7News: Major Review into the AFL, independent of the AFL & the 18 Clubs, will start early 2021.

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Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
10,447
6,543
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
Those numbers are bullshit.
The morgan poll is all we got, you can make of it what you will.

Whatever the case, the only way you'll get your wish is for insolvency that HQ can't save them from. Norf are posting yearly profits, and the dees debt is minimal apparently. So yeah like it or lump it.
 

Papa G

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 13, 2006
25,493
51,910
The Bitter End
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
The morgan poll is all we got, you can make of it what you will.

Whatever the case, the only way you'll get your wish is for insolvency that HQ can't save them from. Norf are posting yearly profits, and the dees debt is minimal apparently. So yeah like it or lump it.

Roy Morgan hey? The mob that brings us such gems as Geelong supporters are 34% more like to own a pair of Moccasins? I'll go with what I can see.
Always find North's numbers completely astounding. They claim to have 42,000 members, but never really get more than 20,000 of their own supporters to games. They claim to make profits. How? They get the least people to games of any of the established clubs, they have no outside business interests (pokies, Gyms whatever), outside of hood winking the Tasmanian's out of a few Bob, I have no idea how this is possible?
 

Carringbush2010

Brownlow Medallist
Jun 6, 2016
10,447
6,543
Perth
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Pines Football Club
Roy Morgan hey? The mob that brings us such gems as Geelong supporters are 34% more like to own a pair of Moccasins? I'll go with what I can see.
Always find North's numbers completely astounding. They claim to have 42,000 members, but never really get more than 20,000 of their own supporters to games. They claim to make profits. How? They get the least people to games of any of the established clubs, they have no outside business interests (pokies, Gyms whatever), outside of hood winking the Tasmanian's out of a few Bob, I have no idea how this is possible?
20,000 you say............... rarely they get 20k - it's usually more.

All of which doesn't matter coz they're still here, HQ want them to stay and you don't like it.

They've been in this league since 1925, port came in the 90's, they were here 1st and their fans will rightly tell you to GAGF.................... I'm sure you'd say the same if the shoe was on the other foot.
 

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Kwality

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
28,747
10,794
Trafalgar
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Renault F1
Explain in detail with facts if you want to discuss properly. Otherwise I’m happy to be amused by the delusion.
Whilst you choose not to support your claims ..... see the post from The Wookie as you clearly need a template.
As I responded to that post I was clearly not across IPLs dispersal of funds & it is a matter of record as The Wookie described.

Good luck with your projects.
 

Kwality

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
28,747
10,794
Trafalgar
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Renault F1
8 is the right number for Victoria.

The 2 expendable clubs would be North and Melbourne.

Neither represent a significant side/area/sector of Melbourne suburbia. Neither have much growth potential. Neither have natural rivalries. Neither have much profile.

If the goal is a real representative national league (which it probably isn't) you could push North to maybe Canberra and tap into that Riverina area over the longer term, put in a stand alone Tasmanian team and hope Melbourne's largely aged and small supporter base seep to Hawthorn or St Kilda.
The problem with the idea of a geographical supporter base is convincing the natives. Gil may believe he can tell Tasmanians who to support, he's wrong.
Remember Norths days as the 'Traveling Wilberrys', when the Roos represented Canberra or Tas or Sydney or the Gold Coast - that phase has gone Gil.

Clearly there are many who want to retain any advantage they have got, are not interested in a fair competition for all.
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Complete crap. In 2019, Melbourne, North and the Dogs all got 4 home games against the 6 bigger Vic clubs. Saints got 3.

Bulldogs also got home derbies against North and Melbourne as well as home games against Brisbane and Sydney, clubs with reasonable legacy support in Melbourne. That's 6 derby home games and 2 with significant away support.

Saints got Melbourne and Dogs plus Brisbane.

North got Syd and Brisbane at home and sold North and Melbourne to Tasmania.

Melbourne got Saints and Sydney.

If we compare that to a "looked after club" like yours, in 2019 Carlton got only 2 home games against the other 5 big Vic clubs, played all the small Vic clubs as well as Brisbane and Sydney. So 6 derby games plus Sydney/Brisbane.

