A quick look at grass roots senior football in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth.

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BringBackTorps

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Some sobering reporting that, for many different reasons, many young people are leaving smaller regional towns & rural communities- which is having a negative impact on being able to field their local AF club, "the "soul" of the community.

Forming female AF teams in these smaller areas could be the salvation of many AF clubs (but the male teams may still have to merge with a neighbouring team for mutual survival, due to declining young male populations).

 

screech

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Add to Adelaide:
  • Southern Football League is fully metropolitan (9 full clubs, 2 other clubs, 24 mens teams, 6 womens teams, 9 U/17.5 teams, 109 other junior male teams, 12 junior girl teams)
  • Great Southern Football League has two metropolitan clubs (McLaren & Willunga) - 4 mens teams, 2 womens teams, 2 U/17.5 teams, 4 other junior male, 3 junior girls)
  • Hills Football League has 13 metropolitan clubs (Blackwood, Mount Lofty, Birdwood, Gumeracha, Hahndorf, Ironbank, Kersbrook, Lobethal, Torrens Valley, Onkaparinga Valley, Uraidla, Bridgewater, Kangarilla)
  • Adelaide Plains Football League has two metropolitan clubs (Angle Vale, Virginia)
  • Barossa Light & Gawler Football Association has three metropolitan clubs (Gawler, South Gawler, Willaston)
 

Les Malone

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Add to Adelaide:
  • Southern Football League is fully metropolitan (9 full clubs, 2 other clubs, 24 mens teams, 6 womens teams, 9 U/17.5 teams, 109 other junior male teams, 12 junior girl teams)
  • Great Southern Football League has two metropolitan clubs (McLaren & Willunga) - 4 mens teams, 2 womens teams, 2 U/17.5 teams, 4 other junior male, 3 junior girls)
  • Hills Football League has 13 metropolitan clubs (Blackwood, Mount Lofty, Birdwood, Gumeracha, Hahndorf, Ironbank, Kersbrook, Lobethal, Torrens Valley, Onkaparinga Valley, Uraidla, Bridgewater, Kangarilla)
  • Adelaide Plains Football League has two metropolitan clubs (Angle Vale, Virginia)
  • Barossa Light & Gawler Football Association has three metropolitan clubs (Gawler, South Gawler, Willaston)
Yes thanks for that, got the Southern league on a post on the previous page


Looking at your post Perth and i imagine Melbourne have the same scenario, Peel league in Perth has plenty of suburban clubs but is listed as a country league.

What i was doing was just counting senior football teams in clubs (colts, mens, womens ) and using the population of those cities to get a rough guide on how popular the game is (at playing level), i am a bit surprised actually that Adelaide is fairly close to Perth in team numbers considering Perth now has a big population advantage.

I just never got around to posting the final tallies.

However colts level is where Perth is miles ahead of Adelaide. ( it seems )
 

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Kwality

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However colts level is where Perth is miles ahead of Adelaide. ( it seems )
Not across SA but I'm surprised by your conclusion, disappointed even. Does SA still have the traditional 3rds SANFL club set up?
Over the years the WAFL seem to have developed a great arrangement with the schools (same in Vic), how is that in Adelaide?
 

Les Malone

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OK, have not included WAFL, VFL or SANFL teams, maybe the VFL dont have colts, but there is a separate TAC comp and i have not included them.

All based on community grass roots numbers.

Perth combined 300 senior mens, womens and colts teams from a city of 2.385 million (Perth FL and Metro FL)

Adelaide 284 senior mens, womens and colts team from a city of 1.408 million (Adelaide FL and SFL)

Melbourne 792 mens, womens and colts teams from a city of 5.19 million. (Leagues listed in initial post)

If anyone is interested you can work out % to go with it.

*Peel league in WA is within Perth Metro boundary but listed as a country league by the WACFL

*Probably similar type leagues around Melbourne and Adelaide.
 

BringBackTorps

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For Melb., you have not included the South East Women's Football league.
There are 25 teams, c. 20 in the Melb. Metro area.


There are also many Melb. metro. teams you have not included, because they are in Leagues that also include some non-Melb. metro teams (as per my above post 3).

