7News: Major Review into the AFL, independent of the AFL & the 18 Clubs, will start early 2021.

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Papa G

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 13, 2006
25,493
51,910
The Bitter End
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Of their 11 home games, most of the the smaller Melbourne clubs will have to put up with one or two home games against bigger victorian clubs, the rest are games against other low drawing clubs or non victorian sides at Docklands.
Complete crap. In 2019, Melbourne, North and the Dogs all got 4 home games against the 6 bigger Vic clubs. Saints got 3.

Bulldogs also got home derbies against North and Melbourne as well as home games against Brisbane and Sydney, clubs with reasonable legacy support in Melbourne. That's 6 derby home games and 2 with significant away support.

Saints got Melbourne and Dogs plus Brisbane.

North got Syd and Brisbane at home and sold North and Melbourne to Tasmania.

Melbourne got Saints and Sydney.

If we compare that to a "looked after club" like yours, in 2019 Carlton got only 2 home games against the other 5 big Vic clubs, played all the small Vic clubs as well as Brisbane and Sydney. So 6 derby games plus Sydney/Brisbane.

So Carlton actually got less home games against the bigger Vic sides than any of the small 4. Interesting huh?
 

greatwhiteshark

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2007
11,782
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Perth
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West Coast
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There are swings and roundabouts. It's the total revenue and costs.

Both West Coast and Fremantle paid "rent" for Subiaco and Optus Oval. In fact, both stadiums were/are CENTRALISED. Then you add WAFC royalties.

While the AFL pays for flights and accommodation when travelling, interstate teams do have larger costs.

Most of the Victorian clubs have pokies which is not available to both WA clubs. In 2019, Carlton made a profit of $3.5m from their Social club/pokies.

North Melbourne gets $3m to play 4 games against lower pulling games mostly interstate teams and Hawthorn $4m for 4 games. Melbourne, and Footscray also sell games as well.

North Melbourne have the grand final breakfast which isn't available to any non Victorian team.

Richmond, Hawthorn, and Collingwood all get the benefit of playing in a 100,000 stadium which is the grand final is played.

AFL made it clear that the AFL funding was based equalisation, yet Richmond and Collingwood make massive profits. Both teams get more than the Dockers.

My point is that Fremantle should receive the same funding as the big Victorian clubs.
Fremantle should be swimming in money just as West Coast are, you have a large following with high membership costs. I have no idea why Fremantle Woukd ever struggle with money.
The royalty they pay is a dividend to their owners who are the WAFC, it’s not a nice gesture it’s just normal business practice. I the WAFC should be taking a hell of a lot more from both clubs and feeding much more to the WAFL comp.
The WAFC run football in WA not the AFL, and we should think ourselves lucky this is the case and that it stays this way. If the AFL did run WA football yes the distributions would be higher or different.
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Jul 2, 2010
33,461
31,232
Scamander
AFL Club
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There are swings and roundabouts. It's the total revenue and costs.


AFL made it clear that the AFL funding was based equalisation, yet Richmond and Collingwood make massive profits. Both teams get more than the Dockers.
AFL funding has never just been about equalisation.

You need to pay more attention to the funding announcements. There are literally disbursements clubs are entitled to - the stadium disbursements are contractual and not negotiable - the league cant refuse to pay the clubs money they are owed.

Theres equal and disequal funding - disequal funding is designed to address the AFLs acknowledged deficiencies when it comes to fixturing and stadium arrangements.

My point is that Fremantle should receive the same funding as the big Victorian clubs.
My point is thats never going to happen unless Fremantle move their home games to Victoria or Fremantle start struggling financially.
 

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The_Wookie

Queenslander
Jul 2, 2010
33,461
31,232
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AFL Club
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Complete crap. In 2019, Melbourne, North and the Dogs all got 4 home games against the 6 bigger Vic clubs. Saints got 3.
Yes because this is all sorted in a single year or two and not the product of 20-3o years of AFL policy. Remembering that the league changed how it does fixturing to be somewhat fairer and more competitive about 3 years ago.

Bulldogs also got home derbies against North and Melbourne as well as home games against Brisbane and Sydney, clubs with reasonable legacy support in Melbourne. That's 6 derby home games and 2 with significant away support.

Saints got Melbourne and Dogs plus Brisbane.

North got Syd and Brisbane at home and sold North and Melbourne to Tasmania.

Melbourne got Saints and Sydney.

If we compare that to a "looked after club" like yours, in 2019 Carlton got only 2 home games against the other 5 big Vic clubs, played all the small Vic clubs as well as Brisbane and Sydney. So 6 derby games plus Sydney/Brisbane.