So Carlton actually got less home games against the bigger Vic sides than any of the small 4. Interesting huh?
Go back and check the 25 years before that. These are systemic issues which have been happening since the AFL introduced their "crowd/revenue maximisation" policies in 1992/93. And that is just one part of the issue as The_Wookie has stated. The issues faced by Melbourne clubs are different to the issues faced by non-Vic clubs, comparing North with Freo is a false equivalency. Comparing North with Essendon or Collingwood shows the discrepancy in fixturing which favours the bigger Vic clubs.
 

portly

Premiership Player
Apr 8, 2001
3,347
2,201
SA
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
20,000 you say............... rarely they get 20k - it's usually more.

All of which doesn't matter coz they're still here, HQ want them to stay and you don't like it.

They've been in this league since 1925, port came in the 90's, they were here 1st and their fans will rightly tell you to GAGF.................... I'm sure you'd say the same if the shoe was on the other foot.
Port came in 1870.


On SM-G920I using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Theres a few more clubs that are ruled from HQ - The Swans, Crows and Port all have boards majority controlled by the AFL itself - although the Crows at least will finally own their own license in 2029 (and I expect Port to do the same even if they havent said so at all in any documents Ive seen).



How is that a conflict of interest? The league has lost 2 clubs in 123 years of operation. Thats a damn good record for the journey.



I think the better question is why shouldnt it? The league is nominally not for profit.



We've seen North and Carlton announce this year that they expect to be debt free next year after years in debt. The Saints are a little bit further off, and Im not sure about the Dees, but with the right admin and the right pushes from HQ, theres no reason to believe they cant be turned around as well.
Melbourne made a loss of $2.8m this year I think but have cleared our debt partly due to selling the Leighoak club a couple of years back. Wouldn't surprise me if we go back into debt (or take out a loan) when we finally get our facilities built but we would be relying on significant funding from AFL and Govt as part of that.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

Don't Get Cut
Aug 21, 2018
16,618
38,950
AFL Club
North Melbourne
8 is the right number for Victoria.

The 2 expendable clubs would be North and Melbourne.

Neither represent a significant side/area/sector of Melbourne suburbia. Neither have much growth potential. Neither have natural rivalries. Neither have much profile.

If the goal is a real representative national league (which it probably isn't) you could push North to maybe Canberra and tap into that Riverina area over the longer term, put in a stand alone Tasmanian team and hope Melbourne's largely aged and small supporter base seep to Hawthorn or St Kilda.
No you couldn't.

Couldn't do it to the Gold Coast ... you'll remember that, you were deeply emotionally invested but brutally let down by Demetriou ... when we had a massive debt and playing out of portables.

Not going anywhere now.

Soz.
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

Don't Get Cut
Aug 21, 2018
16,618
38,950
AFL Club
North Melbourne
There's also a sense that completely undeserving clubs are in the league for no other reason but location and incumbency. Who now exist to simply backup the 6 Victorian clubs the league actually gives a sh*t about and to maintain the social cohesion of a fragile city as an opiate of the masses for a dystopian socialist state government.

1609744100431.png
 

SimpkinByTheDockOfTheBay

Don't Get Cut
Aug 21, 2018
16,618
38,950
AFL Club
North Melbourne
No. The league is elite. The quality is fine, and the fixture would be compromised even if you killed off the four smallest Victorian teams. I can see an argument for merging the smallest and poorest of them purely to ensure they're sustainable in the long term, but all of them are popular enough to survive in the short to medium term. On top of which, Melbourne was the fastest growing city in Australia before Covid.
You mean like what North tried to do with Fitzroy decades ago, only to be blocked by sooky la la "big clubs"?
 

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pablo668

Club Legend
May 3, 2007
2,516
2,875
Claremont
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Claremont Tigers
I don't disagree re the WAFL gf, the discussion is pointless when talking about culling, merging or relocating vic clubs. Which is what a lot of non vic club fans want coz 'fair'.

Well the members of those 'targeted' clubs will say a big f u when the club consults them. The only way to rid of clubs is insolvency, HQ are determined they survive.

So for those that wish for less vic clubs, guess what, you ain't gettin what you want.

