A good year to Tank

PHX

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#26
It is the last year to tank but we dont need to.

After this year whoever doesnt have their list growing or on a plateau is nackered for 5 years as the draft will be ripped apart for these other clubs.

Melbourne are ____ed.
 

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tigertiger

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#27
Just on this idea that we have gone about it the wrong way. I actually think we have just about got it right. If you look back over the drafts under Wallace you'll see what I mean:

2004
First year of drafting we had 10 draft picks overall. From those 10 picks the 7 are still on the list and the make up of that group is 4 midfield/flanker types: Deledio, Tambling, Meyer & Polo and 3 talls (ruck/KP): Pattison, Thursfield and McGuane.

2005
Second year followed a similar path to the first. 7 picks overall, 6 currently remain and the breakdown is as follows: Midfield/Flankers - 4 JON, Casserly, White & Howat. Rucks/KP - 2 Hughes & Graham.

2006
Third year and we had 8 picks overall plus a good trade. 5 still remain with the breakdown as follows: Midfield/Flankers - 4 Edwards, Connors, Collins & King. Talls - 2 Riewoldt & Polak

2007
Last year we had 7 picks (not counting Howat being re drafted) and this time we went tall. Only 2 Midfield/Flanker types were picked up with Cotchin and Collard. On the other hand we went with 5 KP/3rd Tall/Ruck - Rance, Putt, Gourdis, Silvester & Cartledge.

Looking at that it tells me that Wallace has worked his plan well. Stocked up on midfield/flanker types who have developed quicker than what the talls would have and are able to play while we still have blokes like Richo running around who as an experienced KP player knows how to finish off the job & Simmonds who can carry the load in the ruck. In the meantime we can/will be able to slowly blood the likes of Riewoldt, Hughes, Rance & Gourdis in the forward line over the next few years, while we also give time to Pattison, Graham & Putt to hopefully develop into quality ruckmen.

That being the case it would seem that the next few years aren't going to hit us as hard as some might think it will. Now that we have spent money improving our recruitment dept, what we will need to do though is make sure the picks we do have are not the speculative picks of the past but more the safe, secure picks that are more likely than not going to deliver.
Great Post to all the Terry bashers on this site drafting is an inexact science. He has had a plan and drafted a lot of potential talent some work some dont some come through the rookie list (kingy you legend)

It takes money to have feet on the ground watching lots of young kids playing to make all the right choices in recruiting. This money is something we didnt have so have made some mistakes and missed some quality players just like most other clubs in the competition.

We are spending more then ever on talent searching now and it will pay dividends in the long term.

I actually like the look of the list we have at the moment but it has and will take time to turn over a list to the extent we have and get the maturity into those players.
 

CoggaRules

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#28
Both useful picks.

Silvester is because we always pick one from Coburg...Hopefully, it's someone who will come good, but more importantly, it helps us to recruit decent players for the burgers if they think they have a chance like this. Better players there mean our kids develop better with better support from those around them, especially when these support acts will be working hard to impress and Coburg winning more games from the extra depth. If we never pick up a good player from that program, it's still worth a rookie pick!

Cartledge. Last year we were exposed for not having mature ruck backups..so we got someone who was decent, and cheap ( rookie ) to give us options if Simmo goes down again. Could we have traded for someone better? Sure..but at that price, this was a good value pick.
debatable, i would be betting that if Simmo goes down and one of Putt or Gus dont step up we would be ____ed anyway. Bummers left themselves with Hille and LayedCock they would never have got rid of Cartledge if he was "decent".Tried and tested formula, never pick up a sheedy discard. ;)
 

Wallaby

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#29
OK, Number 1 Draft picks over the last few years:

1992 - Banfield - handy
1993 - Gaspar - Very good for a period
1994 - White - very good player
1995 - Waterhouse - WTF?
1996 - Gardiner - Great when his mind was on the job
1997 - Johnstone - (shudder)
1998 - Headland - Ha Ha
1999 - Fraser - Handy
2000 - Riewoldt - Champ
2001 - Hodge - Champ
2002 - Goddard - Handy
2003 - Cooney - Quite good
2004 - Deledio - Better than average

The last 3 years are too soon to make any reasonable judgement.

