7News: Major Review into the AFL, independent of the AFL & the 18 Clubs, will start early 2021.

[eastfreo75]

You say you're not anti Victorian, but all your solutions for 'fairness' target Vic clubs...

As for being starved for playing Richmond in Perth...As with so many anti-Vic claims, you might want to check your facts.
Yes, this year was an aberration (I trust you'll agree there were extenuating circumstances), but even with that...2018,2016,2014, 2013, 2011, 2009, 2008, 2007,2006, 2004, 2003, 2001....it's still 12 times in 20 years, and 2020 was the first time in that period we'd gone 2 years without playing you there...How many are you expecting for 'fairness'? BTW. In contrast, we've only played you 8 times on our home ground.


I'd also note that taking away the big Vic games...The AFL is the one that makes money from those...take those away, and how is the AFL going to pay for the money they pump into other states? It's not like WA puts much into AFL coffers after all (indeed, the AFL puts more money into the WAFC that the WA clubs do).

AFL underfund WA footy and actually West Coast make up the difference with royalty payments and at the time rent at Subiaco. Fremantle also did the same thing but the money was less.

No Victorian team pays money to fund Victorian Football but West Coast and Fremantle does.

About the WAFC

www.wafootball.com.au

My issue is that my club Fremantle gets less funding than any of the Victorian clubs does over the last ten years plus we have to pay royalties to the WAFC.

That under funding of WA footy robs both WA clubs.

Yes, both WA add to the overall funding for Football, but not directly to the AFL.

 

[nick1408]

Not necessarily.

If you were start an AFL from scratch, how many Victorian teams would you have in an 18 team competition?

Personally I'm not convinced we have enough quality players for an 18 team comp. Ideally reduce to 16 teams & play a fairer 30 game home & away season with bigger squads limiting the number of games for each player to enforce rotations.

7 x VIC
2 x WA
2 x SA
2 x NSW
2 x QLD
1 x TAS

If you were creating the AFL from scratch today I think you'd probably have more teams in NSW like the A-League attempted due to the population.

The problem with rationalising clubs now is it all operates on a cycle. 30 years ago Hawthorn was merging with Melbourne, Richmond was on its knees both financially and competitively, Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon were on top. 20 years ago Richmond and Hawthorn had sorted their finances but Hawthorn had slipped down the ladder, Carlton entered one of their darkest periods and Essendon was on top (sorry Collingwood - I didn't check your competitiveness and I can't remember). 10 years ago Richmond was still poor, Hawthorn was on top, Carlton were middling to bottom and Essendon was still competitive. The cycle has now turned. If Richmond had been booted 30, 20 or even 10 years ago you lose Victoria's highest membership base (and thus money into the game). In fact, if any of these clubs were booted in their poor times there is a hell of a lot of money out of the game. That would be to no-one's benefit.

What's to say North Melbourne couldn't turn themselves around into a financially stable club? They were more than financially stable when they were paying players to come from WA and SA in the 70's. St Kilda has had a poor run at it but had successful periods throughout (although hasn't culminated in a Premiership), Peter Gordon has turned the dogs around successfully. They even gave up the Footscray name but are still seen as the team from the Western suburbs. From memory Melbourne have been more or less financially viable even if they haven't been competitive.

One club was rationalised. There were a lot of factors involved (Roylion has explained this ad nauseam and I'm sure he will correct me) but some factors included poor on field performance, poor finances (both factors affecting Richmond shortly prior to the Lions being booted) and no home base/ground (Richmond still had Punt Road). Right now I see no club (Victoria or interstate) that is in the same dire straits Fitzroy was in.

I'd love a full home and away season. With a lot of difficulty I could see it possibly happening with a 34 game season but there is a lot of caveats (bigger list sizes, more grounds available/built).