So for now either suck it up or enjoy your misery, that's what it really boils down to.
Yep, from a parochial Sandgroper, I just can't see it happening anytime soon (cull of Vic clubs) and don't particularly want it to. I'd liked to have more traditional clubs in the AFL from the get go, but it's too late now, by 30 years. Unfortunately the business model behind clubs like the Eagles and Docker makes more sense.
 

Laphroaig

I Hate You
Jul 22, 2013
16,145
23,542
AFL Club
Carlton
Yep, from a parochial Sandgroper, I just can't see it happening anytime soon (cull of Vic clubs) and don't particularly want it to. I'd liked to have more traditional clubs in the AFL from the get go, but it's too late now, by 30 years.
Correct. Too many came in in the first place. And some fairly stern efforts to do the culling process after the event didn't come to enough, partly due the increasing revenue in the game, and partly because the fledgling AFL would have lasted about 5 minutes if it lost the Victorian public. Which it came uncomfortably close to doing as the failed merger / relocation efforts built up resentment - and not just in the Clubs that had their heads on the block.

Too late.


Unfortunately the business model behind clubs like the Eagles and Docker makes more sense.
Not sure on that one. A business environment where you have twice as many potential customers in your accessible population base as your competitors do tends to take a lot of pressure off the business model.

The ironic part is that finding a way to chop 4 or 5 Vic Clubs (which a portion of the WA fan base demand in the name of "fairness") would have the inevitable effect of wiping out the significant competitive advantage the WA Clubs enjoy. Wouldn't happen overnight, but it would happen.
 

Johnny Bananas

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 10, 2010
6,589
8,265
A sugar refinery
AFL Club
Brisbane Lions
You mean like what North tried to do with Fitzroy decades ago, only to be blocked by sooky la la "big clubs"?
Precisely. It would have been better for everyone had they just allowed that to go ahead. If the merged club had to give up a few players for it to happen, so be it. Not that I'm complaining when the failure of that merger helped my club get three premierships.
 

mcfazza28

Debutant
Jul 16, 2011
113
150
London
AFL Club
West Coast
It’s amazing how it’s always the financially strapped clubs always seem to have “more heart”. This is true in other sports too.

As I have said before, it’s not about growth if your own growth is at slower pace than the competition. You will be left behind and that’s why there is a financial issue.

If salary cap was 30% lower, all clubs would be financially well off. But unfortunately you cannot move at pace of slowest club.

We have also hit peak afl. Financial crisis is 2-5 years away from all this money printing being done. If Covid doesn’t finish clubs off, that will.
I keep banging on about fairness and many correctly counter that revenue will decrease, supporters will be lost and TV deal demands 22 rounds of 9 games.

This is the counter revenue narrative. That economic issues lead to reduced consumer demand. This combined with a less financial AFL may mean they are unable to support assisted clubs.

The unassisted clubs (Collingwood, Richmond, Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs, West Coast and Adelaide) should be fine and I’m sure the WAFC will sort Fremantle.

What about the rest. They need subsidy as part of their revenue. If they have pokies they will suffer reduced revenue from them as well.

Then where do we go. Market forces will dictate hard decisions. I just hope they don’t hold the unassisted clubs back by reducing spending. This league needs to be the best it can.

This I see as the counter economic argument to maintaining all clubs for revenue reasons. The broadcast deal will also change due to financial pressures on broadcasters.
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Because it’s a national league with too many Victorian clubs diluting the quality and compromising the fixture.

This also leads to a myopic focus on Melbourne. Yes Melbourne is the home of the game and the most supporters but it’s a national league. The league needs to do some thing to make a statement about being national post this review.

The biggest statements would be reducing the amount of teams in Melbourne or sharing the GF.
Neither of those things will happen so I'd prepare for disappointment if I were you.
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Not if the league was:
Carlton
Collingwood
Richmond
Essendon
Hawthorn
Geelong
Sydney
GWS
Brisbane
Gold Coast
Adelaide
Port Adelaide
West Coast
Fremantle

Melbourne still has 5 teams which is 3 more than any other city. E.g Perth 2m with 2 teams v Melbourne 5m with 5 teams. Seems fair geographically and respects Melbourne as the home of Oz sport with 6 of 14 teams and triple what any other state has.