OK - Premierships from that group

Banfield - Basically a bench player.
Gardiner - Cut straight after the Grannie
Headland - Part of Brisbanes awesome midfield - errr, no he wasn't. Brissie were happy to dump him.
 

Wally Matera

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#30
I have been biting my tongue on this for a while now, so Nut, l'm glad you opened this thread. :)

We have been in re-cycle mode now for 3.5 years, trying to get the deadwood out. We are nearly there. I honestly think that we may have timed our run well... but it could be better.

After this year and with the introduction of Gold Coast and West Sydney, it will be harder for clubs coming back and rebuilding quickly... particularly after this years draft. This will be the last "un-tampered" draft for a while, so teams like Sydney, Kangaroos, Adelaide, Port, West Coast will struggle to rebuild as quickly as Carlton, Harwthorn and us have, because more teams (with major incentives) will prevent the turnaround being so quick.

We have timed our run well, but it could be better. This year provides us with the last great chance. It could mean we stay up top longer as the above teams struggle to regain strength at the speed others have in the past. Dont be so hell bent to finish 9th, just so it looks like we're improving!

I say forget Joel, Kayne and Co and let them play out their days in the ressies this year. Blood our kids and drill them in a great new playing style that prides themselves on doing the "team" things! We have the last two weeks and run close to both the 2nd and 3rd teams and beat Fremantle in Perth. THATS PROGRESS FOR YOU... you have seen how the media have praised us for our progress lately... l'm not saying tank, but dont get hung up on winning for the sake of winning. Progress... and l dont mean to be negative in that, l'm not suggesting tanking, l'm not suggesting preventing a "winning culture", this is about playing the percentages and being a bit clever about the way the football world is at the moment and where the competition is heading. :thumbsu:
 

Crumden

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#31
More important than this years draft will be deciding which young players already on the list to lock up on contracts. Those opposed to longer term contracts will need to readjust their thinking.
 

Wallaby

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#32
More important than this years draft will be deciding which young players already on the list to lock up on contracts. Those opposed to longer term contracts will need to readjust their thinking.
True, that - with team 17 & 18 in the market. Even if they take no players from us, those clubs that do lose players will be looking to replace their losses.

Could be a trading frenzy. We need to spend contract money wisely.
 

folester41

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#33
i would much rather we win as many games as we can so us fans can enjoy the footy this year and getting to see our team play exciting footy, the young fellas gain confidence and experience and get something like pick 5 or 6.

in comparison to winning 3 games all season, having pick 1 and 2, and an even further drop in confidence for the boys, us fans having to whitness another season of losses and no progression in our team.

you cant put a price on confidence, and confidence is the building block for a succesful team, of course you have to have talent, but with confidence the players real talent will come out
 

nut

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Thread starter #34
The thing is that the new teams where not in the pipe works officially since last year so we weren't to know. After this draft the quality of picks will be gone for the following 4-5 years.
 

scarecrow2k1

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#35
The stupidest thing about this thread is not condoing tanking but the fact that it actually means 2 bad years to tank. This year they are cutting the age by 3-4 months meaning effectively 25% or more of the talent pool is gone. In the other year the GC are getting the top 5 picks. So basically the worst years you could choose to tank...
 

Rayzorwire

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#36
what culture man? forget this ____ing culture shit, its what gets in the way of "smart business desicions" focused on shoring up the future welfare of a club.

And as an exhibit of non smart, your last statement is a glaring example. Who gives a flying ____ if we are lumped in the Carltank gang?
On Planet California (population 1), you get to whinge for years that we're a hopeless side and that 95% of the list is useless, but when we start winning games and being highly competitive against good sides with that same list, you get to whinge that we're not tanking hard enough.

If you throw enough 'dude', 'fool', and random insults into this daily diatribe for enough years, it makes perfect sense.* ;)




* A partial lobotomy is an optional extra which can get you over the line if you're struggling with the migration process. ;)
 

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Sausage roll

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#37
On Planet California (population 1), you get to whinge for years that we're a hopeless side and that 95% of the list is useless, but when we start winning games and being highly competitive against good sides with that same list, you get to whinge that we're not tanking hard enough.