So Carlton actually got less home games against the bigger Vic sides than any of the small 4. Interesting huh?
Carlton have always been a bigger club - helped by AFL policy, the fact it could get a stadium deal at Docklands - conveniently where its Club CEO had been the Docklands CEO, and helped by its premiership record and generational support that resulted.
 

BringBackTorps

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2017
2,320
1,418
AFL Club
GWS
1.
The WAFC run football in WA not the AFL, and we should think ourselves lucky[?] this is the case and that it stays this way. If the AFL did run WA football yes the distributions would be higher or different.
The WAFC have done a very poor job promoting female GR Club AF- both on a per capita basis, & on raw nos.
Unlike WA obviously, Qld. is RL heartland, yet it shames WA. Until 2017, & start of the AFLW, Qld. had more regd. GR female comp. players than Vic.- & obliterated WA female club nos.

The AFL have done a much better job- eg in RL heartlands of Newcastle/Hunter, & Wollongong/Illawarra, they, respectively, in 2018 had 16 a & 11 adult female club comp. teams! (Both had nil in 2015).
In Sydney, female GR club AF is thriving, with thousands of regd. female Club players in 2020.
(The AFL directly controls & funds all GR areas in Aust. except WA & SA).

(See my post#964; & refer also to aflsj.com.au etc. links, containing regd. comp. teams).





2. The smaller (&, logically, there will always be some clubs smaller than average- which does not connote anything wrong, undesirable, or a failure for them being in the AFL) clubs NMFC (which courageously decided to abstain from vile poker machine profits, on moral grounds), Footscray, & St Kilda were forced by the AFL to move to DS- so had zero negotiating strength with the rapacious DS owners.
They, consequently, received from DS the worst stadium deals, since the 1880's, of any VFA/VFL/ AFL clubs ever!

NMFC Chairman J. Brayshaw was reported as saying, in 2015 (& supported by Footscray & St Kilda officials) re DS

"...labelled the arrangements as the worst stadium deal in the history of world sport".
(The AFL has never challenged or refuted Brayshaw's etc. claims).

Details in this link below.
(Scroll to my post#56; & many other corroborating posts in that Thread).
 
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greatwhiteshark

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2007
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Perth
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1.

The WAFC have done a very poor job promoting female GR Club AF- both on a per capita basis, & on raw nos.
Unlike WA obviously, Qld. is RL heartland, it shames WA. Until 2017, & start of the AFLW, Qld. had more regd. GR female comp. players than Vic.- & obliterated WA female club nos.

The AFL have done a much better job- in RL heartlands of Newcastle/Hunter, & Wollongong/Illawarra, these areas in 2018 had c. 18 a & c.13 adult female club comp. teams!
In Sydney, female GR club AF is thriving, with thousands of regd. female Club players in 2020.
(The AFL directly controls & funds all GR areas in Aust. except WA & SA).



2. The smaller (&, logically, there will always be some clubs smaller than average- which does not connote anything wrong, undesirable, or a failure being in the AFL) clubs NMFC (which courageously decided to abstain from vile poker machine profits, on moral grounds), Footscray, & St Kilda were forced by the AFL to move to DS- so had zero negotiating strength with the DS owners.
They, consequently, received from DS the worst stadium deals, since the 1880's, of any VFA/VFL/ AFL club ever.

NMFC Chairman J. Brayshaw said, in 2015 (& supported by NMFC & St Kilda officials)

re DS"...labelled the arrangements as the worst stadium deal in the history of world sport".

Details in this link below

(Scroll to my post#56 below; & many other corroborating posts in that Thread).
Girls footy is growing just as it is everywhere else. It is one priority but not the only one and the WAFC have far bigger things to sort than AFLW. Like maintaining the WAFL as a powerful second tier comp which the AFL would ignore. Doing something about why boys are dropping out of the game between ages 12-17 at an alarming rate. Footy is not all roses as the AFL paints in to be as you know. Clubs all over Australia are doing it hard At all levels.
There is many different areas people need to look after.
 

greatwhiteshark

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2007
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So again, where's the overwhelming WA fans that were opposed to leaving the wafl?
Not many of us mate. I support both but as you know most deserted the WAFL. I am a 40 year member of West Perth and they are my footy priority. I follow the Eagles strongly also. Not many of us around though.
I must say though that there was thousands that did try and stick initially but it was the media who deserted first, and once theWAFL was no longer mentioned by the media which happened pretty quickly it was just a natural flow unfortunately.
It happens everywhere, shield cricket once got reasonable crowds, media ignored shield cricket and now no one goes across the whole country. Yet people go and watch those same cricketers in the BBL because the media report on it.
 