To circle back around to my original sentence; if I was starting the AFL from scratch I'd be doing it with all the state leagues setup under the AFL banner, not their individual state banners. I'd have each league pushing for the common goal of the top tier being the biggest and best sporting competition in Australia. I may even steal from the overseas soccer crowd and create some sort of promotion/relegation system. Obvisually none of this can happen now. There is too much history and too many vested interest to undo any of this and it goes against what we as Australians have known WAFL/SANFL/VFL/AFL football to be.

 

[eastfreo75]

If you were creating the AFL from scratch today I think you'd probably have more teams in NSW like the A-League attempted due to the population.

The problem with rationalising clubs now is it all operates on a cycle. 30 years ago Hawthorn was merging with Melbourne, Richmond was on its knees both financially and competitively, Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon were on top. 20 years ago Richmond and Hawthorn had sorted their finances but Hawthorn had slipped down the ladder, Carlton entered one of their darkest periods and Essendon was on top (sorry Collingwood - I didn't check your competitiveness and I can't remember). 10 years ago Richmond was still poor, Hawthorn was on top, Carlton were middling to bottom and Essendon was still competitive. The cycle has now turned. If Richmond had been booted 30, 20 or even 10 years ago you lose Victoria's highest membership base (and thus money into the game). In fact, if any of these clubs were booted in their poor times there is a hell of a lot of money out of the game. That would be to no-one's benefit.

What's to say North Melbourne couldn't turn themselves around into a financially stable club? They were more than financially stable when they were paying players to come from WA and SA in the 70's. St Kilda has had a poor run at it but had successful periods throughout (although hasn't culminated in a Premiership), Peter Gordon has turned the dogs around successfully. They even gave up the Footscray name but are still seen as the team from the Western suburbs. From memory Melbourne have been more or less financially viable even if they haven't been competitive.

One club was rationalised. There were a lot of factors involved (Roylion has explained this ad nauseam and I'm sure he will correct me) but some factors included poor on field performance, poor finances (both factors affecting Richmond shortly prior to the Lions being booted) and no home base/ground (Richmond still had Punt Road). Right now I see no club (Victoria or interstate) that is in the same dire straits Fitzroy was in.

I'd love a full home and away season. With a lot of difficulty I could see it possibly happening with a 34 game season but there is a lot of caveats (bigger list sizes, more grounds available/built).

To circle back around to my original sentence; if I was starting the AFL from scratch I'd be doing it with all the state leagues setup under the AFL banner, not their individual state banners. I'd have each league pushing for the common goal of the top tier being the biggest and best sporting competition in Australia. I may even steal from the overseas soccer crowd and create some sort of promotion/relegation system. Obvisually none of this can happen now. There is too much history and too many vested interest to undo any of this and it goes against what we as Australians have known WAFL/SANFL/VFL/AFL football to be.

We have what we have and no point going back.

Destroying or merging teams isn't the answer.

Playing the grand final in Brisbane was a success and the game in Queensland took a huge step.

Victorians want to hold onto to their tradition of the grand final in Victoria but for the good of the game, it should be shared around.

If we have a grand final in Sydney will would increase the pie and therefore, assist supporting all clubs.

 

[Kwality]

The issue for North Melbourne is a lack of fan base.

It will always be a struggle for the Roos.

Playing games at Docklands is a disadvantage ie injuries (ground conditions) and the game style is very different at the MCG. Richmond struggled at Docklands but are awesome at the G.

IF success brings fans, it failed North post the 90s.

 

[Kwality]

If you were creating the AFL from scratch today I think you'd probably have more teams in NSW like the A-League attempted due to the population.

The problem with rationalising clubs now is it all operates on a cycle. 30 years ago Hawthorn was merging with Melbourne, Richmond was on its knees both financially and competitively, Carlton, Collingwood and Essendon were on top. 20 years ago Richmond and Hawthorn had sorted their finances but Hawthorn had slipped down the ladder, Carlton entered one of their darkest periods and Essendon was on top (sorry Collingwood - I didn't check your competitiveness and I can't remember). 10 years ago Richmond was still poor, Hawthorn was on top, Carlton were middling to bottom and Essendon was still competitive. The cycle has now turned. If Richmond had been booted 30, 20 or even 10 years ago you lose Victoria's highest membership base (and thus money into the game). In fact, if any of these clubs were booted in their poor times there is a hell of a lot of money out of the game. That would be to no-one's benefit.