If you throw enough 'dude', 'fool', and random insults into this daily diatribe for enough years, it makes perfect sense.* ;)




* A partial lobotomy is an optional extra which can get you over the line if you're struggling with the migration process. ;)
You seem to be having trouble getting on with anyone Razorflog!

Mmm. whats the common denominator here?
 

Mario Speedwagon

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NOT ****IN' MAN.URE!!
#38
As they say..."A bird in the hand"....instilling our current players with pride in the jumper and having them learning how to win games of AFL has 1000 x the intrisic value of picking up a bunch of unproven kids who may or may not be stars at the highest level. The best players are, more often than not, unheralded smokeys who come from much lower in the draft anyway.

Leave tanking to the Juddites.:thumbsdown:
 

Tiger_Of_Old

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#39
We have just about got it right.No need to tank.
King Thursfeild Moore
Casserly Rance Conners
Collins Deledio Tambling
Morton Hughes Edwards
......... Shultz ...........
Putt Cotchin Foley

I/C:patto,Gouridis,........,.........
 

beaver fever

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#40
Always want to win, but just one more good draft would set us up for the next period of success. Best case scenario melbourne and essendon finish bottom 2 and pick up natanui and rich, and then fremantle and west coast finish off the bottom 4 and pick up a WA player each. This leaves Hurley to us at pick 5 and trade for warnock.

Hurley and Warnock would be a massive win for the club. The rest of our picks should go for 2 inside midfielders, 1 small tough defender, 1 HBF, and 1-2 small crumbing forwards. Rookie picks should go for KKP, ruck, inside midfielder and retain collard.
 

_RT_

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#41
as rookie picks they dont cost whoever you give a chance to.
and whovever we pointed to, would have jumped at the chance to get a chance at the big time. To suggest that there wasnt much left is a total cop out. They could have scoured the whole of Aus and found two maybes that might have lead to one being a rabbit out of a hat. To go for two who pretty much are going to fill in time with IMO no upside to our future stocks was a mistake.

I was listening to Fola last night on SEN, the question was, why werent you picked up in the draft and what is so different now.

His answer, i was lazy at junior level, never tried to break lines, didnt hit the 100% button. There is a plethora of the same still out there. You gotta look for it, not just look in the usual backyard of Coburg and a discard from the bummers. ;)
Silvester & Cartledge were rewarded for very good seasons at VFL level with rookie spots, if they make it as AFL footballers in the years to come then I'm assuming that they will be another of those 'smart' choices we've made in the rookie draft alongside King, Thursfield and Foley. If not, then what have they really cost us?

You need to remember that they are 2 players who are filling the 41st-44th positions on our list, not fighting for the top 22 spots. We should only be worried if they were in the top 22 because then we would be worse off than the Demons.
 
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#42
In a few years

N.Brown, Simmonds, Richo, Bowden Johnson will be gone. The first 3 are cream, we will be in deep trouble again.

One more year wouldve been good to get Rich and Natanui. and Fevola coming out of contract ;) But if the team has progressed that much that we cant get the PP then so be it, I just fear that in 3 years we will be on here looking back thinking "if only we had one more shocking year" and if any of you have seen extensive footage of natanui and even more so Rich, then you'll know what I mean.

Love seeing the tiggs win, but our list is still miles away, 2 super talents, plus number 1 pick in PSD that would net us a big fish this time round bc we are getting closer, would go a long way to establishing the playing list of this club over the next 5 years.

but all of you demanding wins and claiming its dirty to tank, enjoy looking up at the hawks, eagles and Blues over the next few years... clubs who dont let sentiment get in the way of business decisions that will bring success.