Papa G

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 13, 2006
25,493
51,910
The Bitter End
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
Really like to know just how bad the deals are for the tennant clubs at Marvel. I know that the SANFL makes on average around a million in revenue for each game at AO.
 

greatwhiteshark

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2007
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Perth
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West Coast
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Really like to know just how bad the deals are for the tennant clubs at Marvel. I know that the SANFL makes on average around a million in revenue for each game at AO.
Whatever the deals are it must fall back on the clubs who agree to said Deal. Unhappy with deal then talk to your club CEO who signed it and said we accept deal as it is the best deal for us.
 

Kwality

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Aug 14, 2011
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Its more or less true, both the WA sides and for a time even the SA sides up to 6 or 7 years ago, received less from the AFL than most other clubs. But that said, profitable clubs, non Docklands based clubs and non victorian clubs are always going to be bottom half due to the central funding arrangements that the AFL, Victorian Clubs and Docklands clubs get from Docklands and the MCG. (signage, pourage, afl memberships etc)
I'd expect stadium arrangements would be included in any review of the AFL - much as the current administration would like control these arrangements, they dont & wont.
The inequity of the Docklands/MCG arrangements cant be addressed either, as the MCC will act in its own best interests whenever possible.
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
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I wouldn't be surprised to see a proposal(s) by HQ to certain clubs to 'encourage' them to look at different 'set ups'. For optic reasons (to look more 'national') and for other reasons that have been debated.

If HQ didn't 'want' for a national comp we would not have franchise set ups like GC and GWS in territory where there is minimal interest in AF.

I:E mergers or relocations.

There are multiple elephants in the room:

1/ IF the charter still applies (I imagine it would) then of course the proposed clubs members would have to consulted in the vote.

*Past evidence, the proposed move of North to GC was emphatically voted no by their members

2/ A majority vote from all clubs (who would consult their own members) of 3/4 would be required to move on the proposal(s)

3/ Non member fan backlash, *the proposed merger failure of Melb and Hawthorn. Pretty ugly scenes.

In a nutshell, the clubs in this league are 'owned' by the club members (apart from GC and GWS - league owned) and ultimately get the final say not withstanding insolvency. Insolvency right now seems an unlikely option because the intent of HQ is to ensure every clubs survival (financially).

Seems a conflict of interest doesn't it? Wanting a national comp AND wanting to ensure every clubs survival.

So the question is 'why' do HQ intend to ensure clubs survival instead of just letting 'nature take its course'?

My guess is that just about every club maybe apart from St. Kilda don't have notable debt issues AND (more importantly from a revenue pov) the apparent fact (Morgan poll) the smallest vic club fan base is +200k.

Guess it's a rock and a hard place. :shrug:
 

madmug

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 17, 2009
17,002
11,148
Hobart
AFL Club
Collingwood
For development of WA football.

$4m is peanuts compared what Victoria Football gets from the AFL.

In 2019

Fremantle made $27m from Membership, Corporate and marketing, and ticket sales.

Blues made $25m for the same but made $3.5 profit from the social club and pokies.

Fremantle made about $30,000 more in merchandise.

Fremantle pays $1m royalty fees to the WAFC. Which the AFL underfunds compared to Victoria per capita.

Carlton gets $3m more in funding from the AFL than Fremantle.

Blues make a profit of $2.6m and Dockers make a loss of $300,000.

That's total bs from the AFL.

Then you add Saints getting $9m more, Dogs $5m more, Melbourne $5m more, and Roos $5.5m more.

Only Hawthorn and Collingwood got less than the Dockers. Even then, Collingwood got $25,000 less than Fremantle and the Hawks about $300k less.
Hopefully Hawks & North will need a lot more from the AFL when The Tas gravy train derails.

Soon as possible I hope. Toot toot ;)
 

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The_Wookie

Queenslander
Jul 2, 2010
33,461
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In a nutshell, the clubs in this league are 'owned' by the club members (apart from GC and GWS - league owned) and ultimately get the final say not withstanding insolvency. Insolvency right now seems an unlikely option because the intent of HQ is to ensure every clubs survival (financially).
Theres a few more clubs that are ruled from HQ - The Swans, Crows and Port all have boards majority controlled by the AFL itself - although the Crows at least will finally own their own license in 2029 (and I expect Port to do the same even if they havent said so at all in any documents Ive seen).

Seems a conflict of interest doesn't it? Wanting a national comp AND wanting to ensure every clubs survival.
How is that a conflict of interest? The league has lost 2 clubs in 123 years of operation. Thats a damn good record for the journey.

So the question is 'why' do HQ intend to ensure clubs survival instead of just letting 'nature take its course'?
I think the better question is why shouldnt it? The league is nominally not for profit.

My guess is that just about every club maybe apart from St. Kilda don't have notable debt issues AND (more importantly from a revenue pov) the apparent fact (Morgan poll) the smallest vic club fan base is +200k.