What's to say North Melbourne couldn't turn themselves around into a financially stable club? They were more than financially stable when they were paying players to come from WA and SA in the 70's. St Kilda has had a poor run at it but had successful periods throughout (although hasn't culminated in a Premiership), Peter Gordon has turned the dogs around successfully. They even gave up the Footscray name but are still seen as the team from the Western suburbs. From memory Melbourne have been more or less financially viable even if they haven't been competitive.

One club was rationalised. There were a lot of factors involved (Roylion has explained this ad nauseam and I'm sure he will correct me) but some factors included poor on field performance, poor finances (both factors affecting Richmond shortly prior to the Lions being booted) and no home base/ground (Richmond still had Punt Road). Right now I see no club (Victoria or interstate) that is in the same dire straits Fitzroy was in.

I'd love a full home and away season. With a lot of difficulty I could see it possibly happening with a 34 game season but there is a lot of caveats (bigger list sizes, more grounds available/built).

To circle back around to my original sentence; if I was starting the AFL from scratch I'd be doing it with all the state leagues setup under the AFL banner, not their individual state banners. I'd have each league pushing for the common goal of the top tier being the biggest and best sporting competition in Australia. I may even steal from the overseas soccer crowd and create some sort of promotion/relegation system. Obvisually none of this can happen now. There is too much history and too many vested interest to undo any of this and it goes against what we as Australians have known WAFL/SANFL/VFL/AFL football to be.

Aus doesnt have the population to support any form of promotion/relegation.
Maybe it could work in Melbourne?

 

[nick1408]

IF success brings fans, it failed North post the 90s.

Another way to look at it is Melbourne has no capacity for growth. I'm not saying remove clubs, I'm saying there is no more room (and I think we can all agree on that).

 

[nick1408]

Aus doesnt have the population to support any form of promotion/relegation.
Maybe it could work in Melbourne?

You couldn't do it now anyway. Back when the various leagues all started travel was the biggest issue. Now there are a lot of other factors preventing it. I don't think population is an issue though - there are a lot smaller countries (population wise) that support promotion and relegation.

I threw it up as a hypothetical of what I would do it an ideal world but it just isn't a possibility.

 

[eastfreo75]

IF success brings fans, it failed North post the 90s.

Disagree that success brings fans and especially in Australia. People usually don't jump ships and most people follow their parents teams.

Collingwood has a huge following due to doing work in rural areas around the turn of the 20th century. As urbanisation occurred and people moved to the City, Magpies fan based increased.

Richmond for thirty years had no success but had more fans than the majority of Victorian teams.

West Coast were first in and had the state for 7 years before the Dockers. Even if Fremantle was set up well from the start, the Eagles will always have more numbers.

Only Hawthorn has increased their numbers due to success, playing in Tasmania and being located in the geographical centre of Melbourne.

Even, Melbourne has more numbers than North Melbourne.

North Melbourne has done a lot of things right but still don't have the fans.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Another way to look at it is Melbourne has no capacity for growth. I'm not saying remove clubs, I'm saying there is no more room (and I think we can all agree on that).

No more room in Melbourne?

Melbourne is the fastest growing city in Australia, go figure.

 

[74561347]

Intelligently dishonesty.

FA cup is the only comparable in the world.

Plus, the top teams don’t give a rats ass about the FA.

the FA cup is not comparable.

the only team that plays home matches at wembley is england. no club plays there.

 

[eastfreo75]

No more room in Melbourne?

Melbourne is the fastest growing city in Australia, go figure.

A lot of migration from Asia and most don't care for sport except cricket.

If a team is smart, they should tap into that community.

North Melbourne could play a game in India and maybe have a rookie list spot for an Indian.