Hawks will be able to trade players like Dowler, Thorp, Williams to top up with top draft picks, who will we be able to trade for top picks? Dont kid yourselves, we are rank amateurs compared to some of the smooth movers in the AFL :(
 

Simche

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#43
Silvester & Cartledge were rewarded for very good seasons at VFL level with rookie spots, if they make it as AFL footballers in the years to come then I'm assuming that they will be another of those 'smart' choices we've made in the rookie draft alongside King, Thursfield and Foley. If not, then what have they really cost us?

You need to remember that they are 2 players who are filling the 41st-44th positions on our list, not fighting for the top 22 spots. We should only be worried if they were in the top 22 because then we would be worse off than the Demons.

What picking up these two have cost us RT is the potential to develop 18 year old rookies that could potentially play a big role in getting us to that elusive premiership. Both players for mine are really not looking to the long term and merely attempt to address squad depth at a time where squad depth is less of an issue than developing quality 200 game players.

I'm more chance of making it as a key AFL back than Sylvester is and I'm five eight. He is slightly undersized and has no real attribute that sets him apart. His disposal is average, his closing speed isn't impressive and he'll get monstered by the big forwards of the competition. Was a dumb pickup for mine when Neville had displayed such excellent form all year and really could have offered something to us at senior level at some stage.

Cartledge on the other hand I've been really impressed with him when I've seen him throughout the year. Think he might be one who Essendon gave up on too quickly for a big man and would be happy to keep him on the rookie list beyond this year if his current development continues. That being said he has had a crack at AFL level and looked hopelessly lost which worries me and brings me back to my preference that we should have gone the 18year old route and attempted to develop someone.
 

_RT_

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#44
In a few years

N.Brown, Simmonds, Richo, Bowden Johnson will be gone. The first 3 are cream, we will be in deep trouble again.

One more year wouldve been good to get Rich and Natanui. and Fevola coming out of contract ;) But if the team has progressed that much that we cant get the PP then so be it, I just fear that in 3 years we will be on here looking back thinking "if only we had one more shocking year" and if any of you have seen extensive footage of natanui and even more so Rich, then you'll know what I mean.

Love seeing the tiggs win, but our list is still miles away, 2 super talents, plus number 1 pick in PSD that would net us a big fish this time round bc we are getting closer, would go a long way to establishing the playing list of this club over the next 5 years.

but all of you demanding wins and claiming its dirty to tank, enjoy looking up at the hawks, eagles and Blues, clubs who dont let sentiment get in the way of business decisions that will bring success.
Here is the list of players at our club with 20 games or fewer games to their name: Edwards, McGuane, Meyer, Morton, Hughes, Reiwoldt, JON, Connors & Graham. Along with the following who are yet to even debut: Casserly, Collins, Cotchin, Gourdis, Putt & Rance. Thats 15 kids who are yet to establish themselves at AFL level. When I look at that list I see the make up of a team that may well be running out to play come 2010, especially when you add names like: Deledio, Tambling, Pattison, Schulz, Newman, Foley, Thursfield, Moore, King, Polak & McMahon. I really don't think we are in as much trouble as you might think.
 
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#45
Here is the list of players at our club with 20 games or fewer games to their name: Edwards, McGuane, Meyer, Morton, Hughes, Reiwoldt, JON, Connors & Graham. Along with the following who are yet to even debut: Casserly, Collins, Cotchin, Gourdis, Putt & Rance. Thats 15 kids who are yet to establish themselves at AFL level. When I look at that list I see the make up of a team that may well be running out to play come 2010, especially when you add names like: Deledio, Tambling, Pattison, Schulz, Newman, Foley, Thursfield, Moore, King, Polak & McMahon. I really don't think we are in as much trouble as you might think.

As a general rule, I dont count my chickens until they're hatched....
 

telsor

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#46
Big problem with the "we've got no talent therefore we need to tank" argument is that it's circular.

Why do we think we have no talent? Because we keep losing..

How do we tank?...by losing..

So by tanking, we'll keep looking like we've got no talent, and people will always be there arguing we need to tank again.

Meanwhile, the kids we do have are learning bad habits ( ie, not winning ), getting lazy and/or leaving.
 