If we want the volume route go to 20 with 19 rounds and no double ups. Oh and the 2 new teams must be interstate.

I’m flexible
So your idea of improving the competition is disenfranchising around a million supporters and 160-200k club members? 🤣
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
I will tell you what, and this is just my opinion, could be bullshit.

If 7 had a say of which club they would rather in the AFL out of Melbourne or Port, i am betting they say Melbourne.
Not only that, if the TV rights holders had a choice between a Vic only comp or a comp comprised solely of non-Vic clubs I would bet they would be selecting the Vic comp everytime.
 

pablo668

Club Legend
May 3, 2007
2,516
2,875
Claremont
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Claremont Tigers
Correct. Too many came in in the first place. And some fairly stern efforts to do the culling process after the event didn't come to enough, partly due the increasing revenue in the game, and partly because the fledgling AFL would have lasted about 5 minutes if it lost the Victorian public. Which it came uncomfortably close to doing as the failed merger / relocation efforts built up resentment - and not just in the Clubs that had their heads on the block.

Too late.




Not sure on that one. A business environment where you have twice as many potential customers in your accessible population base as your competitors do tends to take a lot of pressure off the business model.

The ironic part is that finding a way to chop 4 or 5 Vic Clubs (which a portion of the WA fan base demand in the name of "fairness") would have the inevitable effect of wiping out the significant competitive advantage the WA Clubs enjoy. Wouldn't happen overnight, but it would happen.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that a franchise club like the Eagles or Dockers looks to me like it would be more successful than it would have been taking East or West Perth out of the WAFL and chucking them into the AFL. As much as I would have preferred that.
I'm not an economics talking guy so I don't really know.
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
15,751
11,768
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Bulldogs have more supporters that actually rock up, more heart, more personality, represent a genuine region of Melbourne and more growth potential.
That's plain rubbish. In 2018 we averaged over 40k to our home games, when was the last time the Bulldogs did that?
 

Laphroaig

I Hate You
Jul 22, 2013
16,145
23,542
AFL Club
Carlton
I guess what I'm trying to say is that a franchise club like the Eagles or Dockers looks to me like it would be more successful than it would have been taking East or West Perth out of the WAFL and chucking them into the AFL. As much as I would have preferred that.
I'm not an economics talking guy so I don't really know.
Get what you are at now.

In retrospect, I think it was a really bad idea.

The Eagles (and Crows) first with a local power added later on was a justifiable choice at the time, but I think ultimately flawed. It condemned the comp to having one very powerful side in WA and SA with a weak sister added later - and with very little hope of ever expanding its share of the state.

The magnificent way in which the Crows have squandered that massive head start is misleading. They still have the advantage if they ever get their sh*t together and use it.
 

JayJ20

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 28, 2016
13,819
19,305
AFL Club
Essendon
I keep banging on about fairness and many correctly counter that revenue will decrease, supporters will be lost and TV deal demands 22 rounds of 9 games.

This is the counter revenue narrative. That economic issues lead to reduced consumer demand. This combined with a less financial AFL may mean they are unable to support assisted clubs.

The unassisted clubs (Collingwood, Richmond, Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs, West Coast and Adelaide) should be fine and I’m sure the WAFC will sort Fremantle.

What about the rest. They need subsidy as part of their revenue. If they have pokies they will suffer reduced revenue from them as well.

Then where do we go. Market forces will dictate hard decisions. I just hope they don’t hold the unassisted clubs back by reducing spending. This league needs to be the best it can.

This I see as the counter economic argument to maintaining all clubs for revenue reasons. The broadcast deal will also change due to financial pressures on broadcasters.
Essendon are also unassisted. With Collingwood, Essendon, Richmond, Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs, West Coast, Fremantle and Adelaide being financially stable (plus teams like Geelong and Melbourne also being alright as well), I don't see why the AFL couldn't support the rest like it's currently doing.

I know interstate supporters don't want to face the facts, but GWS and Gold Coast would be providing more headaches than teams like North.
 

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