Adelaide appears to be significantly outperforming with its no. of teams, per capita, on your figures?
Are rural teams, just outside the Adelaide metro area, not included in any Adelaide metro comps. (so, therefore, Adelaide metro teams are not being excluded in your nos.)?

Is your Perth selection approach for "combined " Leagues the same as Vic. & SA?


EDIT:
As of 30.6.18, the ABS listed the population of "Greater Perth" then was 2,059,484- your figure of 2,385,000 seems high?
Does "Greater Perth" include areas outside of the Perth metro area?
 
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Les Malone

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For Melb., you have not included the South East Women's Football league.
There are 25 teams, c. 20 in the Melb. Metro area.


There are also many Melb. metro. teams you have not included, because they are in Leagues that also include some non-Melb. metro teams (as per my above post 3).

Adelaide appears to be significantly outperforming with its no. of teams, per capita, on your figures?
Are rural teams, just outside the Adelaide metro area, not included in any Adelaide metro comps. (so, therefore, Adelaide metro teams are not being excluded)?

Is your Perth selection approach for "combined " Leagues the same as Vic. & SA?
Yes thanks for that, it wasn't listed (SEWFL) under metro football on the VFL page, but it seems metro.

I have just included metro leagues, if a league is listed under the respective states country umbrella i have not listed it.

For ex Peel league is listed as a WA country league but is largely in Perth metro area.

Same as leagues skirting around Adelaide and Melbourne metro areas.

I am just defining metro and country leagues how the respective state bodies are.


Yes Adelaide looks way ahead, which i must admit i am surprised about.
 

RunningBounce

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Some sobering reporting that, for many different reasons, many young people are leaving smaller regional towns & rural communities- which is having a negative impact on being able to field their local AF club, "the "soul" of the community.

Forming female AF teams in these smaller areas could be the salvation of many AF clubs (but the male teams may still have to merge with a neighbouring team for mutual survival, due to declining young male populations).

Thanks for sharing that article. Very sobering.

The competitions that I know a little about seem to have less and less u18 teams. This seems to be even more pronounced in comps in regional areas. But that's just an observation from one person. (And I have the additional bias of thinking that de-population in regional Australia and over-crowding in cities is one of the biggest issues in the country.)

Can anyone shed any historical context on the numbers of Colts teams in this thread? Is there more or less than there was last year, 5 years ago, or way back when?
 

Kwality

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Thanks for sharing that article. Very sobering.

The competitions that I know a little about seem to have less and less u18 teams. This seems to be even more pronounced in comps in regional areas. But that's just an observation from one person. (And I have the additional bias of thinking that de-population in regional Australia and over-crowding in cities is one of the biggest issues in the country.)

Can anyone shed any historical context on the numbers of Colts teams in this thread? Is there more or less than there was last year, 5 years ago, or way back when?
In WA each of the WAFL clubs (including Peel Thunder from 1997) have Colts (U19) & its been that way thru to 50s that I'm aware of - was true of the VFL too, but the AFL changed that to the elite U18 comp of today & included teams from country.

The Amateurs comp in WA always included Colts, cant talk for the bush.
 
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Professor Knowall

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Some sobering reporting that, for many different reasons, many young people are leaving smaller regional towns & rural communities- which is having a negative impact on being able to field their local AF club, "the "soul" of the community.

Forming female AF teams in these smaller areas could be the salvation of many AF clubs (but the male teams may still have to merge with a neighbouring team for mutual survival, due to declining young male populations).

Coming from the country, it's long annoyed me that country leagues slavishly adopt the latest AFL changes even to their own detriment - such as expanding the interchange from 2 to 4 over the last couple of decades, thus making it even harder to get playing numbers in declining populations.

Most rural leagues should reduce team sizes from 22 to 18 - 16 on the field, 2 on the bench, thus making it much easier to find sufficient playing numbers.
 
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Dogs till i die

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Coming from the country, it's long annoyed me that country leagues slavishly adopt the latest AFL changes even to their own detriment - such as expanding the interchange from 2 to 4 over the last couple of decades, thus making it even harder to get playing numbers in declining populations.

Most rural leagues should reduce team sizes from 22 to 18 - 16 on the field, 2 on the bench, thus making it much easier to find sufficient playing numbers.
Often thought that myself, although the "fill ins", many lacking fitness, might not appreciate the extra space to run into!

