where he needed to take that next step with his tank to move to that next rung as a midfielder.

The emergence of Cunnington as our best in and under midfielder, possibly ever, hampered him a lot as well. Playing them both in the same midfield meant that Jack was often second, rather than first posession.

If reaching his personal career heights was his foremost consideration, he should have requested a trade years ago to a team who needed his in and under work. But he put North Melbourne first, because he bleeds for this club, and became a role player and leader instead.

 

[Its a Process]

Playing at Docklands might have something to do with it.

You can have slower defenders but you also need the following:
- elite pressure at the source to stifle the quality of ball movement
- exceptional off ball running from your mids/forwards
- a very smart back 6/7 who help each other and rarely allow their slower players to get exposed 1 vs 1
- It probably helps if they are all brave in the air as well.

We probably have the last one covered, not sure about the other 3.

 

[7577969923]

In JZ's defence 2 broken legs in his late teenage years were significant detractors for him as were subsequent changes to rules which didn't allow his physical style of play to be rewarded.

However JZ's hack style of kicking out of the middle, turnovers and choking in front of goal reside outside of the 'bad luck' category.

Yep. If he didn't get the yips in front of goal he would still be an extremely valuable player. Has the craft and smarts to get the ball in the forward line enough to be a 35 goal a year forward as well as providing some midfield minutes when needed. The real shame is I remember him being interviewed and being asked questions about his set shot kicking because it was so accurate.

 

[Event Horizon]

Thinking back over Jack's career, where has it not taken the trajectory it could've?

In terms of heart and fronting up as a leader Jack has exceeded expectations.

But he was a top 10 pick in a strong draft. Compared variably to Voss and Buckley pre-draft.

While Cunnington has gone on to be in AA conversations and won multiple B&Fs, Jack hasn't really troubled either.

This isn't meant to sling mud at Jack. He's bled for the club and played plenty of good footy but the way he was tracking in his first preseason then starting to show some solid numbers by years 3-4 - it hasn't really gone anywhere meangingful on field.

Was it coaching? Being too versatile?

I always like to compare first round picks with someone who went soon after, or someone we were supposedly interested in. With Jack, the comparison is with Sidebottom, given we were rumoured to be drafting him, until last minute IIRC Freo took Stephen Hill and Ziebell slid to us. Would Sidebottom have been a better pick? One would have to say yes I think.

 

[King Corey]

I always like to compare first round picks with someone who went soon after, or someone we were supposedly interested in. With Jack, the comparison is with Sidebottom, given we were rumoured to be drafting him, until last minute IIRC Freo took Stephen Hill and Ziebell slid to us. Would Sidebottom have been a better pick? One would have to say yes I think.

I sometimes see it like that but also the reverse.

I can picture Jack joining that team with Swan, Pendlebury, Thomas et al and really finding his place.

Conversely I can picture Steele coming to Arden Street and teasing with good skills and good game but never really pushing it to the next level, like another Shaun Atley.