Guess it's a rock and a hard place. :shrug:
We've seen North and Carlton announce this year that they expect to be debt free next year after years in debt. The Saints are a little bit further off, and Im not sure about the Dees, but with the right admin and the right pushes from HQ, theres no reason to believe they cant be turned around as well.
 

Kwality

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Aug 14, 2011
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We've seen North and Carlton announce this year that they expect to be debt free next year after years in debt. The Saints are a little bit further off, and Im not sure about the Dees, but with the right admin and the right pushes from HQ, theres no reason to believe they cant be turned around as well.
As long as the AFL is able ($s) to play ball, debt free is within reach.

The Dees/Bentleigh club deal is worthy of any academic business school study when its completed. The Balance Sheet will be fine.

Whilst getting out of pokies is applauded, how much of it is 'one off' profit? What replaces the trading profits?

I'm not sure individual club financial sustainability will be a part of a review unless the individual clubs agree to it - one size does not fit all.
 

beema limapep

????????????
Oct 29, 2017
6,875
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AFL Club
Richmond
Really like to know just how bad the deals are for the tennant clubs at Marvel. I know that the SANFL makes on average around a million in revenue for each game at AO.
I remember hearing in the early 2010s that some of the smaller clubs had to draw 5-10k on top of their ave attendance to break even. Hence some were actually losing money.

Since then though i understand that contracts have been renegotiated. So it probably a minor profit per game as a min.

Would be interesting to know exact numbers for 2019.
 

Carringbush2010

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Jun 6, 2016
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versus


Resist the temptation to cherrypick the numbers.
And?

Why do you non vic fans want to change things?, wafl GF's the last one was what 10k roughly? So where's all the die hard wafl fans that you talk about? They all follow wc and freo - that's where they are.

Can't you all just accept the comp for what it is without wanting to cull vic clubs 'for the good of the game'?
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
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How is that a conflict of interest? The league has lost 2 clubs in 123 years of operation. Thats a damn good record for the journey.
How? Well HQ spruik about the comp being national when it is really an expanded VFL, you can't have the bulk of clubs in one state and claim it as national, while spruiking you're going to save all those clubs in the same breath.

So yeah some would view it as a conflict of interest.
 

The_Wookie

Queenslander
Jul 2, 2010
33,461
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Carlton
How? Well HQ spruik about the comp being national when it is really an expanded VFL, you can't have the bulk of clubs in one state and claim it as national, while spruiking you're going to save all those clubs in the same breath.

So yeah some would view it as a conflict of interest.
as long as there are teams and matches all over the country - and there are - it doesnt really matter if there are more in one place than any other. And why cant the league act in the interest of its constituent clubs in the first place? If the league can afford it why would they want to get rid of clubs? This reasoning has never made any damn sense.
 

Kwality

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Aug 14, 2011
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And?

Why do you non vic fans want to change things?, wafl GF's the last one was what 10k roughly? So where's all the die hard wafl fans that you talk about? They all follow wc and freo - that's where they are.

Can't you all just accept the comp for what it is without wanting to cull vic clubs 'for the good of the game'?
See you.
 

Kwality

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
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as long as there are teams and matches all over the country - and there are - it doesnt really matter if there are more in one place than any other. And why cant the league act in the interest of its constituent clubs in the first place? If the league can afford it why would they want to get rid of clubs? This reasoning has never made any damn sense.
In my opinion its about the game at the elite level & the game nationally ..... what we've got is neither.
 

pablo668

Club Legend
May 3, 2007
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Claremont
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And?

Why do you non vic fans want to change things?, wafl GF's the last one was what 10k roughly? So where's all the die hard wafl fans that you talk about? They all follow wc and freo - that's where they are.

Can't you all just accept the comp for what it is without wanting to cull vic clubs 'for the good of the game'?
You're kind of wrong and right at the same time, I'm talking about the 2020 GF in isolation. Take that out and I can't really argue your point.

The 2020 GF was at Freo oval, they only sold 10k tickets because of Covid, initially the number was lower. I'm not sure how they could have fit much more than 10k in tbh. But the demand was there for more tickets.
It was kind of an odd occasion tbh. Tight game, quiet crowd till the last few minutes.

Fwiw, South Freo are probably the most analagous team to Collingwood in th old WAFL. Huge following in back in the day, similar temperament, fan background, similarly passionate. Punchy when their team is losing.
 

Kwality

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
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I don't get this post.
Do you mean you want less clubs, so only the best of the best play?

As far as i know, this is the elite level.
No, its only sold that way, maybe I can offer you a 2021 Commodore?

We add 100 odd 2nd tier players & they are elite then?
I do concede that was the Vic belief in the VFL days, they called the VFL senior footy (Polly debuted at 27 with a couple of AAs to his name). Barrie Robran, et al.

Got a bit of the John Elliot about you Lizzie?
 

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