I think local metro and country leagues, should cut their playing time to say 17 minutes per quarter, with time on. That might just keep players in the game a little longer, helping with numbers. Many retire due to the physical demands of playing, not just on playing days but for 2-3 days after each match. Let's make playing less physically taxing. Many matches are over by 3/4 time anyway, would cut a lot of game's "dead time".
 

Bunk Moreland

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Yeah as many have mentioned, the blurring between “metro” and “country” can be confusing.

I only really know Melbourne but large (perhaps all) areas of the OEFL and MPNFL are metro under any correct definition. Same with some clubs in Ballarat and Geelong leagues.

It’s something that hasn’t been updated by AFL Vic ever. A lot of these areas stopped being “country” decades ago
 

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BringBackTorps

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The Age J. Niall 23.5

Male snr GR AF in Vic. will have its salary cap cut in half, from c. $200K to $100k pa.
(Will this cut deter some players from playing? Or alternatively, will newly unemployed persons be more keen to play?).

All clubs will need to have an accredited Covid Safety Officer present for all training & games.
(An imposition for small clubs?).

Crowds will be banned- destroying the canteen & bar takings, & other fund raising functions inside the club house.

Re juniors, " Soccer, with fewer players & less contact, might be more appealing to some kids & parents".

"I think we'll lose kids because soccer has already got a start date" said an EDFL official.


AF has far more players at training & in games, cf other sports. This makes it more likely to record at least 1 player who might test positive- thus more perilous for GR AF.

Most GR clubs have small changerooms & outdoor player benches. How, with 22 players per team (24 in jnrs)- plus coaches etc.-can social distancing be maintained?
Can after training club meals still be arranged for players? After game drinks? Club networking will suffer (VAFA will be disconsolate!).
Will the covid officer be challenged/rebuked- especially if it is raining?

Will clubs experience a significant drop in sponsorship (particularly from pubs), due to the recession?

GR AF games without spectators will be less exciting. Unlike other jnr sports, GR AF jnr games often attract good crowds- a big plus for AF, & "better buzz", enhancing AF hegemony, attracting more participants etc.
GR clubs who have entrance charges will also suffer.

Often the U19's & Reserves like to stay for part or all of the next game to support their co-players- enhancing club camaraderie & culture.

In some good news, originally it was feared that a 2nd covid-19 wave was inevitable in winter (similar to the usual winter rise in the flu). Now, however, there are some international reports that covid-19 may not follow the usual winter rise trajectory.


















EDIT:

Covid Safety officers must complete an acredited state govt. online course before appointment.
Part of their duties, in addition to enforcing social distancing etc., will include detailed record keeping of all those who have attended at each training, & at each match.

Failure by the CSO to fully comply with these prescribed duties (whether or not a player/coach etc later tests positive) will affect GR clubs' public reputation (& reputation with its players/possibility of MSM negative press). Clubs may also not have full covid insurance coverage/expose themselves to legal liability.

These concerns are expressed by the NPL soccer club, Melb. Knights.

 
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Bunk Moreland

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The Age J. Niall 23.5

Male snr GR AF in Vic. will have its salary cap cut in half, from c. $200K to $100k pa.
(Will this cut deter some players from playing? Or alternatively, will newly unemployed persons be more keen to play?).

All clubs will need to have an accredited Covid Safety Officer present for all training & games.
(An imposition for small clubs?).

Crowds will be banned- destroying the canteen & bar takings, & other fund raising functions inside the club house.

Re juniors, " Soccer, with fewer players & less contact, might be more appealing to some kids & parents".

"I think we'll lose kids because soccer has already got a start date" said an EDFL official.


AF has far more players at training & in games, cf other sports. This makes it more likely to record at least 1 player who might test positive- thus more perilous for GR AF.

Most GR clubs have small changerooms & outdoor player benches. How, with 22 players per team (24 in jnrs)- plus coaches etc.-can social distancing be maintained?
Can after training club meals still be arranged for players? After game drinks? Club networking will suffer (VAFA will be disconsolate!).
Will the covid officer be challenged/rebuked- especially if it is raining?

Will clubs experience a significant drop in sponsorship (particularly from pubs), due to the recession?

GR AF games without spectators will be less exciting. Unlike other jnr sports, GR AF jnr games often attract good crowds- a big plus for AF, & "better buzz", enhancing AF hegemony, attracting more participants etc.
GR clubs who have entrance charges will also suffer.