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#47
What picking up these two have cost us RT is the potential to develop 18 year old rookies that could potentially play a big role in getting us to that elusive premiership. Both players for mine are really not looking to the long term and merely attempt to address squad depth at a time where squad depth is less of an issue than developing quality 200 game players.

I'm more chance of making it as a key AFL back than Sylvester is and I'm five eight. He is slightly undersized and has no real attribute that sets him apart. His disposal is average, his closing speed isn't impressive and he'll get monstered by the big forwards of the competition. Was a dumb pickup for mine when Neville had displayed such excellent form all year and really could have offered something to us at senior level at some stage.

Cartledge on the other hand I've been really impressed with him when I've seen him throughout the year. Think he might be one who Essendon gave up on too quickly for a big man and would be happy to keep him on the rookie list beyond this year if his current development continues. That being said he has had a crack at AFL level and looked hopelessly lost which worries me and brings me back to my preference that we should have gone the 18year old route and attempted to develop someone.
As I said rookie picks are used to fill spots 41 plus on an AFL list, if we are relying on these picks to become 200 gamers then we're in trouble. Personally, I look at the rookie draft as nothing more than a way to top up the list, you may think that is the wrong way to look at it but over the last 10 years here are our successes from the rookie draft: Foley, King, Moore & Thursfield thats 4 players. Here is the list of our misses over the same period: Robert Taylor(twice), Teaghan Henderson(twice), Ben Haynes, Royce Vardy, Troy Kirwan, Garth Taylor, Adrian Burgiel, Micheal Barker, Craig Ednie, Kristian De Pasquale, Brad Miller, Matt King, Simon Hart, Matthew Shir, Adam Pickering, Dragacevic, Humm & Clingan. The jury is still out on Howat, Graham, Collard, Carltedge and Silvester.

Even though the rookie draft still throws up the odd quality player not many who end up being taken there are going to turn into 200 gamers. Those 200 game types are the ones we need to find with the National draft picks and use the rookie draft for what its intended purpose is and that is to add depth to your list without having to spend a heap to do so. If it does uncover a potential 200 gamer then we have lucked out, but as I've shown the odds of that happening are not that great.
 

telsor

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#48
Was a dumb pickup for mine when Neville had displayed such excellent form all year and really could have offered something to us at senior level at some stage.
Neville is a very good player at VFL level, but really didn't have that extra 'something' to make it in the AFL. You'll notice nobody else picked him up, but everyone knew his talents.

The guy is great at getting the ball, and racks up good numbers because of that, but apart from that, he's ordinary ( by AFL standards ). He's like Foley, but without the burst of speed, and without that ( and the extra time it gives Foley to find a teammate, steady and dispose ), he'd be caught out at the top level.
 

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#49
As a general rule, I dont count my chickens until they're hatched....

The flipside of that is maybe you shouldn't be burying them either and advocating tanking.

If the 'kids' we are playing now weren't playing so well, many would be claiming we are tanking right now by taking Bowden and Pettifer out. The vacuum of Richo, Simmo and Browny will be huge, but all teams have ageing champions that will retire in the next few years.

The last few weeks we have been competitive and finally seem to at least getting nearly a 'full' team of skilled players, something we haven't had for a very long time. As this current group matures, with some 'smart' trading over the next 5 years, we should be top 4, without any of these top 5 players in the next draft everyone subscribing to the virtues of tanking deem essential for our success. We will get a crack at a top 10 pick who will have a lot of 'potential' (and yes, still unhatched!)

I'm with ya on this Razor! (mind you, you know the big guy was one of the many we have had in the last decade with 'skills lacking';))
 
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#50
I think our list is in pretty good condition. Key backs are good at the moment and we still have Rance coming through. Midfield, i believe is on its way to being one of the preeminent midfields in the comp. There is a bit of question over the forward line though. What i would do is look at trading players to the gold coast for picks. Meyer, Petifer, Hughes, Hyde, JON. These guys aren't all best 22 week in week out and may have some currency come 2010. Remember Essendon trading dodgy players for picks (lloyd and lucas). I wouldn't be too woried about the Gold Coast. It will suit clubs with depth. It's the strugglers which will struggle and i would hope that our list is on the up.
 
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