 

[Carringbush2010]

What is different to WA & SA. It didnt/wont happen overnight & its at least a 10 year journey. There were plenty who werent accepting it, but the love of the game at the highest level won through.

Yeah but you've still got Subi, vic fans will unlikely keep their clubs if they're folded /merged / relocated.

When the market is prepared to lose those fans then it may happen, until then it won't.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The issue for North Melbourne is a lack of fan base.

Somewhere over the range of 200k.

 

[Papa G]

No more room in Melbourne?

Melbourne is the fastest growing city in Australia, go figure.

And it's made * all difference to many clubs supporter base. I'm so tired of this argument. Malbun's the fastest growing city blah blah. Clubs like North and Melbourne were getting 15k to games 30 years ago and they are getting 15k to games now. The numbers don't lie. They still have to sell games to other places because they can't draw a decent crowd unless they are playing a derby match. They suffer mainly because they don't own the hearts and minds of a big enough support or geographical base.

 

[LoungeLizard]

And it's made fu** all difference to many clubs supporter base. I'm so tired of this argument. Malbun's the fastest growing city blah blah. Clubs like North and Melbourne were getting 15k to games 30 years ago and they are getting 15k to games now. The numbers don't lie. They still have to sell games to other places because they can't draw a decent crowd unless they are playing a derby match. They suffer mainly because they don't own the hearts and minds of a big enough support or geographical base.

Thick as a brick.

Go read what i replied to.

Didn't Port sell games to China, China, what's that about?

 

[Papa G]

Thick as a brick.

Go read what i replied to.

Didn't Port sell games to China, China, what's that about?

No. Gold Coast and St Kilda sold games to China.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Clubs like North and Melbourne were getting 15k to games 30 years ago and they are getting 15k to games now.

Gotta link for that?

 

[LoungeLizard]

No. Gold Coast and St Kilda sold games to China.

Oh that's right Gold Coast got the flick because poor Port didn't like them wearing their home colours to their home game.

 

[Kwality]

Yeah but you've still got Subi, vic fans will unlikely keep their clubs if they're folded /merged / relocated.

When the market is prepared to lose those fans then it may happen, until then it won't.

There were plenty in WA that didnt want it to happen. For most fans it was a time of uncertainty. There is always opposition to change.
Leaders lead, in this case Pridham.

 

[eastfreo75]

Somewhere over the range of 200k.

2019 AFL Crowds and Match Attendances

2019 AFL match attendances. Includes current and historical data and statistics by team.

www.footywire.com

In 2019, they had only an average crowd of 20,000. Only the Suns and Giants had less.

 

[Roylion]

Clubs like North and Melbourne were getting 15k to games 30 years ago and they are getting 15k to games now. The numbers don't lie.

Maybe the numbers don't lie.

2019
North Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 27,429
North Melbourne average attendance (home): 20,807
Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 32,672
Melbourne average attendance (home): 28,968

1989 (30 years ago)
North Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 17,758
North Melbourne average attendance (home): 19,275
Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 25,859
Melbourne average attendance (home): 30,881

Source: https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/yearly.html

 

[eastfreo75]

Maybe the numbers don't lie.

2019
North Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 27,429
North Melbourne average attendance (home): 20,807
Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 32,672
Melbourne average attendance (home): 28,968

1989 (30 years ago)
North Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 17,758
North Melbourne average attendance (home): 19,275
Melbourne average attendance (home and away): 25,859
Melbourne average attendance (home): 30,881

Source: https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/yearly.html

I love you used 1989.

A bit of clever accounting.

 

[Roylion]

I love you used 1989.

A bit of clever accounting.

He did say 30 years ago. And I didn't use 2020 for obvious reasons.

 

[The_Wookie]

No. Gold Coast and St Kilda sold games to China.

sure thats one way to interpret Ports China Strategy.

 

[Carringbush2010]

2019 AFL Crowds and Match Attendances

2019 AFL match attendances. Includes current and historical data and statistics by team.

www.footywire.com

In 2019, they had only an average crowd of 20,000. Only the Suns and Giants had less.

See post #571