Often the U19's & Reserves like to stay for part or all of the next game to support their co-players- enhancing club camaraderie & culture.

In some good news, originally it was feared that a 2nd covid-19 wave was inevitable in winter (similar to the usual winter rise in the flu). Now, however, there are some international reports that covid-19 may not follow the usual winter rise trajectory.


















EDIT:

Covid Safety officers must complete an acredited state govt. online course before appointment.
Part of their duties, in addition to enforcing social distancing etc., will include detailed record keeping of all those who have attended at each training, & at each match.

Failure by the CSO to fully comply with these prescribed duties (whether or not a player/coach etc later tests positive) will affect GR clubs' public reputation (& reputation with its players/possibility of MSM negative press). Clubs may also not have full covid insurance coverage/expose themselves to legal liability.

These concerns are expressed by the NPL soccer club, Melb. Knights.

If crowds are banned then forget it, the season will be canned. It’ll be hard enough to get going without having any match day revenue
 

BringBackTorps

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1. In mid 2020, with GR AF (& other sports) being banned in Melb. (& much of the State), due to Vic.'s disastrous hotel quarantine covid outbreaks, there were fears as to what would happen when "normality" returned to GR AF.
Would players return in the same nos.- or would many develop a greater appreciation of their increased c. 4 hrs leisure time on weekends/not having to train 2 evenings pw/spending more time with friends, spouses, & family etc.

The Age J. Niall 23.5.20



This is only a very small snapshot of snr GR AF in Melb. in March 2021- but Fitzroy FC (VAFA), one of Melb.'s biggest clubs, has increased (cf March 2020) its List nos., & will field 4 Open Age (+ U19's) men's teams (& multiple women's teams) in 2021. In 2020, it had 3 Open Age teams (+U19's).

Also, it is my understanding that Marcellin Old Boys FC (VAFA) has also increased its List nos. in 2021, cf March 2020 nos.





2. Re the nos. in jnr GR AF clubs in Melb., it has been reported in the Herald Sun on 21.3.21 that some Leagues are reporting record Club registration nos., despite the season not starting for another 3 weeks eg Yarra Junior FL (covering Melb's. mainly inner & middle nthn. & eastern suburbs).

About 25% of YJFL club players are female.
(The boom in female GR AF will continue to increase for many years, all over Aust. AFLW skill standards & scoring continue to increase, AFLW 2021 ratings are higher cf. 2020, & AFLW total club memberships have hit a record c. 23500 in 2021).






3. This VAFA report, from 2017 figures, is dated now. It highlights, however, the GR facilities' problems in Melb., which have only become worse in 2021, since GR AF is having good growth in Melb. (across all Leagues) since 2017.

The biggest growth, of course, is in female AF, & the challenges in finding sufficient ovals for male & female players to play their matches, & train, is only going to worsen.
Melb.'s sthn suburbs boasted in 2017 the highest no. of female club players.


Many Clubs have installed more powerful lights. There will be more matches on Thur. & Fri. evenings, twilight snr matches on Sat., & twilight jnr matches on Sunday.

Of course, the issue of using school ovals may eventually become a political issue, if GR clubs agitate to gain access: how much should they pay- a subsidised (by whom?) rate, or full market rates?

Golf Course useage has declined considerably in most parts of Melb.over the last decade.
Elsternwick (Melb.'s inner stn suburbs) is closing completely, to be converted to ovals & community general useage.
Northcote Golf Course (inner NE) is going from 18 holes to 9, & the redundant greens will be be converted to community use.

With the GR AF boom in Sydney, GR AF is approaching crisis levels, due to overcrowded AF ovals- but there are plenty of much underused RL & RU grounds (if 2 adjoining grounds, they could be converted into 1 AF oval).
Adelaide is also expecting GR oval shortages in the near future.

AF is also booming in the Gold Coast-Brisbane-Sunshine Coast corridor- but I'm not aware of issues with the shortage of ovals there.

In Perth, the growth in female GR Club AF has been, relatively, very poor, cf Melb. & SEQ. Probably no major problems yet.
 
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Milang_Panthers

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Add to Adelaide:

  • Hills Football League has 13 metropolitan clubs (Blackwood, Mount Lofty, Birdwood, Gumeracha, Hahndorf, Ironbank, Kersbrook, Lobethal, Torrens Valley, Onkaparinga Valley, Uraidla, Bridgewater, Kangarilla)
Most of them definitely not metro. Id say Blackwood, Lofty and Bridgewater are the only ones you could call metro and the last 2 are at a stretch (Bridgewater play half their games at Callington each year).
 

screech

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Most of them definitely not metro. Id say Blackwood, Lofty and Bridgewater are the only ones you could call metro and the last 2 are at a stretch (Bridgewater play half their games at Callington each year).
Adelaide Hills Council is part of the Adelaide Metropolitan Area

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

BringBackTorps

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Yarra Council (Inner NE Melb.) plans a massive increase in local sporting clubs' fees.

Fitzroy FC, now a very large amateur club in the VAFA, in 2019, paid $6576 to the Council- the proposed increase in 2021 will be to $31500!

For full details, see this link.



"Yarra Council... Massive Increase Cripple Local Clubs"
(Behind a paywall- can anyone open, & post here please)


Tweet responses to Fitzroy FC twitter on the issue.



If Yarra Council is successful, fewer players will be playing GR AF.
Is anyone aware of any other Councils proposing large increases?
 
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The_Wookie

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If Yarra Council is successful, fewer players will be playing GR AF.
Is anyone aware of any other Councils proposing large increases?
Yarra council is greens dominated. They fondly remember playing hackey sack or some crap during their uni days, hated the guys who played footy and soccer, and want to see an order that has literally existed since the 1880s turned on its head.

The rent being asked for Fitzroy at Brunsick St is about a third of what Carlton pay for Princes Park (City of Melbourne).
 

Bostonian

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IIRC, a few western suburbs clubs play in the Geelong Football League (Geelong is not part of Melb., &, has 2 snr. Leagues)
Geelong has 3 Leagues.

GFL is a powerhouse league. It is all teams from Geelong with Colac the only non Geelong suburb team.

BFL (Bellarine) would be next in terms of talent and a team or two that has the potential to step up to the GFL should they remodel the areas leagues and introduce promotion.

This league is all the coastal towns Torquay, Ocean Grove, Anglesea etc plus a few Geelong suburbs clubs.

GDFL is the weakest of the comps talent wise. It does however have a good financial advantage for its clubs in that they are all stakeholders in a lucrative entertainment business with pokies that pays them each a dividend each year.

Werribee Centrals is the only club from outside the Geelong district that plays in this league, it has some of the outer rural areas like Bannockburn, Inverleigh, Winchelsea etc in it.
 

BringBackTorps

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You have greatly underestimated the no. of Open Age comp. & U23 comp. male players in the VAFA. It has c.10500 Open Age & U23 comp. players= c. 350 "men's teams".



This league is all the coastal towns Torquay, Ocean Grove, Anglesea etc plus a few Geelong suburbs clubs.
I would not catagorise the Bellarine FL as a "Geelong" League.

GDFL is the weakest of the comps talent wise. It does however have a good financial advantage for its clubs in that they are all stakeholders in a lucrative entertainment business with pokies that pays them each a dividend each year.
Are their pokies the main revenue source- if not, what are the other revenue sources?
Why does the GDFL have these revenue sources, & the GFL & BFL, generally, do not?

Werribee Centrals is the only club from outside the Geelong district that plays in this league, it has some of the outer rural areas like Bannockburn, Inverleigh, Winchelsea etc in it.
IIRC, there were recently a few other Melb. WS clubs playing in Geelong Leagues eg St Albans.
Are you sure that Werribee Centrals are the sole Melb. WS club still playing in a Geelong League?

Geelong Grammar & Geelong College Old Boys play in the VAFA.
Are you aware of any Geelong area teams ever playing in the WRFL (I assume they would have little regard for their personal safety)?



The rent being asked for Fitzroy at Brunsick St is about a third of what Carlton pay for Princes Park (City of Melbourne).
Any idea of the total fees charged by Melb. City Council for each of the GR AF ovals next to Princes Park ie Crawford oval etc?

An total fees charged for NMFC's home ground, Arden St.?

And total fees charged for each of the Royal Park AF ovals?
 

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